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Reply #67: Because 44 year old moms spend so much time playing first person shooters. [View All]

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wickerwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-06-09 02:59 PM
Response to Reply #11
67. Because 44 year old moms spend so much time playing first person shooters.
This seems like a kind of strange case to bring up desensitization to violence.

She was mentally ill. She had access to a gun.

She should have had access to health care and she shouldn't have had access to a gun. Those seem to be the most relevant issues here.
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  -Mom kills son, then self at Casselberry shooting range Hugabear  Apr-06-09 08:11 AM   #0 
  - WTF?...................  CrownPrinceBandar   Apr-06-09 08:18 AM   #1 
  - She had "a history of mental illness", according to the article  muriel_volestrangler   Apr-06-09 09:25 AM   #21 
  - she had a history of mental illness and probably was not on or couldn't  bdamomma   Apr-06-09 09:38 AM   #25 
  - No no no, she has a right to arm herself, mentally ill or not.  Barack_America   Apr-06-09 12:09 PM   #51 
  - *snort* nt  Critters2   Apr-06-09 06:23 PM   #90 
  - Classy, making fun of the mentally ill. Your parents must be proud.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Apr-07-09 01:40 AM   #123 
     - he is not making fun of the mentally ill. he is mocking the stance of the nra  La Lioness Priyanka   Apr-07-09 08:42 AM   #131 
        - Do you have a link to the NRA supporting gun rights for the mentally ill?  Fire_Medic_Dave   Apr-07-09 02:48 PM   #140 
  - I definitely might say that... nt  JerseygirlCT   Apr-07-09 07:26 PM   #149 
  - They've always been insane, around here.  The Backlash Cometh   Apr-07-09 08:29 AM   #129 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Apr-07-09 12:54 PM   #137 
     - You're funny when you're mad......n/t  CrownPrinceBandar   Apr-07-09 01:48 PM   #139 
  - Good Lord. nt  sufrommich   Apr-06-09 08:18 AM   #2 
  - Yep more guns!!  proud2BlibKansan   Apr-06-09 08:26 AM   #3 
  - I'm quite glad that we have the right to own guns.  Somawas   Apr-06-09 08:50 AM   #9 
  - Agree. nt  Justyce   Apr-06-09 08:52 AM   #10 
  - I know, I know......  boilinmad   Apr-06-09 09:05 AM   #13 
  - Guns keep you safe  Threedifferentones   Apr-08-09 06:38 PM   #195 
     - Guns, Jobs.....  boilinmad   Apr-09-09 09:37 AM   #210 
        - Things you need  Threedifferentones   Apr-09-09 09:51 PM   #212 
  - Are you glad she was able to shoot her kid in the head?  proud2BlibKansan   Apr-06-09 04:54 PM   #71 
     - Uh, Yeah, right!  rd_kent   Apr-06-09 07:27 PM   #96 
     - Sure. It's ever so much neater than an ax to the head.  Somawas   Apr-07-09 07:24 AM   #125 
        - Sure-exactly the same scenario- except she kills him at an ax throwing range.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 01:33 AM   #151 
  - It's Not the Gun ...  earthside   Apr-06-09 08:59 AM   #11 
  - When is the last time a video game killed anyone? Or a movie, or a heavy-metal record, etc?  Hugabear   Apr-06-09 09:06 AM   #14 
  - When video games  Abq_Sarah   Apr-07-09 06:41 PM   #145 
  - guns are tools. the hands that use the guns for murder are the problem  havocmom   Apr-09-09 08:11 AM   #208 
  - The cause is neither video games nor guns.  InvisibleTouch   Apr-06-09 10:01 AM   #33 
  - "Practical purpose"  heliarc   Apr-08-09 05:23 PM   #187 
  - Guns are a HUGE part of the culture of violence.  liberalmuse   Apr-06-09 10:04 AM   #35 
  - The interesting thing, is it's usually the gun owners going crazy and killing people.  superconnected   Apr-07-09 04:34 PM   #141 
  - Because 44 year old moms spend so much time playing first person shooters.  wickerwoman   Apr-06-09 02:59 PM   #67 
  - She should have had access to health care and she shouldn't have had access to a gun.  TXRAT2   Apr-06-09 06:44 PM   #92 
  - Yes you can  proud2BlibKansan   Apr-06-09 04:55 PM   #72 
