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Reply #57: Sorry, no ban on touch screens. Read the paper! [View All]

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
57. Sorry, no ban on touch screens. Read the paper!
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 09:16 PM by Bill Bored
OK, I don't expect everyone on DU to be a techie nerd, but those of us who follow this stuff "for a living" know exactly what it means, and it's NOT a ban on DREs or touch screens and probably had nothing to do with the excellent letter by VotersUnite.

Here are some facts you may wish to consider:

From the definitions on the first page of the NIST report:

< >

"- DRE Direct Record Electronic, used in this paper to refer to current blackbox DREs that provide no transparency to its software, e.g., open source, etc."

Note: this is NOT the same as "DRE-VVPAT."

From page 6:

"There are several types of software-independent systems, however those that are readily
available today are paper-based. These are as follows:
1. Op scan using manually marked paper ballots
2. Op scan using an EBM, which can produce a richer user interface including support
for accessibility and alternative languages

From page 13:
"NIST and the TGDC must continue to work on usability and accessibility requirements for systems
such as op scan and DRE-VVPAT. There is good reason to believe that much more can be
done to make these systems more usable and convenient for voters and for election officials"

Note: Does this read like a ban on touch screens?

From, page 15:

"2. Focus attention towards improving the usability and accessibility of paperbased
SI voting systems: HFP and STS should continue to work together to
incorporate requirements to make op scan, EBM, and DRE-VVPAT more usable,
accessible, and convenient to audit. If this work requires more time than allocated
for VVSG 2007 development, some method for continuing this work should be


  • No ban on touch screens.
  • Possible ban on DREs without VVPATs.
  • Ban will NOT take effect until 2009 when the 2007 standards will go into effect.
  • No paperless independent verification systems in the 2007 standards, but this may still be an area for future development.

See what happens at the Dec. TGDC meeting where this will be discussed. Meanwhile, it's a modest improvement because it acknowledges the need for independent verification using paper. But it does NOT ban touch screens nor does it require paper ballots in lieu of VVPATs.

Where the report is disappointing is that it considers DREs with VVPATs to be software-independent because the VVPATs can be audited independently. What it does NOT seem to point out is that the software is still required to produce the VVPATs. This is one of the points that VotersUnite and others who oppose DREs have correctly tried to make.

