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Reply #81: I am an Irish citizen. [View All]

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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-25-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #64
81. I am an Irish citizen.
Your simplification desperately tries to obfuscate religion as a demarcarcation in the conflict. Why?

It's there. It's real. I'm not sure why you want to suddenly eradicate centuries of religious difference on the issues. I'm an atheist. I could give a shit about transubstantion. But that doesn't meant it hasn't been hugely critical for many people, for many centuries.

I had an Irish grandmother (Catholic) and an English grandfather (Protestant). You are whistling Dixie if you don't think the issue matters. It's huge. They eloped and left for the US rather than face their families. They were both disowned. They fought about it internally their entire married lives. Why the desire to suddenly diminish an entire theological branch that's literally sundered history?
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  -N.Ireland soccer mob beats Catholic man to death Scurrilous  May-25-09 12:06 PM   #0 
  - Nice.....  47of74   May-25-09 12:07 PM   #1 
  - Well, at least she didn't have a gun to do it with  Hoopla Phil   May-25-09 12:25 PM   #2 
  - But I'm reliably informed the Irish mess wasn't/isn't about religion  dmallind   May-25-09 12:35 PM   #3 
  - yet both sides believe in the same fairy tales.  ChairmanAgnostic   May-25-09 12:43 PM   #5 
  - No no no!  dmallind   May-25-09 12:46 PM   #7 
  - this is about assholes killing someone just because. god didn't have a part in  roguevalley   May-25-09 07:50 PM   #56 
  - So, they aren't true Christians because Christians wouldn't do that?  donco6   May-25-09 08:46 PM   #63 
  - true christians don't do that. faux ones do.  roguevalley   May-26-09 02:30 PM   #149 
  - This is no different than beating a man to death because he's gay or black  HarukaTheTrophyWife   May-25-09 09:47 PM   #94 
  - you'd think fellow opressed wouldn't be so hoodwinked by the MSM  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:56 AM   #129 
  - Bullshit. This has everything to do with religion.  Hugabear   May-27-09 12:22 PM   #201 
     - It has nothing to do with Catholics and Prots thinking their religion is superior  HarukaTheTrophyWife   May-27-09 12:38 PM   #202 
  - And only 10,000 angels can dance on the head of a pin!  donco6   May-25-09 08:44 PM   #61 
     - how fun it is for you to belittle people by ignoring the real struggles and truth of their history  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:54 AM   #128 
        - *crickets*  bettyellen   May-26-09 03:18 PM   #156 
        - ?? Not me.  donco6   May-26-09 05:42 PM   #173 
           - but that's exactly whay you have done.  bettyellen   May-26-09 05:54 PM   #179 
              - It honestly would help if you said how.  donco6   May-26-09 06:09 PM   #182 
  - Ah but there's where your wrong. They perceive the "differences" as HUGH!!11!!  riderinthestorm   May-25-09 12:47 PM   #8 
  - um, no but thanks for the ver simplistic bullshit.  bettyellen   May-25-09 01:39 PM   #13 
  - Bullshit !!  galloglas   May-25-09 02:25 PM   #21 
  - And again - how are victims chosen  dmallind   May-25-09 04:30 PM   #29 
  - Absolutely correct.  donco6   May-25-09 08:43 PM   #59 
  - wow, you are unable to connect the two, or understand that the "why" determines the  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:18 AM   #121 
     - I disagree so I have no idea. Fine debate skills there!  dmallind   May-26-09 03:34 PM   #158 
        - you said British colonialism is not a problem today, and that's fucking ignorant  bettyellen   May-26-09 04:18 PM   #166 
           - I said this attack was to do with religion. his wife agrees.  dmallind   May-27-09 06:55 AM   #196 
              - you said colonialism isn;t a problem today- and that shows your total ignorance.  bettyellen   May-27-09 11:53 AM   #199 
  - Exactly -- a United Ireland  LostinVA   May-25-09 08:44 PM   #60 
  - hell no, at least not until the north agrees, worse thing would be to force the north to join the  vadawg   May-27-09 07:09 PM   #206 
  - I'm always surprised at the number of people  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 09:01 PM   #77 
  - they are parroting the MSM- who belittle the Irish and pretend it;s about religion.  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:20 AM   #122 
  - Another Irish citizen here and I say it has devolved entirely into a religious identity issue  riderinthestorm   May-25-09 09:01 PM   #78 