  - Nice post, Tipper.  BulletproofLandshark   Apr-07-09 08:34 AM   #130 
  - It's not the video games, it's not the 'American culture of violence'  Pharlo   Apr-09-09 09:35 AM   #209 
  - Women have also drowned their kids, should we ban water  The Straight Story   Apr-06-09 04:29 PM   #69 
     - We need water  proud2BlibKansan   Apr-06-09 04:57 PM   #73 
     - Dont need tubs. You can't drown in a shower, so the tub must be banned.  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 04:58 PM   #74 
        - I need mine to bathe my dog when it is cold outside  proud2BlibKansan   Apr-06-09 05:04 PM   #78 
           - You can shower with a dog, even a big one.  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 05:10 PM   #80 
              - My elderly mother couldn't stand in a shower  proud2BlibKansan   Apr-06-09 06:09 PM   #86 
                 - We neeed to mandate safer tubs, they sense attempted drowinings  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 06:14 PM   #87 
                    - Yawn  primavera   Apr-06-09 08:20 PM   #104 
                       - So with my 8 years, can I keep mine. Anyone who did BIT?  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 09:46 PM   #106 
                          - You keep working on that grammar  primavera   Apr-06-09 10:09 PM   #108 
                             - Finish up the drug ban, then move on..You are 50% right (typical)  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 10:17 PM   #109 
                             - Ehrlich, Du warst in der Schweiz? Ich auch!  primavera   Apr-06-09 10:44 PM   #113 
                                - ich habe keine ahnung, of how much german I forgot.  Pavulon   Apr-07-09 06:58 PM   #146 
                             - Switzerland doesn't have gun nuts?  IDFbunny   Apr-07-09 07:27 PM   #150 
     - Maybe she could have killed her son at a water balloon throwing range.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 01:34 AM   #152 
        - Tylenol kills people  Pavulon   Apr-08-09 05:03 PM   #183 
           - But this young man was shot in the head at a shooting range. Water & asprin are not in the picture.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 11:25 PM   #199 
  - Firearm suicides in the US: approx. 17000 in 2005 (CDC).  SurfingScientist   Apr-06-09 08:28 AM   #4 
  - The price *can* be high, but the others can be as well.  poboyross   Apr-06-09 09:04 AM   #12 
     - I fully agree, guns are not the reason for suicides, at most a facilitator...  SurfingScientist   Apr-06-09 09:24 AM   #20 
     - One quick thing for you SurfingScientist.....  poboyross   Apr-06-09 10:29 AM   #39 
        - Thank you for that information poboyross!!!  SurfingScientist   Apr-06-09 10:44 AM   #41 
        - Tennesee is carefull...... not exactly  russ1943   Apr-07-09 12:19 AM   #120 
           - You're basing your assumption on one article.....  poboyross   Apr-07-09 11:45 AM   #134 
     - Crazy people and guns  primavera   Apr-06-09 09:43 AM   #28 
        - Great post.primavera and spot on. nt  sufrommich   Apr-06-09 09:57 AM   #30 
        - People are in a constant state of flux, anyone is capable of anything  poboyross   Apr-06-09 10:20 AM   #38 
        - A thoughtful post  primavera   Apr-06-09 01:19 PM   #56 
           - Very thoughtful post primavera, as was #28. "a weapon of mass  FailureToCommunicate   Apr-06-09 10:17 PM   #111 
              - Thank you, how very kind of you!  primavera   Apr-06-09 10:46 PM   #114 
                 - Upon further research: NOT 13,000 gun deaths/year, more like 30,000 according to  FailureToCommunicate   Apr-07-09 08:25 AM   #127 
                    - Yep, and of those 30,000...  primavera   Apr-07-09 10:51 AM   #133 
                       - Geesh. You're dead on, of course, about 9/11 and inaction to gun violence.  FailureToCommunicate   Apr-07-09 01:00 PM   #138 
        - Many times people who wave "red flags" are ignored..  spin   Apr-06-09 06:38 PM   #91 
        - But how to know...  primavera   Apr-06-09 07:16 PM   #94 