Now try not to shoot the messenger.
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  - Can we have a big party  DoYouEverWonder   Nov-29-06 04:56 PM   #1 
  - na.. lets use them as skeet shoot targets  don954   Nov-29-06 06:18 PM   #29 
  - NIST not recommending decertification of DRES  WillYourVoteBCounted   Nov-29-06 09:33 PM   #63 
  - Let me be the first to recommend this post.  Fridays Child   Nov-29-06 04:58 PM   #2 
  - What a relief. This can only get better from here.  blm   Nov-29-06 04:58 PM   #3 
  - hallelujah  proud patriot   Nov-29-06 05:01 PM   #4 
  - I worked on election day 2006 in Columbus, OH  Botany   Nov-29-06 05:02 PM   #5 
  - Hey Botany:  mod mom   Nov-29-06 05:07 PM   #11 
     - Kilroy's people & lawyer are very aware of the 30 machines.  Botany   Nov-29-06 05:25 PM   #18 
        - Didn't you love how the Disgrace just placed it in the middle of the  mod mom   Nov-29-06 08:57 PM   #58 
        - Is this race settled?  Boxturtle   Nov-30-06 06:00 AM   #82 
           - Pryce's margin of victory is 1,000 votes (down from 3000)  Botany   Nov-30-06 07:19 AM   #85 
  - Please add:  partylessinOhio   Nov-29-06 05:05 PM   #6 
  - YES!!!! THANK YOU, ALL OF YOU WHO DID THIS FOR US!  coffeenap   Nov-29-06 05:06 PM   #7 
  - They are just a bunch of conspiracy crackpots!  eliphaslevi   Nov-29-06 05:07 PM   #8 
  - They're finally realizing what is obvious. Hooray!!! n/t  cui bono   Nov-29-06 05:07 PM   #9 
  - The NIST paper also noted that, "potentially, a single programmer could 'rig' a major election."  JudyM   Nov-29-06 05:07 PM   #10 
  - How do you know it's a "slight tinge of blue"?  Stevepol   Nov-29-06 06:54 PM   #37 
     - George Allen didn't call for a Recount because  femrap   Nov-29-06 08:18 PM   #49 
     - No way to recount Virginia, its 70% paperless  WillYourVoteBCounted   Nov-29-06 09:41 PM   #65 
     - I hope you're right though the pre and post polls were close, as well. n/t  JudyM   Nov-29-06 09:39 PM   #64 
  - About NIST's role in the election system in the U.S.  emlev   Nov-29-06 05:09 PM   #12 
  - ...Breaks into "Hallelujah Chorus" and "Ode to Joy"...  Hekate   Nov-29-06 05:10 PM   #13 
  - Wonderful!!! n/t  AzDar   Nov-29-06 05:14 PM   #14 
  - Kick and Recommend  BlueCollar   Nov-29-06 05:18 PM   #15 
  - Those guys at NIST need to take their tinfoil hats off!!!  Pawel K   Nov-29-06 05:18 PM   #16 
  - Those guys at NIST need to stay off small planes  DBoon   Nov-29-06 09:15 PM   #59 
     - NIST recommending paperless verification systems  WillYourVoteBCounted   Nov-29-06 09:43 PM   #66 
  - yesyesyesyesyesyes! n/t  Digit   Nov-29-06 05:21 PM   #17 
  - wwwoooohhhooooooo! but  mopinko   Nov-29-06 05:35 PM   #19 
  - You mean Republican-owned voting machines with secret Republican codes...  KansDem   Nov-29-06 05:37 PM   #20 
  - Halla - FUCKIN' - lujah!  IndyOp   Nov-29-06 05:40 PM   #21 
  - Can someone explain this?  Old and In the Way   Nov-29-06 05:42 PM   #22 
  - I think this great piece will answer your questions.  emlev   Nov-29-06 05:50 PM   #23 
  - In Nov 2000 I voted in Hawaii we used a machine that showed the options you selected then it printed  sce56   Nov-30-06 12:06 AM   #74 
  - Read the full article...  BradBlog   Nov-29-06 05:52 PM   #24 
  - Yay Brad! Take a bow, sir! When are you going to run for  petgoat   Nov-29-06 05:57 PM   #26 
     - run for the hills? :-)  BradBlog   Nov-30-06 12:02 AM   #73 
  - Here is a link to the actual NIST white paper (draft version):  Make7   Nov-29-06 06:42 PM   #33 
  - You ask too many questions. See post #57.  Bill Bored   Nov-29-06 08:19 PM   #50 
  - County by county, polling place by polling place....  suston96   Nov-29-06 05:52 PM   #25 
  - Thank you!!!!  Deb   Nov-29-06 06:01 PM   #27 
  - PARTY!!!!!!!!!!!!  babsbunny   Nov-29-06 06:04 PM   #28 
  - Recommended #60  Benhurst   Nov-29-06 06:19 PM   #30 
  - Fabulous!  mom cat   Nov-29-06 06:29 PM   #31 
  - We should adopt Vote-by-mail, as in Oregon.  phiddle   Nov-29-06 06:40 PM   #32 
  - good luck, heres VBM in Colorado  WillYourVoteBCounted   Nov-30-06 02:26 AM   #77 