     - But it's not about religious differences  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 09:04 PM   #79 
     - Wow. Talk about splitting hairs.  riderinthestorm   May-25-09 09:14 PM   #86 
     - i spent five weeks in the north helping interview people in the middle of this on both sides  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:14 AM   #120 
        - Thank you for your posts on this thread  WildEyedLiberal   May-26-09 01:26 PM   #142 
           - I am mortified by the nonsense spewed here, I had to. no thank you required. :-)  bettyellen   May-26-09 01:42 PM   #144 
     - I'd say a Jersey girl living in Connecticut would know more about this than an Irish citizen  Hugabear   May-27-09 02:16 PM   #203 
     - Jaysus! "The history of the land grab matters" ??  galloglas   May-26-09 11:50 AM   #138 
        - it;s simplified by those who find it convenient to do so- and they own the media + put out this BS  bettyellen   May-26-09 03:37 PM   #160 
  - Class warfare.  redwitch   May-25-09 07:53 PM   #57 
  - The problem with Religion in Ireland, and Race in the US, is both are a Substitute for Class.  happyslug   May-26-09 10:47 AM   #130 
  - Indeed. There you have it!  galloglas   May-26-09 11:59 AM   #139 
  - No, it isn't about religion.  sabrina 1   May-26-09 07:27 PM   #188 
  - no it's about property and human rights, but go ahead and spread ignorance cuz that helps  bettyellen   May-25-09 01:38 PM   #12 
  - Religion is the red herring. It is about centuries of British colonialism in Ireland.  McCamy Taylor   May-25-09 12:57 PM   #10 
  - Yeah yeah sure. But nobody planting a bomb in a Falls Road pub  dmallind   May-25-09 01:11 PM   #11 
  - it is about the haves vs haves nots and property theft and refusal of basic human rights  bettyellen   May-25-09 01:47 PM   #17 
  - Did these people or any sectarian loons ask their victim about his wealth or rights?  dmallind   May-25-09 04:19 PM   #26 
     - wow, you if you still think this has anything to do about religous preference i can't help you.  bettyellen   May-25-09 06:20 PM   #35 
     - please read some of the other posts.  donco6   May-25-09 09:11 PM   #84 
     - i spent five weeks in Belfast interviewing people embroiled in the struggle, but thanks  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:31 AM   #123 
        - I found them interesting. But I guess that's just me. n/t  donco6   May-26-09 05:39 PM   #171 
           - LOL, the offical story has been the the same for so many years.. but if you don;t know better  bettyellen   May-26-09 05:53 PM   #178 
     - Obviously not  dmallind   May-26-09 03:38 PM   #161 
        - centuries ago? how ignorant - it;s about life in Northern Ireland to this day.  bettyellen   May-26-09 04:13 PM   #165 
           - Oh this should be fun  dmallind   May-27-09 06:51 AM   #195 
     - Yes, so given that any person in a Catholic neighborhood would be  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:48 PM   #64 
        - I am an Irish citizen.  riderinthestorm   May-25-09 09:08 PM   #81 
        - You are absolutely correct.  donco6   May-25-09 09:10 PM   #83 
        - i can;t understand your inclination to post - except to belittle people who you have no clue of.  bettyellen   May-26-09 03:00 PM   #153 
           - What ridicule?  donco6   May-26-09 05:44 PM   #174 
              - 10K angels dancing on a pin, tee hee. that;s as relevant as when republicans fight gay marrraige  bettyellen   May-26-09 05:51 PM   #176 
                 - I was just responding to the other post about how -  donco6   May-26-09 06:11 PM   #183 
                    - oh i know it's a sensless crime, but pls see my other post for why it offends so.  bettyellen   May-26-09 07:46 PM   #190 
        - Because it wasn't the religion  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 09:12 PM   #85 
        - You're trying to separate the two issues. But they aren't separate.  riderinthestorm   May-25-09 09:18 PM   #89 
        - it matters little to those there now. we aren't talking about your family two generations ago  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:36 AM   #124 
        - so lemme recap  dmallind   May-26-09 03:36 PM   #159 
           - Evidently not.  donco6   May-26-09 05:46 PM   #175 
              - 'might be involved" LOL, way to backtrack  bettyellen   May-26-09 05:55 PM   #180 
                 - For what?  donco6   May-26-09 06:11 PM   #184 
  - I love how people jump right to "you're ignorant of the situation".  donco6   May-25-09 08:58 PM   #75 
     - Religion in this case is inextricably linked to  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 09:08 PM   #82 