           - No, I actually thought your post was interesting and...  spin   Apr-06-09 10:29 PM   #112 
              - Woo hoo!  primavera   Apr-06-09 10:53 PM   #115 
              - All too often we take sides like two football teams...  spin   Apr-06-09 11:45 PM   #118 
              - Good post spin.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Apr-08-09 02:48 AM   #158 
        - Homicides are overwhelmingly committed by people who are barred from possessing firearms.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Apr-08-09 02:45 AM   #157 
  - o-k-a-a-a-y -- and AT the shooting range --  xchrom   Apr-06-09 08:29 AM   #5 
  - Drowned in the bathtub, drove into a lake...a lake  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 04:46 PM   #70 
     - How many children have been murdered in the past ten years by a parent driving into a lake?  Missy Vixen   Apr-06-09 08:55 PM   #105 
        - More drowned in tubs and pools. You people dont care WHY? Really. How Backwards.  Pavulon   Apr-07-09 07:05 PM   #147 
           - Many 20 year old men are drowned by 44 year old women in tubs & pools too.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 01:58 AM   #155 
              - Wife runs over husband. He is just as fucking dead. Ban running over people now.!  Pavulon   Apr-08-09 05:06 PM   #184 
                 - I never said I wanted to ban guns- I'm pointing out that average people won't buy your analogy.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 05:34 PM   #188 
                    - Look to social medicine, drug reform, and mental health reform..  Pavulon   Apr-08-09 05:38 PM   #189 
                       - And the most powerful gun lobbies & conservatives in the USA support NONE of those things, do they?  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 05:43 PM   #191 
                          - Firearms ARE regulated. Sure when a case pops up (like Dishonorable != felony)  Pavulon   Apr-08-09 05:48 PM   #192 
                             - My argument stands- the gun lobby offers few or no viable solutions to counterbalancing gun violence  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 06:02 PM   #193 
                                - I understand you position..but  Pavulon   Apr-08-09 06:06 PM   #194 
                                   - We agree. But, again, if I follow your path, I will get the guns, but none of social medicine, etc.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 06:55 PM   #198 
  - I go to that range a couple of times a month  Mojorabbit   Apr-06-09 08:31 AM   #6 
  - Why does this weird stuff always happen in Florida?  E-Z-B   Apr-06-09 08:39 AM   #7 
  - Yes.  timtom   Apr-06-09 10:02 AM   #34 
  - because it's the cutting edge of the new slave state.  Hannah Bell   Apr-06-09 05:21 PM   #83 
  - exercising her 2nd amendment rights nt  msongs   Apr-06-09 08:44 AM   #8 
  - Video Games  LeFleur1   Apr-06-09 09:13 AM   #15 
     - Yeah. I'm sure this middle-aged mother was spending way too much  RaleighNCDUer   Apr-06-09 09:43 AM   #27 
        - "ma, are you making dinner tonight?"  Javaman   Apr-09-09 09:42 AM   #211 
  - It's official: society has come unglued. nt  Javaman   Apr-06-09 09:19 AM   #16 
  - One of my additional duties as a 1LT was "Range Officer" - High Stress.  ShortnFiery   Apr-06-09 09:20 AM   #17 
  - What the HELL is going on with people?  Tim01   Apr-06-09 09:22 AM   #18 
  - Maybe it's the times, maybe it's this State  Lorien   Apr-06-09 08:17 PM   #102 
  - Wasn't there somebody here telling me how this never happens...  rfranklin   Apr-06-09 09:22 AM   #19 
  - People never drown at bath tub stores either.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 02:22 AM   #156 
  - Happiness is a warm gun..  Fumesucker   Apr-06-09 09:27 AM   #22 
  - Here's a suggestion:  ShortnFiery   Apr-06-09 09:32 AM   #23 
  - Great way to keep people from going to the shrink..  Fumesucker   Apr-06-09 09:41 AM   #26 
