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Reply #77: Calling others names makes your argument seem like it can't stand on its own [View All]

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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-19-07 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #56
77. Calling others names makes your argument seem like it can't stand on its own
ThinkingWoman is not saying there's no warming going on. She's saying there's no definitive understanding of what's causing it. There's a range of scientific opinions. Naturally, we think those scientists whose views reflect our own to be future Nobel winners, and those whose views are contrary to be mendacious shills. :eyes: Thankfully, science values the clash of ideas much more than politics.

ThinkingWoman has earned her nickname, IMO.

History is full of examples of how incomplete understanding of complex systems caused us to make them worse through misguided efforts to make them better. (Cane toads, anyone?)

The scientifically prudent thing to do currently is to assume that human activity is having a big impact on climate change, and work right now to diminish the most obvious components of that. But we also have to be clear we don't know for sure if we're targeting the right thing. Perhaps human activity is the sole agent, perhaps it's one of several influences; further research, better models, and increased understanding of nuances in the interaction between ocean and atmosphere will eventually yield the answer. But not quite yet.

What if it's not greenhouse gases, but agriculture, that's responsible for the greatest effect? What if it's a misunderstood consequence of high-atmosphere aerosols, and not CO2? What part does cyclic variation in solar output play? Have we altered surface albedo in ways that cause Earth to hang on to more solar radiation, and if so, can we reverse it? What if we spend too much time focused on a lesser contributor because of a political dogma and ignore the thing that's actually more important?

These are just off the top of my head. A knowledgeable climatologist would have many more. The climatologist would also point out that climate is a classic example of a chaotic, or nonlinear, system (in pop terms, it's subject to the "butterfly effect"). The stock market, human emotional states, and the flow of traffic are also well-known examples. The salient feature of a chaotic system is that common-sense ideas of cause-and-effect do not apply. One cannot predict the outcome from the initial conditions. (People interested in a greater understanding of how the world actually works might consider reading James Gleick's book Chaos: Making A New Science.)

I completely agree we need to, as you put it, stop fucking up the planet. You'll never find anyone who disagrees we shouldn't be "fucking up the planet." Unfortunately, each person you ask will have a different answer for what exactly that entails.

We should promote, not inhibit, the exchange of scientific debate so that we can find the answers in the shortest possible time. The application of critical thinking skills will help identify the worthiest ideas. Squelching debate will not.


