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Reply #62: Look, we've had Prince Bandar lallygagging on White House sofas, and peering [View All]

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-21-07 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
62. Look, we've had Prince Bandar lallygagging on White House sofas, and peering
over Bush's shoulders at U.S./Bushite war plans. We've had Defense Department employees passing secrets to Israel. We've had oil corporations meeting secretly with Cheney and carving up Iraq's oil fields among them, a full two years before the invasion of Iraq. We've had every manner of skulduggery and treason in this country. And Ahmadinejad approaches us on honest ground--in a public forum--and we won't even listen?

I might hate the guy. I really don't have enough information, due to war profiteering corporate monopoly of the news, to properly judge his words, behavior or policies, or those of his countrymen. There are many things that I HEAR ABOUT the Iranian politicians and mullahs, in the "news," that I don't like at all. Hell, if I were in New York, I might even picket his speech, on the matter of women's rights in Iran. But protesting, picketing, countering, arguing--these are not the same thing as SUPPRESSING. Trying to influence Iran to change a bad policy is not the same as refusing them a public forum, in a potential war situation, caused entirely by our own illegitimate, despicable, fascist government. Of all the Islamic countries in the Middle East, Iran seems to be to have the MOST potential for change, and for progress in human rights. It is probably the Islamic country most WORTH listening to, and trying to understand. And if it is truly our "enemy"--which Dick Cheney would have us believe--that is all the more reason to hear what they have to say BEFORE we come to blows, and hundreds of thousands of INNOCENT people are dead.

And we must never forget that you cannot end a war, or prevent one, by talking to your friends. You MUST talk to your "enemies," real or perceived. You must LISTEN to your "enemies," real or perceived--and listen well. How else is there to prevent unnecessary harm and death? By turning your country into an armed, medieval fortress, like Israel has? Is that tolerable? Is that even affordable? Or by stuffing your fingers in your ears, like Bush and Cheney--and the Betrayus Congress?

In this country, theoretically, and Constitutionally, WE are the deciders. As much as the White House and Congress have damaged our rightful power, it is still our right, and always will be, to decide who is a threat to us, who our "enemies" are, who we should be allied with, and for what purpose, and what OUR YOUNG PEOPLES' LIVES should be put at risk for, and what our OUR TAX DOLLARS should spent upon. And to make those decisions, we need free and open information, and discussion and dialogue, both internally, and with every country in the world, every leader, and every people. We need to hear all of their ideas, as well as we can. And if a leader like Ahmadinejad--with whom we don't agree on many things, but who has been demonized by the warmongers--has the courage to come speak to us, what fools are we to deny him a forum? Should we foreclose a possible avenue toward peace in this way?

I'm old enough to remember Nikita Krushchev's visit to the U.S. in 1959, in an era when mutual annihilation was never closer, and I will never forget how revealing it was, in so many ways. It was brilliant of our government not to forbid Krushchev free travel here and an open news media mike to the American people. The thing that most impressed me about Krushchev, at that time (I was 14), was his childlike temper tantrum at being denied a visit to Disneyland (because of security concerns, so the story went), and his odd reaction to the "Can Can" dancers on a Hollywood movie set. He was this little bear of a man, who thought the can-can dancers were "disgraceful," but was likely just still pissed off that this had been substituted for Sleeping Beauty's Castle and the Pirates of the Caribbean.

What I learned was that, a) the people of the Soviet Union were deprived--starved of entertainment and fun, symptom of their economic hardship--they had no Disneyland, or anything comparable; b) they possess childlike wonder, like anyone else, even their leaders; c) Soviet communism had puritanical and repressive tendencies. (I realize now, but didn't then, that Krushchev's reaction to the "can-can" dancers was probably hypocritical, something he felt obliged to say for the folks back home, and to emphasize American "decadence"--as well as being an expression of his irritation at being denied Disneyland.) These, my youthful perceptions of Krushchev, HUMANIZED my understanding of the Soviet Union, and helped form my opinion that the Soviet Union was not a place I would want to live, but also it kindled compassion for the vast poor population of that country and its satellites. I could better understand their revolution. I did not want them to be nuked. I wanted them to become more democratic and more prosperous.

And I was proud of our democracy, that we could let an "enemy" leader speak freely, and travel fairly freely (except for Disneyland) inside our own country, with no fear of what he had to say.

I also remember when Krushchev banged his shoe on the table at the UN and said, "We will bury you!" It did not make me fearful--I just thought he was kind of silly--a peasant, an uneducated man--and I felt sorry for the Russians having to put up with such a leader.

Wikipedia has an interesting post on that incident:

"Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev famously used an expression generally translated into English as 'We will bury you!' ("Мы вас похороним!", transliterated as My vas pokhoronim!) while addressing Western ambassadors at a reception in Moscow in November, 1956.<1> The translation has been controversial because it was presented as being belligerent out of context. The phrase may well have been intended to mean the Soviet Union would outlast the West, as a more complete version of the quote reads: 'Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will bury you'a meaning more akin to 'we will attend your funeral' than 'we shall cause your funeral'.

"Several online sources incorrectly claim that he made this statement at the United Nations General Assembly on October 11, 1960, when he is said to have pounded the table with his shoe, or with an extra shoe he had brought with him explicitly for that purpose. <2> (Occasionally these incorrect reports give the date October 12, the date this incident was reported in most newspapers.)

"Speaking some years later in Yugoslavia, Khrushchev himself remarked, 'I once said, "We will bury you," and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you', <3> a nod to the popular Marxist saying, 'The proletariat is the undertaker of capitalism.' Khrushchev later went on to explain that socialism would replace capitalism in the same manner that capitalism itself supplanted feudalism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_will_bury_you

---------------------------

It seems as if our war profiteering corporate news monopolies have done something similar to Ahmadinejad, regarding his remark about destroying Israel. I've read reports that he DIDN'T say that, but rather that Israel will be destroyed by its own alliance with western powers. And IF that is what he really said, I would tend to agree. Israel is not forging its own path in the Middle East. It is relying on Bush Junta aggression, and massive U.S. military aid. It seems to be controlled by war profiteers, just as we are. Thus diplomacy and positive action, and Israel finding its own way, are stunted--and the armaments and the tensions escalate, making Israel--a tiny country surrounded by unfriendly or hostile neighbors--all the more vulnerable, for its association with a very hostile, aggressive and ill-intentioned U.S. In this circumstance, it is a fair prediction that Israel will not survive. If the U.S. attacks Iran, Israel could be the first casualty (after many Iranian victims). But even short of that catastrophe, Israel's militarism and isolation, and its oppression of the Palestinians, do not bode well for improving relations with neighbor countries, and undertaking the kinds of diplomatic initiatives that a tiny country like Israel MUST undertake, in its own neighborhood, to create optimum conditions for its survival.

Is Ahmadinejad's bluster REAL, or is it part mistranslation, or political pandering? We need to know, and the best way to find out is to let him speak freely on our own soil. Is Iran a threat, or is it just scared? Listening to its fieriest leader may clue us in. What are Iran's internal problems? How better to understand them, than having their leader come here, and speak? Why NOT humanize the situation, the way Krushchev's visit did? What have we to lose? Absolutely nothing!
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  -Columbia won't cancel Ahmadinejad speech spotbird  Sep-21-07 12:09 PM   #0 
  - Hopefully, they let him speak and handle it better than the did the  pampango   Sep-21-07 12:10 PM   #1 
  - i thought that went about how it should have...  PittPoliSci   Sep-21-07 12:20 PM   #4 
     - I am sure that many would like to see this go the same way.  pampango   Sep-21-07 12:35 PM   #6 
        - i just like to see the unrest.  PittPoliSci   Sep-21-07 01:07 PM   #8 
           - What would happen if someone did the same thing to this one as others did to Minutemen?  John Kerry VonErich   Sep-21-07 09:07 PM   #69 
           - hilarity ensues?  PittPoliSci   Sep-22-07 02:13 AM   #78 
              - gotta point.  John Kerry VonErich   Sep-22-07 06:03 AM   #81 
           - Yes, our Dear Leaders tell us that we've always been at war with Iran and Iran caused 9/11  ShortnFiery   Sep-22-07 06:41 AM   #82 
  - there is a thread here from yesterday that said "Columbia university cancels Ahmadinejad speech"  chimpsrsmarter   Sep-21-07 12:12 PM   #2 
  - This AP article is the latest off the newswires so it is most likely the current 'status'.. eom  Purveyor   Sep-21-07 12:17 PM   #3 
  - They would let bush/cheney speak  BonnieJW   Sep-21-07 12:32 PM   #5 
  - I thought we were "spreading Democracy" around the world???  shaniqua6392   Sep-21-07 12:59 PM   #7 
  - Good for them (n/t)  ProudDad   Sep-21-07 01:25 PM   #9 
  - We should talk to our "adversaries"  varun   Sep-21-07 01:35 PM   #11 
  - Good for Columbia, but they seem to keep changing their minds.  sinkingfeeling   Sep-21-07 01:33 PM   #10 
  - Bravo to them for not caving in to the right-wing hate machine  BushOut06   Sep-21-07 01:49 PM   #12 
  - This issue isn't left vs. right....everybody should hate this guy.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 02:21 PM   #17 
     - Even so  goodgd_yall   Sep-21-07 04:03 PM   #58 
  - Unfortunately, I see little difference between him and Hitler.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 02:17 PM   #13 
  - Iran is not our enemy.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 02:20 PM   #15 
  - No, but Ahmadinejad certainly is.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 02:39 PM   #18 
     - I don't claim to speak for liberals.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 02:50 PM   #20 
     - You got half your shit wrong.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:06 PM   #28 
        - You wrote it in post #13.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:07 PM   #29 
           - Check the post and check your eyes.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:12 PM   #34 
              - I did.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:14 PM   #36 
     - Please explain why Iran is OUR enemy  BushOut06   Sep-21-07 02:57 PM   #22 
     - Iran caused 9-11.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 02:58 PM   #23 
     - Yeah, supporting insurgents killing our soldiers is a real laugh.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:01 PM   #24 
     - You're certainly a laugh.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:03 PM   #26 
     - The United States is the only one allowed to supply arms  BushOut06   Sep-21-07 03:12 PM   #33 
     - Yeah. pretty much.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:19 PM   #38 
        - Why do you think Ahmadinejad's supplying insurgents?  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:20 PM   #39 
        - If weapons suppliers are evil, put the US at the top of the list!  Ignis   Sep-21-07 04:37 PM   #61 
     - Put down the ad hominem crack pipe and give us some arguments  Psephos   Sep-21-07 11:24 PM   #72 
     - Guess you get your information from the same news sources that said Iraq had WMD. I don't know what  IsItJustMe   Sep-21-07 03:21 PM   #40 
     - Supporting insurgents who kill US soldiers....  SOS   Sep-21-07 07:11 PM   #65 
        - Who's worse?  ovidsen   Sep-21-07 11:47 PM   #75 
     - And  edwardlindy   Sep-21-07 06:00 PM   #63 
     - Their human rights record, for one.  G Gordon Libby   Sep-21-07 03:03 PM   #25 
     - Oh this is rich.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:04 PM   #27 
     - You just described a whole bunch of countries  BushOut06   Sep-21-07 03:07 PM   #30 
     - EXACTLY!  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:11 PM   #31 
        - So now you're saying Iran IS our enemy?  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:12 PM   #35 
        - NO!  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:30 PM   #44 
           - Uh huh.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:38 PM   #47 
        - So that makes him our ENEMY?  BushOut06   Sep-21-07 03:14 PM   #37 
        - The guy is despicable,  spotbird   Sep-21-07 03:30 PM   #43 
        - Re: "Liberals should hate the shit out of this guy ..."  mallard   Sep-22-07 06:42 AM   #83 
     - Beef  Thothmes   Sep-22-07 06:34 PM   #84 
     - Do the world a favor  Malikshah   Sep-21-07 09:10 PM   #70 
  - Ah, Hitler! H-m-m. And WHO has slaughtered half a million people in Iran's  Peace Patriot   Sep-21-07 03:28 PM   #42 
  - So Bush = Mahmoud, and America = Nazi Germany?  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:43 PM   #49 
     - Bush is considerably worse than Ahmadinejad.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:44 PM   #50 
     - Congratulations!  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:52 PM   #52 
        - Bush has killed 1.2 million people.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:56 PM   #54 
           - And by that logic, FDR & Truman were much worse than Hirohito & Mussolini.  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 04:06 PM   #59 
              - No, more of a comparison between Bush and Hirohito, Mussolini.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 04:07 PM   #60 
     - You are accusing Ahmadinejad of SAYING things; Bush has slaughtered hundreds  Peace Patriot   Sep-22-07 03:39 AM   #79 
  - I see alot of difference  ksilvas   Sep-22-07 12:09 AM   #77 
  - YAY!  Joanne98   Sep-21-07 02:18 PM   #14 
  - Don't ya know, the Betrayus Congress opposes free speech, and anybody who is  Peace Patriot   Sep-21-07 02:21 PM   #16 
  - So in the Iran-America situation, we (the ones who aren't denying the Holocaust) are the bad guys?  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 02:49 PM   #19 
     - No you don't.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 02:54 PM   #21 
     - And I'm making what up.....?  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:36 PM   #46 
        - Yeah, I don't believe you.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:39 PM   #48 
           - It's okay...  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 03:47 PM   #51 
              - Hey, you're the one who's a war-monger.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 03:53 PM   #53 
                 - Hahahaha....  liberalsoldier5   Sep-21-07 04:00 PM   #56 
                    - I do.  Bornaginhooligan   Sep-21-07 04:01 PM   #57 
                    - Can you translate it into Sanscrit?  ret5hd   Sep-21-07 09:19 PM   #71 
     - Let's hear from Ahmadinejad and begin a discourse of civility  0007   Sep-21-07 03:11 PM   #32 
     - Please show some proof of the existence of these "Iranian funded insurgents."  Lance_Boyle   Sep-21-07 03:21 PM   #41 
     - Look, we've had Prince Bandar lallygagging on White House sofas, and peering  Peace Patriot   Sep-21-07 05:31 PM   #62 
  - free speech means sometimes having to hear things you dont want to  lionesspriyanka   Sep-21-07 03:33 PM   #45 
  - There's no such thing as a right to be heard.  John Kerry VonErich   Sep-21-07 09:05 PM   #68 
  - Yes, I wish they felt that way at University of California  Psephos   Sep-21-07 11:27 PM   #73 
     - Best post on the thread. Short and to the point.  pampango   Sep-22-07 05:29 AM   #80 
        - Agree.......Well said  Robson   Sep-22-07 08:35 PM   #87 
  - Good  goodgd_yall   Sep-21-07 03:59 PM   #55 
  - Good for them. n/t  ozone_man   Sep-21-07 06:26 PM   #64 
  - Bravo Columbia!  Vidar   Sep-21-07 07:17 PM   #66 
  - Columbia U to let Iran president speak  cal04   Sep-21-07 09:02 PM   #67 
  - Why stop the students from learning?  Timex   Sep-21-07 11:33 PM   #74 
  - Freedom of Speech, is American not Agreeing with Speech. n/t  ksilvas   Sep-21-07 11:56 PM   #76 
  - Freedom of Speech  Thothmes   Sep-22-07 06:39 PM   #85 
  - Student tasered at Ahmadinejad speech  LeftHander   Sep-22-07 08:13 PM   #86 
  - Ha ha good parody  Pesky_Hound   Sep-23-07 06:22 PM   #89 
  - Good, let him speak.  Nutmegger   Sep-23-07 01:01 AM   #88 
  - His speech will also give his opponents an unprecedented opportunity  Jed Dilligan   Sep-23-07 07:27 PM   #91 
  - Good for them  Jed Dilligan   Sep-23-07 07:24 PM   #90 
 

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