  - The people who need to "go to a shrink" often feel as you - they have no respect for ...  ShortnFiery   Apr-06-09 09:48 AM   #29 
     - Actually I've "been to a shrink" quite a bit..  Fumesucker   Apr-06-09 09:57 AM   #31 
        - OH ... then please excuse me, I now surmise that you were playing "devil's advocate"  ShortnFiery   Apr-06-09 10:01 AM   #32 
           - That's OK..  Fumesucker   Apr-06-09 10:05 AM   #36 
              - Yes, there are no easy answers.  ShortnFiery   Apr-06-09 10:10 AM   #37 
  - But I thought the argument for guns is that people need them  Critters2   Apr-06-09 01:30 PM   #59 
  - what the hell is going on? people just turning the gun on their families and other people??  bdamomma   Apr-06-09 09:36 AM   #24 
  - Can we go a day with out a mulitiple homicide shooting or Parent Kills Children / Self shooting?  paparush   Apr-06-09 10:39 AM   #40 
  - media is gonna scrape up every gun story they can get right now.  FudaFuda   Apr-06-09 10:52 AM   #42 
  - Your concern is duly noted  Hugabear   Apr-06-09 11:03 AM   #43 
  - you don't think overreporting by the media is making it worse?  FudaFuda   Apr-06-09 11:51 AM   #48 
     - WTF is "over-reporting"? There's reporting the news  Critters2   Apr-06-09 01:28 PM   #58 
        - I meant more of how the media covers mass shootings  FudaFuda   Apr-06-09 01:45 PM   #61 
  - So your argument is that gun violence is so commonplace it's not worth reporting?  Barack_America   Apr-06-09 12:20 PM   #52 
  - hardly. but i don't think this story would've 'gone national' if guns weren't 'hot' right now. nt  FudaFuda   Apr-06-09 12:26 PM   #53 
     - This story is from a local paper.  Barack_America   Apr-06-09 12:36 PM   #54 
     - You're right. Chicago Tribune picked it up though. nt.  FudaFuda   Apr-06-09 12:50 PM   #55 
     - Yep, waiting to hear about the black and hispanic victims of drug law driven murder  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 05:03 PM   #77 
  - Yep, that damn 1st Amendment is getting in the way of the 2nd Amendment.  Critters2   Apr-06-09 01:26 PM   #57 
     - well, that's not what I meant  FudaFuda   Apr-06-09 01:49 PM   #62 
  - Who's the wiseass who thought handing guns to the mentally ill was a good idea?  derby378   Apr-06-09 11:10 AM   #44 
  - Can you look at someone and tell if they're mentally ill or clinically depressed?  Hugabear   Apr-06-09 11:26 AM   #45 
  - At the shooting range, they always ask for some sort of ID  derby378   Apr-06-09 11:30 AM   #47 
     - Thats NCIC  TXRAT2   Apr-06-09 06:22 PM   #89 
        - National Instant Check System, NICS.  benEzra   Apr-06-09 11:11 PM   #116 
  - Yesterday, you were the wiseass, don't you remember?  primavera   Apr-06-09 01:36 PM   #60 
  - See post #47 (n/t)  derby378   Apr-06-09 04:27 PM   #68 
  - The NRA and the gun worshipers.  baldguy   Apr-06-09 05:15 PM   #82 
  - I have seen guns do a lot of good believe it or not.  BrightKnight   Apr-06-09 06:57 PM   #93 
  - I appreciate you sharing your story  derby378   Apr-06-09 10:17 PM   #110 
  - Who's the dumbass who thinks "the mentally ill" are a monolith?  Posteritatis   Apr-08-09 06:51 PM   #197 
  - A mother killing her 20 year old son. That is so sad.  Kali   Apr-06-09 11:26 AM   #46 
  - And those sick human beings getting guns. nt  Critters2   Apr-06-09 02:30 PM   #63 
     - sure, but addressing causes rather than just symptoms actually solves problems  Kali   Apr-06-09 02:37 PM   #64 
        - What say we make it hard for them to get guns AND get them treatment? nt  Critters2   Apr-06-09 02:52 PM   #65 
        - Both have their place  primavera   Apr-06-09 02:58 PM   #66 
  - Time to start taking the gun away from the psychos.  Xenotime   Apr-06-09 11:57 AM   #49 
  - I believe that if we research all that was going on with this family, MANY people close  ShortnFiery   Apr-06-09 12:05 PM   #50 
  - Yet another example of how owning firearms increases the risk of harm to people and their families  depakid   Apr-06-09 05:02 PM   #75 