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  -Weather Channel Climate Expert Calls for Decertifying Global Warming Skeptics jefferson_dem  Jan-17-07 09:21 PM   #0 
  - perspective  kristopher   Jan-17-07 09:53 PM   #1 
  - Thanks for the info. That's helpful to know.  jefferson_dem   Jan-17-07 10:03 PM   #2 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Jan-18-07 05:21 AM   #5 
  - Inhoff is a fox guarding the henhouse.  vickitulsa   Jan-18-07 12:55 AM   #3 
  - My but that certainly explains a LOT!  Roland99   Jan-19-07 08:38 AM   #48 
  - Douchebags of Corporate Propoganda and a pocket full of coins  Supersedeas   Jan-19-07 02:24 PM   #82 
  - Climate Code,eh?  Party Line   Jan-18-07 02:21 AM   #4 
  - I certainly hope so  BushOut06   Jan-18-07 06:06 AM   #6 
  - Ya, and they should be thrown in the deepest darkest  aceman2373   Jan-19-07 08:55 AM   #50 
     - Yeah, like anyone said that.  Zhade   Jan-19-07 02:59 PM   #86 
  - cast out the non-believers  melm00se   Jan-18-07 07:59 AM   #7 
  - For a meteorologist to deny global warming is like an M.D.  Coventina   Jan-18-07 08:14 AM   #8 
  - Nice straw man!  hatrack   Jan-18-07 09:02 AM   #9 
  - not really...  melm00se   Jan-18-07 10:27 AM   #12 
     - Keep propping them up  Robbien   Jan-18-07 11:08 AM   #15 
     - not at all  melm00se   Jan-18-07 11:42 AM   #16 
     - Good denier support post  Robbien   Jan-18-07 11:58 AM   #18 
        - Good suppression of opposing points-of-view post  Psephos   Jan-18-07 11:53 PM   #40 
           - Point out where she called for suppressing alternate arguments.  Zhade   Jan-19-07 03:13 PM   #91 
              - Acts of suppression do not require calling for suppression  Psephos   Jan-19-07 03:17 PM   #92 
                 - Calling out people for denying established fact in scientific debates...  Zhade   Jan-20-07 04:08 PM   #129 
                    - what established fact?  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 05:13 PM   #134 
                       - Okay, here's where I laugh at your grasp of science.  Zhade   Jan-20-07 10:05 PM   #142 
                          - Circular reasoning.  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 10:46 PM   #144 
                             - Link below  Kber   Jan-21-07 12:30 PM   #155 
                                - Pretty link, but...  thinkingwoman   Jan-21-07 03:56 PM   #160 
     - My boss doubts global warming is a serious effect  krispos42   Jan-20-07 11:34 AM   #124 
     - Global Warming "skeptics" SHOULD be ridiculed and minimized.  Shakespeare   Jan-19-07 06:35 PM   #107 
  - Belief has nothing to do with it - science deals with fact, not belief.  Zhade   Jan-19-07 03:04 PM   #87 
  - Hilarious! A little humor when the sky is falling..literally, LOL!!!  goforit   Jan-21-07 04:44 PM   #165 
  - I was waiting for this and wonder about the agenda for such a bizarre response.  The Stranger   Jan-22-07 08:32 AM   #171 
  - It's the language that poisons the debate. The phrase "believe in global warming" creates  truthisfreedom   Jan-18-07 09:08 AM   #10 
  - Exactly!  dropkickpa   Jan-18-07 09:41 AM   #11 
  - Not believing in global warming strikes me a bit like saying  kestrel91316   Jan-18-07 05:17 PM   #33 
  - When most people hear "witches", though, they don't immediately think of people who practise Wicca.  IntravenousDemilo   Jan-19-07 02:32 PM   #83 
  - The question isn't whether or not to "believe" in global warming  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 08:26 AM   #43 
  - Thank you. It's not about belief at all - climate change exists. It's undeniable.  Zhade   Jan-19-07 03:07 PM   #88 
  - the critics have lost all credibility  gasperc   Jan-18-07 10:40 AM   #13 
  - Yeah, it's the  zidzi   Jan-18-07 11:53 AM   #17 
  - When did they have any?  Zhade   Jan-19-07 03:08 PM   #89 
  - Wow!!!!111  jpak   Jan-18-07 10:51 AM   #14 
  - Dangerous slope..  atomicdawg38   Jan-18-07 12:21 PM   #19 
  - Nobody is denying them the right to speak.  Coventina   Jan-18-07 01:29 PM   #21 
  - You took the words right off of my keyboard  Lorien   Jan-18-07 02:37 PM   #27 
  - Sure they are  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 08:29 AM   #44 
