You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Reply #54: Not really easy actually [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-25-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #10
54. Not really easy actually
Edited on Mon Jun-25-07 06:44 PM by CreekDog
To impeach in the House (short of removing him),

218 of 233 Democrats need to vote in favor of the impeachment (okay, possible, but it will take a while to build that case into the public record and into the congressional record for up or down votes)

then...

67 Senators will need to vote in favor of removing from office...
You would need 49 Democratic Senators to vote for it
Joe Lieberman would need to vote for it
Tim Johnson would need to vote for it
then 16 Republicans would need to vote for it

Then he could be removed.

Moral victory may be possible, but to actually get as close as you can to removal is an uphill slog, the process could run until the next inauguration. That might be worthwhile, but if you think he is going to be removed --that is very, very doubtful even with the wind at the Democrats back.

The reality check I'm asking for here is:

1) Do you understand how much the odds are against impeachment of Cheney or Bush? I'm not asking if it's possible, I'm asking if you know the odds against it happening, which are substantial.
2) If you cannot impeach either of them, do you want to trade any progress on anything else in favor of the proceedings that are far from a slam-dunk?

It is not wrong and it is not being an accomplice to figure these things into the decision of whether to pursue or not.

My problem is that many in favor are not realistic about the chances...they seem to say it's a foregone conclusion that once the charges are out there the votes will come. Not necessarily. In order for proceedings to even occur the following needs to happen on the Democratic side:

1) Those in favor of proceedings must recognize and publicly acknowledge the odds against success and pledge not to villanize their own party if the proceedings don't succeed because they can't get enough Republican votes to impeach/remove
(in other words, if you are going to go after Reid and Pelosi like some did on the supplemental, which failed because of a Republican president, yes they could have tried harder, but the greater portion of the blame must not fall on them. If not, they are not going to make themselves the whipping boys for impeachment failing --certainly not if it comes from other Democrats, especially while the media will be making them whipping boys undoubtedly).

2) Those opposed to the proceedings must accept that their agenda is unlikely to progress in any area, including withdrawal from Iraq (which is stalled either way, actually) and decide this is a worthwhile tradeoff. Impeachment proceedings will consume everyone else's time. Plus, in 2008, it is likely that Dems will not have agenda accomplishments to run on, including this because it is unlikely to be successful.

So, I would be torn between proceeding on this (because I have thought out the substantial risks) versus deciding that despite them, it would be worthwhile.

My issue to those take-no-prisoners is:
1) will you support the leaders even if they can't get the Republicans to get removal done?
2) will you villanize them if they try but can't get it done and in the process can't get any of their other agenda through because this is an all-consuming effort?
3) will you accept that in 2008, we will still be in Iraq at the same level of effort?

Otherwise, why should Pelosi and Reid bother? If history is any guide, they will try to get what they can and impeachment supporters will at first be very supportive of the efforts, then will turn on them when it fails and when the rest of the agenda fails to get enacted, not because of a veto, but because this is all consuming if you really, really want to win.

The point is to be successful requires risk and I don't see those in favor explaining that they understand the risk and that they will support the effort and the leadership if the risk is taken and not successful.

Only when that meeting of the minds occurs will any movement in that direction happen. Otherwise, don't count on it. Pelosi already got thanked by Code Pink for trying to get the troops home once and Reid got thanked in vicious terms for pushing the envelope farther on Iraq funding than any of us even thought possible 1 year ago. In fact, Reid got more votes for a withdrawal than anyone thought were there --although it was just a bare majority still --and nowhere near impeachment numbers mind you. Why go to the mat for folks that scold you for your best efforts?

They are after all politicians. They can do what is right, but many will go after them because they "are not listening to the voters", but if they do that and decide that "listening" leads them in a different direction than many activists, they will be told they are craven politicians for not doing what is right. Some people here are putting the leadership in an impossible circumstance.