     - But you're confusing the original cause with today's reality.  donco6   May-25-09 09:16 PM   #88 
     - TODAY it;s about economic injustice, limited political representation, basic human rights...  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:39 AM   #125 
        - So the soccer guys went out to kill the Catholic because -  donco6   May-26-09 02:48 PM   #152 
           - good lord this all flys way over your head i'm afraid. the struggle is poor vs poor  bettyellen   May-26-09 03:04 PM   #155 
              - OK, so some real information now. Thanks.  donco6   May-26-09 06:24 PM   #185 
                 - yes, and tht'ts why it's so offensive.. because the British use the fact that Catholisicm is a wee  bettyellen   May-26-09 07:39 PM   #189 
                    - Wow.  donco6   May-26-09 10:02 PM   #193 
                       - totally accepted. i was only hard on you because i expected more. LOL. I know you are a good person  bettyellen   May-26-09 10:18 PM   #194 
     - Right on the nose.  spoony   May-26-09 03:58 AM   #102 
     - Ha you believe a wealthy person who belittles the importance of people fighting for economic justice  bettyellen   May-26-09 10:52 AM   #131 
        - Bingo.  bottomtheweaver   May-26-09 11:05 AM   #133 
           - doesn't it blow your mind that the poster didn't think for a moment to consider the source?  bettyellen   May-26-09 11:48 AM   #137 
  - thank you, the ignorance spewd here is amazing! who posts without knowing jack shit about stuff?  bettyellen   May-25-09 01:41 PM   #15 
  - And let's not forget that the Irish brought literacy to England  bottomtheweaver   May-25-09 01:53 PM   #19 
  - Well, they did. Irish scholar-monks. To continental Europe, too, and on no mean  Joe Chi Minh   May-25-09 03:26 PM   #25 
  - My ancestors (Vikings) did not ,alas ,appreciate their contributions.  Hardrada   May-25-09 05:34 PM   #33 
  - Ah well, but also left their own contributions  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:51 PM   #69 
     - Lots. My dad's family is Irish and our surname, while Irish, originates from a Norse name.  Drunken Irishman   May-25-09 09:15 PM   #87 
     - I did find it interesting  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 09:26 PM   #90 
     - Same. Mine is listed as Irish and not Norse.  Drunken Irishman   May-25-09 09:59 PM   #96 
     - What is it?  Joe Chi Minh   May-26-09 01:55 PM   #147 
        - Well, it's rare enough  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 04:00 PM   #163 
     - What is it, D. I.? Great name, by the way.  Joe Chi Minh   May-26-09 01:43 PM   #145 
     - A lot of them didn't return to Norway, that's true!  Hardrada   May-25-09 11:22 PM   #101 
     - Unfortunatey, some of them took a shine the England. Norman is simply  Joe Chi Minh   May-26-09 01:54 PM   #146 
        - How cool that you can trace your lines back that far!  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 04:03 PM   #164 
           - It was sheer luck. My mother enquired about a book in an antiquarian  Joe Chi Minh   May-26-09 07:10 PM   #187 
              - Very cool!  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 08:02 PM   #192 
     - Lots and lots, I should think. After all, they rather liked the Dublin region.  Joe Chi Minh   May-26-09 01:42 PM   #143 
     - The red hair comes from the vikings  no name no slogan   May-27-09 04:21 PM   #205 
  - Fun book!  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:50 PM   #67 
  - Great Book!  proteus_lives   May-25-09 09:32 PM   #91 
  - Too bad it didn't stick!  bottomtheweaver   May-26-09 11:17 AM   #134 
  - Celtic culture was flourishing long before  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:49 PM   #66 
     - As the extremely truculent Brendan Behan put it, ".... when the  Joe Chi Minh   May-26-09 02:01 PM   #148 
  - Thank you.  Drunken Irishman   May-25-09 04:52 PM   #31 
  - Any opportunity  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:52 PM   #70 
     - You know what? I resent this.  riderinthestorm   May-25-09 09:34 PM   #92 
        - And that's all I'm saying, as well.  donco6   May-26-09 05:52 PM   #177 
  - I do find a bit of irony  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:45 PM   #62 
     - Not that much irony - Celtic was founded by an Irish priest  muriel_volestrangler   May-26-09 06:16 AM   #110 
        - Very interesting... thanks! nt  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 07:15 AM   #111 
  - "somehow" why dont you fucking read up before psting BS like this? you prefer to wallow  bettyellen   May-25-09 01:44 PM   #16 
  - You certainly have the language - but in all the nasty posts  enlightenment   May-25-09 02:47 PM   #24 