  - Damn Right!!  lpbk2713   Nov-29-06 06:44 PM   #34 
  - Unfortunately, I think the next headline we can expect to see is:  kestrel91316   Nov-29-06 06:45 PM   #35 
  - hammers are a good way to vote  sweetheart   Nov-29-06 06:47 PM   #36 
  - Now this makes my day. Wow...this is incredibly good news.  livvy   Nov-29-06 07:06 PM   #38 
  - THANKS BRAD!!!  BadGimp   Nov-29-06 07:20 PM   #39 
  - This is wonderful!  annabanana   Nov-29-06 07:23 PM   #40 
  - Oh hell yeah!  lonestarnot   Nov-29-06 07:29 PM   #41 
  - WOO-HOO!!!  nicknameless   Nov-29-06 07:39 PM   #42 
  - This is amazing news  SharonRB   Nov-29-06 07:46 PM   #43 
  - still my heart!  Hepburn   Nov-29-06 07:52 PM   #44 
  - Nice try but this won't affect an election until at least 2009. nt  Bill Bored   Nov-29-06 08:01 PM   #45 
  - K&R Hand Counted Paper Ballots NOW!  In Truth We Trust   Nov-29-06 08:09 PM   #46 
  - It's about time...  RestoreGore   Nov-29-06 08:09 PM   #47 
  - thank you brad!  freedomfries   Nov-29-06 08:11 PM   #48 
  - Thank you Brad and everyone else who worked so hard  Greybnk48   Nov-29-06 08:20 PM   #51 
  - Rig and election? Go figure. kick  buddysmellgood   Nov-29-06 08:30 PM   #52 
  - OF COURSE! Democrats have the upper hand so ...  Kablooie   Nov-29-06 08:40 PM   #53 
  - Woot! 100th rec! n/t  hootinholler   Nov-29-06 08:47 PM   #54 
  - Ha! It was you!  bleever   Nov-29-06 08:48 PM   #56 
  - I wanted to be the 100th rec., but somebody tied with me.  bleever   Nov-29-06 08:47 PM   #55 
  - Musta been us then...  hootinholler   Nov-29-06 09:32 PM   #62 
     - I've been getting better,  bleever   Nov-29-06 11:50 PM   #71 
  - Sorry, no ban on touch screens. Read the paper!  Bill Bored   Nov-29-06 08:49 PM   #57 
  - Thanks Bill!  Old and In the Way   Nov-29-06 11:25 PM   #67 
  - Old and In the Way...Here's what you need to know...  BradBlog   Nov-29-06 11:56 PM   #72 
  - Thanks...I checked your links out.  Old and In the Way   Nov-30-06 01:20 AM   #76 
  - VVPATs in their present form definitely suck  slackmaster   Nov-30-06 02:06 PM   #94 
  - it would allow completely paperless systems  WillYourVoteBCounted   Nov-30-06 02:30 AM   #78 
  - I was just pointing out that the software-independence requirement  Bill Bored   Nov-30-06 03:18 AM   #79 
     - Next issue...printer runs out of ink  Old and In the Way   Nov-30-06 01:22 PM   #90 
  - Oh, Bill...Why so doubtful? ;-)  BradBlog   Nov-29-06 11:46 PM   #70 
  - It's a positive development, but all the old stuff will be grandfathered absent legislation.  Bill Bored   Nov-30-06 03:23 AM   #80 
  - Thanks Bill, I'm glad I read the actual paper before responding  slackmaster   Nov-30-06 01:57 PM   #93 
  - Remind me again why we are all a bunch of tinfoil hat loons?  Warren Stupidity   Nov-29-06 09:16 PM   #60 
  - Conspiracy theories, don't ya know..... People need some sense  petgoat   Nov-29-06 11:30 PM   #68 
  - THERE IS A GOD!!!  AtLiberty   Nov-29-06 09:26 PM   #61 
  - Glad to hear it.  Vidar   Nov-29-06 11:31 PM   #69 
  - What Great News, Brad!  rumpel   Nov-30-06 12:15 AM   #75 
  - Graphic displays of Diebold's reaction to the story:  krispos42   Nov-30-06 05:46 AM   #81 
  - yeeee-haaaaaa!!!  NotGivingUp   Nov-30-06 06:38 AM   #83 
  - Great, paper ballots and supervised counting at each precinct  whistle   Nov-30-06 06:52 AM   #84 
  - YAHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!  NoSheep   Nov-30-06 08:39 AM   #86 
  - HOORAY & HALLELUJAH!!!  KAT119   Nov-30-06 11:00 AM   #87 
  - Honestly, did it really take a federal agency to figure this out?  nolabels   Nov-30-06 12:26 PM   #88 
  - Why not just have a law banning secrete proprietary software for federal elections?  oc2002   Nov-30-06 12:48 PM   #89 
  - It serves those crooked companies just right. They lost a lot of  MasonJar   Nov-30-06 01:35 PM   #91 
  - You don't have to be an MIT grad to figure out that evoting  Zorra   Nov-30-06 01:38 PM   #92 
  - Best news of the year  sonias   Nov-30-06 04:46 PM   #95 

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