  - Please provide links showing where the scientific community  Coventina   Jan-19-07 09:49 AM   #51 
  - Please provide a response  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 03:23 PM   #93 
     - Okay then, about the "muzzling" issue, please see my post #85  Coventina   Jan-19-07 04:35 PM   #98 
     - That's your opinion.  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 05:26 PM   #105 
        - How is it "muzzling"?  Coventina   Jan-20-07 09:16 AM   #118 
           - Asked and answered. nt  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 11:03 AM   #122 
              - Indeed, they are still free to speak. n/t  Coventina   Jan-20-07 12:27 PM   #126 
                 - In your opinion. nt  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 05:05 PM   #130 
     - WE will only completely understand the mechanism of climate  PaulaFarrell   Jan-20-07 01:34 PM   #127 
        - I completely disagree with your premise  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 05:10 PM   #133 
           - And I completely disagree with yours  PaulaFarrell   Jan-21-07 04:30 AM   #147 
           - Forecasters cannot predict a tornado?  thinkingwoman   Jan-21-07 07:17 AM   #149 
           - And I completely disagree with yours  PaulaFarrell   Jan-21-07 04:44 AM   #148 
  - Actually those piles are in the same league  depakid   Jan-19-07 10:54 AM   #61 
     - Great! Can you explain...  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 03:26 PM   #94 
        - I believe that if you open your mind and your Google browser, you'll find  Doremus   Jan-19-07 09:52 PM   #110 
           - Things like "rate"and "acceleration"  depakid   Jan-20-07 12:12 AM   #113 
           - Assessments like "haven't had much science background"  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 08:17 AM   #116 
              - The point is: There is no debate.  depakid   Jan-20-07 06:44 PM   #135 
                 - Given all WHAT evidence?  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 09:15 PM   #141 
                    - Here's what you may need  depakid   Jan-21-07 09:57 AM   #152 
                       - See my post #160  thinkingwoman   Jan-21-07 04:06 PM   #161 
                          - "...wasting my time reading"  depakid   Jan-21-07 06:18 PM   #166 
                             - MOTSBS  thinkingwoman   Jan-22-07 07:41 AM   #167 
                                - You have no case AND you refuse to read!  depakid   Jan-22-07 09:26 AM   #174 
                                   - Baseless accusation  thinkingwoman   Jan-23-07 09:14 PM   #176 
           - Good thing I didn't hold my breath.  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 08:22 AM   #117 
  - I do not think that scientists are denying global warming . . .  toopers   Jan-19-07 09:53 AM   #52 
     - There is no debate- not among scientists  depakid   Jan-21-07 11:12 AM   #153 
        - This is just not true.  thinkingwoman   Jan-21-07 04:09 PM   #162 
           - you asked why the earth went through a warming spell 400 years ago...  WindRavenX   Jan-21-07 04:19 PM   #163 
              - Finally, someone admits it on this thread  thinkingwoman   Jan-22-07 08:00 AM   #168 
                 - you misunderstood me  WindRavenX   Jan-22-07 07:31 PM   #175 
                    - 99%?  thinkingwoman   Jan-23-07 09:28 PM   #177 
  - We know better...  Chemical Bill   Jan-18-07 01:29 PM   #22 
  - I'm not saying that  atomicdawg38   Jan-18-07 01:49 PM   #23 
     - Science isn't something...  Chemical Bill   Jan-18-07 02:06 PM   #26 
     - Science has HAD their debate. It's over.  crispini   Jan-18-07 04:03 PM   #29 
     - Where the hell have you been? The debate is over.  kestrel91316   Jan-18-07 05:19 PM   #35 
        - The debate is not over  Nederland   Jan-19-07 10:59 AM   #63 
           - I read scientific journals  NickB79   Jan-19-07 01:34 PM   #74 
              - Get ready for a long wait.  Coventina   Jan-19-07 01:40 PM   #75 
              - You don't get it  Nederland   Jan-19-07 02:19 PM   #79 
                 - I have read that website before  NickB79   Jan-20-07 04:27 AM   #114 
                    - Disagree  Nederland   Jan-21-07 01:55 AM   #145 