  - there are substantive arguements all over this thread, I shouldn't need to repeat them  bettyellen   May-26-09 01:17 PM   #140 
  - touchy touchy  dmallind   May-25-09 04:20 PM   #27 
  - Actually, he's the one making the most sense here. n/t  donco6   May-25-09 08:48 PM   #65 
     - if you believe everything you hear on BBC, probably so, LOL. but I've been there and done it, fella.  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:51 AM   #127 
        - I suppose that could be where he gets it.  donco6   May-26-09 05:40 PM   #172 
  - Years ago, I had a friend who had toured Scotland and Ireland  juno jones   May-25-09 01:57 PM   #20 
  - I met a young Irishman in SF in '87  Mythsaje   May-25-09 02:30 PM   #23 
  - Exactly - and Green and Orange are labels and symbols of one thing only - religion. NT  dmallind   May-25-09 04:21 PM   #28 
     - Nope  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:54 PM   #71 
        - i really think of them as political persuasions. and many christians in ireland are neither.  bettyellen   May-26-09 10:55 AM   #132 
        - That  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 11:24 AM   #135 
           - that's exactly what the British governement wants them to believe.  bettyellen   May-26-09 11:36 AM   #136 
        - and these tribal labels represent what sides exactly?  dmallind   May-26-09 03:26 PM   #157 
           - are you just pretending to be stupid, mr "colonialism is no longer a problem"  bettyellen   May-27-09 12:17 PM   #200 
  - Religion is the source of all evil.  anonymous171   May-25-09 04:34 PM   #30 
  - No that's true - it's not  dmallind   May-25-09 05:04 PM   #32 
  - And yet, wherever there's violence, agony and death -  donco6   May-25-09 08:50 PM   #68 
     - Ever think that it is the other way around?  anonymous171   May-25-09 08:58 PM   #74 
     - And it results in - what? A shift in power?  donco6   May-25-09 09:00 PM   #76 
     - Holy hyperbole...literally...  spoony   May-26-09 04:04 AM   #103 
  - Goes past religion.  bitchkitty   May-25-09 10:24 PM   #100 
  - It's not. It's about ethnicity and sovereignty  WildEyedLiberal   May-26-09 01:24 PM   #141 
  - Waiting for the obligatory 'not a true scotsman fallacy' post.  Seldona   May-25-09 12:38 PM   #4 
  - You know I've never actually seen a NTS applied to....Scotsmen! NT  dmallind   May-25-09 12:47 PM   #9 
  - It is rather unique, at least in my experiance.  Seldona   May-25-09 06:31 PM   #36 
  - It's hard to dispute that there's a lot of N.Ireland riff-raff who've made Glasgow their new home  brentspeak   May-25-09 10:00 PM   #98 
  - Clearly this is a threat to our national safety...  CoffeeCat   May-25-09 12:44 PM   #6 
  - what? soccer?  ChairmanAgnostic   May-25-09 01:39 PM   #14 
  - "how sports rivalries inspire sectarian bloodshed..."  caraher   May-25-09 01:52 PM   #18 
  - Sports are wonderful, sports are great...  Mythsaje   May-25-09 02:28 PM   #22 
  - Oops I duped you  underpants   May-25-09 05:35 PM   #34 
  - Northern Ireland Soccer Mob Beats Catholic Man to Death  underpants   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #37 
  - Just fucking Pathetic.  donco6   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #38 
  - I'm more than beginning to agree with you, donco.  Occulus   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #45 
  - I can give that an "amen." n/t  donco6   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #46 
  - I think in this case, you and many others are looking  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #51 
  - This isn't about religion. This is about football. British football supporters have  salguine   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #47 
  - Then why are Celtic supporters Irish and Ranger supporters Protestants?  AngryAmish   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #48 
  - As I said elsewhere in this post  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #50 
  - Oh yeah? Then why did they invade a Catholic district to find someone to kill?  pnwmom   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #53 
     - Read my other posts  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #55 
        - I have. And I agree with riderinthestorm's point of view.  pnwmom   May-26-09 04:41 AM   #105 
  - Religion here is a symptom, not at all the cause  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #49 
     - Theologically speaking, you may be correct. But in the real world,  pnwmom   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #52 
        - It is, but it's not a fight based on religious differences  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #54 
           - That's just incorrect.  donco6   May-25-09 08:38 PM   #58 
           - No, it's not  JerseygirlCT   May-25-09 08:57 PM   #72 
           - But if that's all it takes to decide who's "us" and "them",  donco6   May-25-09 09:04 PM   #80 
              - you couldn;t be more wrong everyone remembers ALL that shit and it isn;t about beliefs at all  bettyellen   May-26-09 07:46 AM   #116 
           - Their religious differences really aren't that great at all  HarukaTheTrophyWife   May-25-09 09:59 PM   #97 
              - I think it is oversimplifying to say this is all about soccer violence, as other posters  pnwmom   May-26-09 04:43 AM   #106 
              - I never said it was about soccer violence  HarukaTheTrophyWife   May-26-09 06:12 AM   #109 
              - other posters are trying to clarify this is about human rights, self determination, economic injusti  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:02 AM   #119 
              - I'd say there are real religious, economic, cultural and political differences  willing dwarf   May-26-09 05:22 AM   #107 
              - Yes. As with so many of these kinds of situations  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 07:17 AM   #112 
              - lol, "self image" jesus fuck that's rich.  bettyellen   May-26-09 07:52 AM   #117 
              - One thing nobody has mentioned is that in Northern Ireland, a lot  smirkymonkey   May-27-09 10:07 AM   #197 
                 - James II wanted his British (and Irish) throne back, not 'autonomy for Ireland'  muriel_volestrangler   May-27-09 10:42 AM   #198 
              - Yes, I know. Which only makes it worse.  donco6   May-26-09 07:19 AM   #114 
                 - Yes, but do you really think that had he sworn before they  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 08:02 AM   #118 
                    - don;t waste your time- these denyers here think colonialism is somehting that WAS a problem  bettyellen   May-26-09 04:57 PM   #168 
                    - Good point; probably not.  donco6   May-26-09 05:38 PM   #170 
                       - Of course religion  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 06:47 PM   #186 
           - I actually hold Irish citizenship. My grandfather-English Protestant, my grandmother-Irish Catholic  riderinthestorm   May-25-09 08:57 PM   #73 
              - your family story is not the whole story, much as you'd like it to be.  bettyellen   May-26-09 09:42 AM   #126 
                 - But I guess it's completely diregard-able.  donco6   May-26-09 02:45 PM   #151 
                    - preconceptions? check yourself and adress my other posts. your foolish "insider" knowledge  bettyellen   May-26-09 03:02 PM   #154 
                       - It was just one experience, I apologize for mentioning it.  donco6   May-26-09 05:56 PM   #181 
                          - thank you. check (my very long) reply.  bettyellen   May-26-09 07:47 PM   #191 
  - They take their sports a little too seriously  JonQ   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #39 
  - Ooops! this is a DUPE I duped  underpants   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #40 
  - Sometimes, yes.  spoony   May-26-09 04:09 AM   #104 
  - All I will say is...  SoxFan   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #41 
  - If they  MichaelHarris   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #42 
     - Now you're in for it. n/t  donco6   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #43 
        - I know  MichaelHarris   May-25-09 07:25 PM   #44 
  - That sucks.  proteus_lives   May-25-09 09:35 PM   #93 
  - Making this atrocity even more surreal, this is after Rangers actually WON their game  brentspeak   May-25-09 09:56 PM   #95 
  - I don't have the time for this, so I'll just rec all of bettyellen's and JerseyGirlCT's posts  HarukaTheTrophyWife   May-25-09 10:02 PM   # 
  - Seconded  WildEyedLiberal   May-26-09 02:31 PM   #150 
  - Fuck Henry VIII  AlphaCentauri   May-25-09 10:02 PM   #99 
  - This started long before Henry VIII  JerseygirlCT   May-26-09 07:18 AM   #113 
  - Ah. Team Sports and Religion  panzerfaust   May-26-09 05:35 AM   #108 
  - the Old Firm has brought around this kind of fuckwittery before...  Blue_Tires   May-26-09 07:22 AM   #115 
  - So do we collectively blame religion, sports, nationalism or warm beer...?  LanternWaste   May-26-09 03:40 PM   #162 
  - Horrible  LeftishBrit   May-26-09 04:44 PM   #167 
  - Wow  Dramarama   May-26-09 05:02 PM   #169 
  - Longest football thread on DU ever. Bit charred on the edges,  flvegan   May-27-09 02:25 PM   #204 

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