  - Ban bathtubs and the internet now, mommy can drown her kids  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 05:05 PM   #79 
     - Fallinmg back on reductio ad absurdum is all the fireams proliferation folks have left  depakid   Apr-06-09 05:36 PM   #84 
     - That and the reality that stupid gun laws = republican majority  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 06:06 PM   #85 
        - Fear tactics  depakid   Apr-06-09 06:19 PM   #88 
           - No king here, amend the constitution  Pavulon   Apr-06-09 09:49 PM   #107 
              - If you understood American law- you wouldn't keep making ridiculous statements like that  depakid   Apr-07-09 12:20 AM   #121 
                 - Good Luck with that. Were you around in 1995?  Pavulon   Apr-07-09 07:07 PM   #148 
     - They were not bathing-they were at a shooting range. The son was too big to be drowned.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 01:38 AM   #153 
        - Run him over, stab, golf club, give him antifreeze (or hundreds of fatal chemicals)  Pavulon   Apr-08-09 05:08 PM   #185 
           - I think the NRA and conservatives are the ones who "better get busy" with solutions to gun violence.  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 06:43 PM   #196 
  - Mom's mentally ill and off her meds. I know...let's go to the range and fire off some rounds!  Raster   Apr-06-09 05:02 PM   #76 
  - It sounds like he was just trying to spend some quality time with his mother.  BrightKnight   Apr-06-09 07:18 PM   #95 
     - No worries  primavera   Apr-06-09 08:05 PM   #97 
     - Maybe it's just me, but I question the "quality" of such time.  Commie Pinko Dirtbag   Apr-07-09 11:57 AM   #135 
  - Another RKBA advocate exercises her rights.  baldguy   Apr-06-09 05:13 PM   #81 
  - If everyone at a shooting range had a gun this would never happen.  Bluebear   Apr-06-09 08:06 PM   #98 
  - Good one - will be totally lost on the gun nuts...  TankLV   Apr-06-09 08:16 PM   #101 
  - Well, it WAS the "appropriate" site for such a thing, after all...  TankLV   Apr-06-09 08:14 PM   #99 
  - hmm  Pithy   Apr-06-09 08:14 PM   #100 
  - Well ... If he just had a gun to defend himself, this would not have happened ....  Trajan   Apr-06-09 08:18 PM   #103 
  - What we need is bullet-proof vests. Then again, they could still drown us in bath tubs. n/t  Dr Fate   Apr-08-09 01:56 AM   #154 
  - Just a thought, have the police ruled out the possibility  benEzra   Apr-06-09 11:18 PM   #117 
  - I suspect that you are more or less correct about both points.  BrightKnight   Apr-07-09 12:34 AM   #122 
  - I agree.  benEzra   Apr-07-09 07:04 AM   #124 
  - That crossed my mind, too. n/t  MaineDem   Apr-07-09 07:32 AM   #126 
  - There's video now - Liveleak - 1st shot definitely not an accident. nt  FudaFuda   Apr-07-09 08:45 AM   #132 
     - The range banned her because she attempted suicide there 2 years ago.  BrightKnight   Apr-07-09 12:02 PM   #136 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Apr-07-09 12:10 AM   #119 
  - Okay, guys. Now you know why this place freaks me out.  The Backlash Cometh   Apr-07-09 08:28 AM   #128 
  - Not really.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Apr-08-09 02:50 AM   #159 
  - Mom left suicide note, thought "end of world was coming".  Barack_America   Apr-07-09 05:23 PM   #142 
  - If only people in shooting ranges were allowed to carry guns.  Critters2   Apr-07-09 05:54 PM   #143 
  - RELIGIOUSLY INSANE mom kills son, then self at Casselberry shooting range  mitchum   Apr-07-09 06:35 PM   #144 
  - Families that shoot together....  LeftHander   Apr-08-09 09:16 AM   #160 
  - Mom kills son, then self at shooting range (left suicide note)  sabra   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #161 
  - You know, why does someone intent on committing suicide feel the need to take a loved one with them?  Mudoria   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #162 
  - I don't either, although you can see how religious views play into it.  phantom power   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #163 
  - The 'heaven/hell' suggests religious mania.  RaleighNCDUer   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #165 
  - I support the right of loonies to suicide themselves  No More Bushbots   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #166 
  - Some of us loonies have to make the decision of whether or not to kill ourselves daily  shadowknows69   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #176 
     - She was very seriously mentally ill and apparently not getting the help  BrightKnight   Apr-08-09 05:19 PM   #186 
  - I have to go to Hell so there may be 1000 years of peace on Earth" = Christian crazy. nt  thereismore   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #174 
  - For one thing, suicide is a very hostile act, with hostility aimed at those who are close.  damntexdem   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #169 
  - Mental illness. I actually feel like I can understand it, a little.  jobycom   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #173 
  - Crazy + guns = bad  grytpype   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #164 
  - Simple but true. Crazy + (no guns) = less bad, help still possible  FailureToCommunicate   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #180 
     - unless she puts rat poison in his cupcakes - n/t  BrightKnight   Apr-08-09 03:44 PM   #181 
  - I would really like to know why a person with a gun was allowed  madmom   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #167 
  - I asume the act took all of a couple seconds. What could they do?  phantom power   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #168 
  - It would not be unusual for an adult to look over the shoulder of  RaleighNCDUer   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #170 
  - I saw a different video, I think the original surveillance video, that showed the  madmom   Apr-08-09 05:41 PM   #190 
  - I have shot there and all I can think is  Mojorabbit   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #178 
  - Its a good thing the kid hadn't had HIS gun taken away by Obama yet. Oh, wait...  FailureToCommunicate   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #179 
  - It was all over in an instant. The guy was horrified and screaming for help.  BrightKnight   Apr-08-09 04:53 PM   #182 
  - Crazy motherfuckers. Why can't we get all the "crazies" together...........  pattmarty   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #171 
  - Go to the link and then to the MSNBC news report. She left audio tapes of what she...  Moonwalk   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #172 
  - Yes. And an ideology to torture yourself with. nt  thereismore   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #175 
  - Bad brain chemicals, yes, but induced by whom?  bottomtheweaver   Apr-09-09 12:00 AM   #202 
  - what a horrid story - thank god he likely did not know what hit him - just horrid  tomm2thumbs   Apr-08-09 01:14 PM   #177 
  - And now she's dead. Convenient.  bottomtheweaver   Apr-08-09 11:59 PM   #201 
  - Let me put this delicately:  bottomtheweaver   Apr-08-09 11:56 PM   #200 
  - Oh Lord, back away from THAT koolaid. Nobody is going to take away our guns. REALLY!  ShortnFiery   Apr-09-09 09:59 PM   #213 
     - Oh there's no danger of that, I'm confident. It's a little more sinister  bottomtheweaver   Apr-10-09 03:52 PM   #215 
  - 'I'm the anti-Christ': shooting range murder-suicide  panzerfaust   Apr-09-09 08:05 AM   #203 
     - In this case, the term "gun nut" is apropos  jpak   Apr-09-09 08:05 AM   #204 
     - Actually probably just a nut who used a gun  stray cat   Apr-09-09 08:05 AM   #205 
     - no, just plain 'nut'  havocmom   Apr-09-09 08:05 AM   #206 
     - So many unhinged people in this country  BeyondGeography   Apr-09-09 08:05 AM   #207 
        - And many of THEM are "US" or some of those "CLOSE TO US." nt  ShortnFiery   Apr-09-09 10:00 PM   #214 
 

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