  - They can dissent ALL THEY WANT. They just shouldn't expect a  kestrel91316   Jan-18-07 05:18 PM   #34 
  - Is there any proof that the Weather Channel actually promotes this?  yardwork   Jan-18-07 01:03 PM   #20 
  - Who Cares?  Red1   Jan-18-07 02:03 PM   #25 
  - Did you follow the link to the original comments?  Taoschick   Jan-20-07 02:32 PM   #128 
  - It's high time we had some accountability in this country  depakid   Jan-18-07 02:00 PM   #24 
  - The point is...even if pollution isn't causing warming, what's the harm in curbing emissions anyway?  NoodleyAppendage   Jan-18-07 03:50 PM   #28 
  - Woo-hoo! Someone with the same perspective  ItNerd4life   Jan-24-07 12:34 PM   #181 
  - The AccuWeather Effect...  Junkdrawer   Jan-18-07 04:41 PM   #30 
  - Stripped of their scientific certification if they express skepticism?  lynne   Jan-18-07 04:53 PM   #31 
  - There's a big difference between being a skeptic and a denier  Coventina   Jan-18-07 05:14 PM   #32 
  - The scientific community has not reached consensus about the cause  Psephos   Jan-19-07 12:10 AM   #41 
     - The issue of this thread has been global warming deniers  Coventina   Jan-19-07 08:10 AM   #42 
     - If man is not the primary cause  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 08:36 AM   #47 
        - Um, if you have been reading any of the recent scientific findings  Coventina   Jan-19-07 08:43 AM   #49 
        - I'm not stupid  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 03:29 PM   #95 
           - So what are you saying?  Coventina   Jan-19-07 04:31 PM   #97 
           - It's true you never said I was stupid  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 05:30 PM   #106 
              - Volcanic and solar activity are what scientists have found  Coventina   Jan-20-07 09:29 AM   #119 
                 - Nice try  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 11:03 AM   #121 
                    - P.S. Comparing the LIA to current warming cycle  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 11:12 AM   #123 
                       - You brought up the LIA in the first place!  Coventina   Jan-20-07 12:25 PM   #125 
                          - No I didn't. I did not ever type: little ice age. nt  thinkingwoman   Jan-20-07 05:07 PM   #132 
                             - Okay, I owe you an apology  Coventina   Jan-21-07 12:00 PM   #154 
                                - Hey don't worry about it  thinkingwoman   Jan-22-07 08:04 AM   #169 
           - No. You're not stupid. You're just wrong. Dead wrong.  Zhade   Jan-20-07 10:20 PM   #143 
              - No one has proven anything...until now.  thinkingwoman   Jan-21-07 07:29 AM   #150 
        - "there is no action that can be taken"?!  Nihil   Jan-19-07 10:32 AM   #56 
           - Thank you.  Coventina   Jan-19-07 10:47 AM   #58 
           - Calling others names makes your argument seem like it can't stand on its own  Psephos   Jan-19-07 01:52 PM   #77 
           - There is a difference between "stifling debate" and "allowing fraud".  Nihil   Jan-22-07 08:15 AM   #170 
           - Reading comprehension  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 03:34 PM   #96 
              - Comprehension also requires clarity in writing  Nihil   Jan-22-07 08:36 AM   #172 
                 - Apology accepted, but not needed  thinkingwoman   Jan-23-07 09:48 PM   #178 
                    - Thanks  Nihil   Jan-24-07 07:11 AM   #179 
     - Well said  thinkingwoman   Jan-19-07 08:33 AM   #45 
     - Vikings  kristopher   Jan-19-07 08:04 PM   #108 
     - It was called Greenland by Eric the Red to get gullible suckers to settle there.  Odin2005   Jan-20-07 07:03 PM   #137 
  - Scientists are never wrong.  fastfowardtheater1   Jan-18-07 05:42 PM   #37 
  - no, it's about them not being scientists  WindRavenX   Jan-18-07 07:42 PM   #39 
     - Response  Nederland   Jan-19-07 10:29 AM   #55 
        - Unfortunately, politics have been injected by our government  Coventina   Jan-19-07 10:50 AM   #59 
        - Question  Nederland   Jan-19-07 10:55 AM   #62 
           - Here you go:  Coventina   Jan-19-07 11:06 AM   #64 
           - The problem is  Nederland   Jan-19-07 11:14 AM   #66 
              - The problem is, the people who are governing the world's biggest polluter  Coventina   Jan-19-07 11:17 AM   #67 