I don't expect everyone here to agree, but at least look at the political and moral equation simultaneously and recognize there are tradeoffs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
  -(Sen.) Dodd tells crowd in Rochester impeaching Cheney won't help sabra  Jun-25-07 10:49 AM   #0 
  - Well, without even reading this, IT WOULD HELP ME! nt  babylonsister   Jun-25-07 10:51 AM   #1 
  - Does it matter AT ALL what the voting public wants it's representatives to do?  Atman   Jun-25-07 10:51 AM   #2 
  - "other issues...to address and focus on"  hvn_nbr_2   Jun-25-07 04:42 PM   #50 
  - Mr. Dodd, it is not about 'appetite'. It is about the Rule of Law  ixion   Jun-25-07 10:54 AM   #3 
  - If they don't Impeach then they are accomplices  Bandit   Jun-25-07 10:54 AM   #4 
  - Impeachment is the only answer!  ananda   Jun-25-07 10:54 AM   #5 
  - Pathetic.  AndyA   Jun-25-07 10:55 AM   #6 
  - Think of all the paperwork an impeachment would create... eom  Tunkamerica   Jun-25-07 09:31 PM   #63 
     - They aren't doing this to avoid paperwork  CreekDog   Jun-25-07 11:18 PM   #66 
  - Dodd, you bloatway bastard. I used to be impressed.  antifaschits   Jun-25-07 10:58 AM   #7 
  - Cheney's "not upholding it as well as he could?"  Harvey Korman   Jun-25-07 10:59 AM   #8 
  - What they fail to understand is that Impeach wraps all the crimes  Norquist Nemesis   Jun-25-07 10:59 AM   #9 
  - That's bullshit, Cheney can be removed pretty quickly if a force  whistle   Jun-25-07 11:00 AM   #10 
  - Not really easy actually  CreekDog   Jun-25-07 06:28 PM   #54 
  - How can any sane person  BridgeTheGap   Jun-25-07 11:03 AM   #11 
  - Maybe I'm Just Dumb  Lupeyg2   Jun-25-07 11:04 AM   #12 
  - exactly.There is a constitutional issue here that Dodd is spitting on  librechik   Jun-25-07 01:22 PM   #31 
  - Sorry; Dodd just lost me  hyphenate   Jun-25-07 11:10 AM   #13 
  - sometimes they come back....America's Horror Story  Solly Mack   Jun-25-07 11:10 AM   #14 
  - BushCo must have pictures of him in compromising positions with farm animals  melody   Jun-25-07 11:13 AM   #15 
  - ROTFL ~  goclark   Jun-25-07 12:50 PM   #28 
  - trying to lose his 60 supporters, too?  Wickerman   Jun-25-07 11:24 AM   #16 
  - YES IT WOULD HELP! IMPEACH THE WAR CRIMINALS AND SEND THEM TO THE HAGUE!  AndyTiedye   Jun-25-07 11:25 AM   #17 
  - If he's got a problem with impeachment, he should de-fund the office  Kagemusha   Jun-25-07 11:26 AM   #18 
  - "Won't help the country"? Upholding the Constitution of this country,  wienerdoggie   Jun-25-07 11:26 AM   #19 
  - The repukes gut the soul of the american public, yet  Javaman   Jun-25-07 11:32 AM   #20 
  - Dodd's part of the scam.  blackops   Jun-25-07 11:46 AM   #21 
  - BINGO! Dodd is an ACTOR in the stage production called Congress!  maryallen   Jun-25-07 04:44 PM   #51 
  - One more fucking collaborator.  Vidar   Jun-25-07 11:54 AM   #22 
  - Why is he saying no to impeachment before a single hearing has taken place  Cass   Jun-25-07 12:12 PM   #23 
  - When War crimes have been confirmed by SCOTUS, hearings. . .  pat_k   Jun-25-07 02:12 PM   #35 
  - Senator Dodd is totally wrong about this.  ladjf   Jun-25-07 12:15 PM   #24 
  - fuck impeachment.. arrest the whole administration  BrokenBeyondRepair   Jun-25-07 12:21 PM   #25 
  - Sorry, but we can't escape our duty to enforce our sovereign authority. . .  pat_k   Jun-25-07 02:19 PM   #37 
  - We the people are not asking for your opinion, Senator. We're giving you ours.  WritersBlock   Jun-25-07 12:37 PM   #26 
  - they're certainly not paying any attention to the polls, that's for sure  Morgana LaFey   Jun-25-07 03:47 PM   #47 
  - It would help ME.  aquart   Jun-25-07 12:45 PM   #27 
  - He is a f---ing crook and should be impeached...it will do a lot of good  movonne   Jun-25-07 12:53 PM   #29 