                 - You didn't answer the question  Nederland   Jan-19-07 11:23 AM   #68 
                    - In this particular instance, it is an AMS "Seal of Approval"  Coventina   Jan-19-07 11:27 AM   #69 
                    - Let me get this straight  Nederland   Jan-19-07 11:33 AM   #70 
                       - Who said anything about "silencing" them?  Coventina   Jan-19-07 11:43 AM   #71 
                       - you're not getting any links from that poster  WindRavenX   Jan-19-07 11:51 AM   #73 
                       - I have no links  Nederland   Jan-19-07 02:14 PM   #78 
                          - I thought your point was that important voices were being silenced.  Coventina   Jan-19-07 02:24 PM   #81 
                             - No  Nederland   Jan-19-07 02:35 PM   #84 
                                - Well, it seems we are trying to compare apples & oranges  Coventina   Jan-19-07 02:49 PM   #85 
                       - It sounds to me like what the poster is saying  depakid   Jan-19-07 11:47 AM   #72 
                       - the AMS isn't going to silence anyone.  Bill McBlueState   Jan-19-07 10:07 PM   #112 
                    - Scientific facts sifts them out  SemperEadem   Jan-19-07 05:14 PM   #101 
           - no, that's not at all what's being debated here  SemperEadem   Jan-19-07 05:11 PM   #100 
        - this isn't about people who publish  Bill McBlueState   Jan-19-07 10:05 PM   #111 
  - Please name one peer-reviewed study of the "Global Freeze" theory, as you call it  hatrack   Jan-18-07 07:26 PM   #38 
  - *Crickets chirping*  hatrack   Jan-19-07 08:34 AM   #46 
  - Here you go  Nederland   Jan-19-07 09:54 AM   #53 
     - Global dimming is real and somewhat ameliorates the effects of global warming  Ezlivin   Jan-19-07 10:52 AM   #60 
     - And if you actually read that report  NickB79   Jan-19-07 01:41 PM   #76 
     - Got a link?  Nederland   Jan-19-07 02:20 PM   #80 
        - From your own Wiki link above  NickB79   Jan-20-07 04:34 AM   #115 
     - that link contains theories that are now ralmost completed rejected  WindRavenX   Jan-19-07 04:43 PM   #99 
     - No shit  Nederland   Jan-19-07 05:15 PM   #102 
        - predicting is not the same as having evidence  WindRavenX   Jan-19-07 05:18 PM   #104 
           - Read Post #38  Nederland   Jan-21-07 01:58 AM   #146 
              - Actually, I'm not  WindRavenX   Jan-21-07 01:08 PM   #156 
     - wikpedia isn't exactly encylopedia brittanica  SemperEadem   Jan-19-07 05:18 PM   #103 
  - Much like an aeronautical engineer  LanternWaste   Jan-24-07 10:46 AM   #180 
  - This should be done in all fields of science.  Seldona   Jan-18-07 05:23 PM   #36 
  - She's 100% right  enough already   Jan-19-07 10:12 AM   #54 
  - Looks like she is backing off slightly  Nederland   Jan-19-07 10:37 AM   #57 
  - That doesn't sound like backing off to me.  Zhade   Jan-19-07 03:11 PM   #90 
  - More info on Marc Morano--the tool who posted this story.  Bridget Burke   Jan-19-07 11:10 AM   #65 
  - for all the trolls in this thread...there has not been free speech practiced here for  NotGivingUp   Jan-19-07 08:31 PM   #109 
  - Recommendation for those interested in climate change:  darkblue   Jan-20-07 09:45 AM   #120 
  - why are you stifling skeptics?  WindRavenX   Jan-20-07 05:07 PM   #131 
  - What the fuck? Everyone has the right to air skepticism...  originalpckelly   Jan-20-07 06:55 PM   #136 
  - Only in America  depakid   Jan-20-07 07:07 PM   #138 
  - The Denialists use anti-science Postmodernist rhetoric to fool people.  Odin2005   Jan-20-07 07:12 PM   #139 
  - yeah, that was a great post btw  WindRavenX   Jan-20-07 08:17 PM   #140 
  - If you're not a scientist but a lobbyist,  tabasco   Jan-21-07 07:57 AM   #151 
  - This thread has become a joke.  WindRavenX   Jan-21-07 01:13 PM   #157 
  - You can say that again.  Coventina   Jan-21-07 01:20 PM   #158 
     - it's the same horseshit with evolution  WindRavenX   Jan-21-07 01:26 PM   #159 
  - "Climate Code" on now  vireo   Jan-21-07 04:42 PM   #164 
     - Wind talker code breaker  ohio2007   Jan-22-07 08:37 AM   #173 

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