  - If we don't hold these criminals accountable then we will never have legitimacy  mod mom   Jun-25-07 01:03 PM   #30 
  - I'm sorry, but I disagree with my only senator here  JerseygirlCT   Jun-25-07 01:41 PM   #32 
  - He obviously has no concept of duty, and can't read polls. . .  pat_k   Jun-25-07 01:49 PM   #33 
  - They haven't done shit on anything else, either  BlueStater   Jun-25-07 01:53 PM   #34 
  - Hells bells, Dodd, it sure wouldn't hurt.  tanyev   Jun-25-07 02:14 PM   #36 
  - If Dodd refuses to do his Constitutional duty  depakid   Jun-25-07 02:21 PM   #38 
  - The threat "Demand impeachment or kiss your seat goodbye" . .  pat_k   Jun-25-07 02:29 PM   #39 
  - It's time to start a movement to chat "WIMP" when these Dems say such things.  NoodleyAppendage   Jun-25-07 02:48 PM   #40 
  - what a pathetic person. I am going to write to him today. If I understand  roguevalley   Jun-25-07 02:51 PM   #41 
  - The point of impeachment, Sen. Dodd, is that we don't want another BushCo ever again!  8_year_nightmare   Jun-25-07 02:56 PM   #42 
  - I'm about sick of all these people throwing out the rule of law  redqueen   Jun-25-07 03:00 PM   #43 
  - Thank you.  closeupready   Jun-25-07 03:40 PM   #45 
  - Senator Dodd, you are one of the reasons it has come this far, and you should be ashamed.  originalpckelly   Jun-25-07 03:02 PM   #44 
  - It's called the RULE OF LAW, Senator Dodd.  fooj   Jun-25-07 03:45 PM   #46 
  - It would help the Constitution!  tbyg52   Jun-25-07 04:12 PM   #48 
  - Dodd, buh-bye!  The Backlash Cometh   Jun-25-07 04:22 PM   #49 
  - Dodd re Cheney: "He has not been upholding the Constitution as well as he could."  Mister Ed   Jun-25-07 05:39 PM   #52 
  - Could we just send him hunting by himself?  youngdem   Jun-25-07 05:52 PM   #53 
  - Cheney causes more damage every SECOND he sits in that office...  annabanana   Jun-25-07 06:32 PM   #55 
  - Yes, villanize Dodd, please  CreekDog   Jun-25-07 06:50 PM   #56 
  - yeah, yeah, yeah  ldf   Jun-25-07 09:06 PM   #62 
  - First, they did do sh*t, take a look at the reocord of proposals and votes on them  CreekDog   Jun-25-07 11:17 PM   #65 
  - Hitler had his enablers that allowed him to become Fuehrer. Dodd is an enabler of dictatorship  IndianaGreen   Jun-26-07 02:44 AM   #69 
  - Let's face it ...  BattyDem   Jun-25-07 07:03 PM   #57 
  - What's your evidence they are not interested?  CreekDog   Jun-25-07 08:12 PM   #58 
  - It's not just Dodd ... it's all of Congress  BattyDem   Jun-26-07 01:37 PM   #73 
  - If impeachment is voted on in the Senate how will Dodd vote?  CreekDog   Jun-25-07 11:12 PM   #64 
     - What difference does it make? It's not just Dodd  BattyDem   Jun-26-07 02:00 PM   #74 
  - Man, that was disappointing....  SquireJons   Jun-25-07 08:22 PM   #59 
  - So, you won't support him on anything?  CreekDog   Jun-25-07 08:40 PM   #60 
  - No Wonder congress has low approval ratings  u2spirit   Jun-25-07 08:55 PM   #61 
  - Dodd is another stupid Beltway Democrat that just doesn't get it!  IndianaGreen   Jun-25-07 11:24 PM   #67 
  - Dodd can add. The Dems do not have a big enough majority to make impeachment work. nt  MookieWilson   Jun-26-07 07:59 AM   #71 
     - There weren't the votes to impeach Nixon either!  IndianaGreen   Jun-26-07 01:15 PM   #72 
  - "There are too many other issues out there the American public were  Boo Boo   Jun-26-07 02:43 AM   #68 
  - Doddering Dodd's Just Parrotting Their False Memes  Senator   Jun-26-07 07:56 AM   #70 
  - Crowd tells Dodd, "Try it anyway!"  eppur_se_muova   Jun-26-07 02:27 PM   #75 
  - jesus christ! Do these DC douchebags know that repeating that shit makes them look like cowards?  yurbud   Jun-26-07 02:42 PM   #76 
 

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC