qwlauren35
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Wed Nov-15-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message |
| 43. Well... this is going to be interesting. |
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At the school where I taught last year, JROTC was an incredibly strong program that promoted discipline, self-reliance and teamwork. The kids wore their uniforms with pride, developed a sense of decent grooming, and overall, had the respect of their classmates.
I think it is perfectly acceptable for a school district to make a decision about JROTC.
However, I have no doubt that once other school systems and parents around the country see this take place, they will fight to keep JROTC in other school systems.
As for discrimination... I've heard people say that they wish JROTC discriminated MORE. Our JROTC often took students with severe disabilities who would never make it into the US Army. I sense that there may be somewhat of a disconnect between JROTC and the US Army on a few issues, for the very fact that these are children.
It should be interesting if the next big thing in SF is to initiate a protest/boycott against the Marines Toys for Tots program. And it would be really interesting to see if SF banned the military from coming in to aid with a natural disaster because of their discriminatory policies.
We have incredibly strong laws in place against rape... but it still happens because we have cultural biases that are stronger than our laws. And from what I've heard, it's an unspoken reality in the military. Some guys are NEVER, EVER going to accept women in military service. In all likelihood, even if the military put in place a "No Tolerance" policy against gay-bashing, it will continue for the same reasons. Doesn't make it right, but anyone who thinks it will go away lives in a dreamworld.
So, JROTC will go away in SF, and some kids will definitely lose as a result of this policy. But I have no doubt that this will simply kick off another backlash to preserve institutions that the majority believes do more good than harm.
Perhaps someone will post data on high school drop-out rates in comparable schools with and without JROTC programs. I've seen the good it does. And I'm not sure there is proof that the program itself discriminates against gay students.
|
| -San Francisco school board votes to dump JROTC program |
Newsjock |
Nov-15-06 01:16 AM |
#0 |
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You gotta love SF! So "ballsy"! n/t |
keopeli |
Nov-15-06 01:23 AM |
#1 |
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I disagree - I say let the students choose |
RamboLiberal |
Nov-15-06 01:26 AM |
#2 |
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The issue is discrimination |
TechBear_Seattle |
Nov-15-06 08:43 AM |
#10 |
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I don't see how taking away students' choices enhances "fairness" |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 10:34 AM |
# |
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What kind of a choice do gay students have in this situation? |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-15-06 10:52 AM |
#22 |
  -
I haven't seen any indication that gay students aren't welcome in JROTC |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 10:56 AM |
#26 |
   -
I think the "no free lunch" rule applies here. |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-15-06 11:05 AM |
#36 |
  -
Excellent poits |
hogwyld |
Nov-15-06 02:28 PM |
#78 |
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The core of my political philosophy is personal choice |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 03:07 PM |
#82 |
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While I generally agree with you on choice |
hogwyld |
Nov-15-06 03:23 PM |
#86 |
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I'm from a military family, my brother is an officer in the Navy |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 03:49 PM |
#90 |
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A gay or lesbian student can join JROTC and even become an officer |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 01:54 PM |
#68 |
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Now imagine saying "A Jewish kid can join the exclusive club at the |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 02:54 PM |
#81 |
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If gays and lesbians were actually banned from the military |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 03:08 PM |
#83 |
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But gays and lesbians ARE banned if you know they're gay or |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 03:09 PM |
#84 |
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Like a country club that says "We don't care about your religion, BUT..." |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 03:16 PM |
#85 |
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Let The Military Fund It, Run It, and Do It Off Campus |
ProfessorGAC |
Nov-15-06 01:51 PM |
#66 |
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Good idea, Professor |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 01:54 PM |
#70 |
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Point is, only the STRAIGHT students get a choice. |
kestrel91316 |
Nov-15-06 02:14 PM |
#74 |
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Agreed. |
Ka hrnt |
Nov-16-06 08:32 PM |
#104 |
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That's a reach |
michreject |
Nov-15-06 06:20 PM |
#94 |
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Same difference. |
PassingFair |
Nov-16-06 08:37 PM |
#105 |
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Not even close |
michreject |
Nov-17-06 09:23 AM |
#110 |
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Very dumb. (nt) |
w4rma |
Nov-15-06 01:29 AM |
#3 |
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I agree |
torrentprime |
Nov-15-06 01:37 PM |
#62 |
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One of my friends was in JROTC in high school and went on to military intel... |
DRoseDARs |
Nov-15-06 01:42 AM |
#4 |
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What a shame. My son was in ROTC |
greccogirl |
Nov-15-06 01:57 AM |
#5 |
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Actions like this will IMPROVE the JrROTC and ROTC programs in the future. |
keopeli |
Nov-15-06 02:57 AM |
#6 |
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If They Can't Accept Gays While In San Fransisco, They Can Fuck Off (eom) |
wellst0nev0ter |
Nov-15-06 04:43 AM |
#7 |
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It's supposedly the military's position on gays, not JROTC's in particular |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 10:27 AM |
#15 |
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It's a DIRTY BABY. |
PassingFair |
Nov-16-06 08:40 PM |
#106 |
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Truman, a Democrat, desegregated the military and that was a courageous act. IMO the military has |
jody |
Nov-15-06 07:38 AM |
#8 |
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Wow.... people sure have a screwed up idea of JROTC |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 07:47 AM |
#9 |
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The issue is discrimination, not war |
TechBear_Seattle |
Nov-15-06 08:46 AM |
#11 |
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From the article |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 10:26 AM |
#14 |
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You say "no reason" to get rid of program? |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 10:43 AM |
#19 |
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Please don't put words in my mouth |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 10:56 AM |
#27 |
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They can be in it, but they can't get the same benefit from it. |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 11:02 AM |
#32 |
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By extension do you also feel that we should cancel the football program |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 11:16 AM |
#39 |
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If they said "gay football player cannot get scholarships," yes! |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 11:19 AM |
#40 |
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actually |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 11:25 AM |
# |
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I advise you be mad at the military, not the SF school board. |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 11:36 AM |
#44 |
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you really believe that denying these 1600 kids a JROTC program |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 12:42 PM |
#50 |
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Would you make the same argument for a group that excluded Jews? |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 12:48 PM |
#54 |
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your beef is w/ the military.... not w/ these kids |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 01:40 PM |
#64 |
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I sincerely believe that no one here would argue that a group |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 02:09 PM |
#71 |
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Bernie Ward was discussing this last night. |
feminazi |
Nov-15-06 01:13 PM |
#60 |
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Also from the article |
TechBear_Seattle |
Nov-15-06 11:00 AM |
#30 |
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fine |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 11:12 AM |
#38 |
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Then the rest of the school clubs need to get off their behinds. |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-15-06 11:02 AM |
#31 |
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Yeah! Our here, we reject the idea that discipline and team skills |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-15-06 10:53 AM |
#23 |
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I don't think I said that either |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 10:58 AM |
#28 |
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As a JROTC instructor |
tinymontgomery |
Nov-15-06 10:10 AM |
#12 |
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our drill team is better than your drill team! |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 10:34 AM |
#17 |
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Your web page is too!! |
tinymontgomery |
Nov-15-06 10:42 AM |
#18 |
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But you can't offer the same benefits to gay students. |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 10:48 AM |
#21 |
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I thought the policy was still "don't ask/don't tell" |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 10:59 AM |
# |
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Please. "Don't ask" is a joke. People are hounded out all the time. |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 11:04 AM |
#34 |
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The policy is flawed and needs to be changed |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 11:06 AM |
#37 |
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I understand, but disagree. |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 11:21 AM |
#41 |
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The military is by nature ultra-conservative |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 12:30 PM |
#48 |
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I do advocate progressives entering the officers corps. |
David__77 |
Nov-15-06 12:45 PM |
#52 |
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Clarification: it prevents any gay person not willing to keep his life |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 12:45 PM |
#51 |
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Further clarification: keep his life a total, complete and absolute secret |
TechBear_Seattle |
Nov-15-06 01:05 PM |
#56 |
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There you go |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 01:51 PM |
#67 |
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Yes, there I go: I think programs should have to be fair to the students |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 02:11 PM |
#72 |
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JROTC does not discriminate |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 02:20 PM |
#76 |
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I'm not committed one way or the other about the decision, but |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 02:33 PM |
#80 |
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Ask Gretha Cammermeyer. |
TechBear_Seattle |
Nov-15-06 01:02 PM |
#55 |
  -
You are talking about life in the military, not in JROTC |
slackmaster |
Nov-16-06 07:29 PM |
#103 |
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The question was about DADT |
TechBear_Seattle |
Nov-17-06 12:12 PM |
#111 |
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So get the vote out and change it |
tinymontgomery |
Nov-15-06 11:05 AM |
#35 |
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Would you be as supportive of a program that excluded Jewish kids? |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 01:16 PM |
#61 |
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Excuse me |
torrentprime |
Nov-15-06 01:39 PM |
#63 |
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Suppose the US military had a "no Jew" rule.... |
TechBear_Seattle |
Nov-15-06 03:30 PM |
#88 |
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That is a very good analogy. |
KitSileya |
Nov-16-06 01:59 AM |
#98 |
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So |
torrentprime |
Nov-16-06 09:17 PM |
#109 |
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I don't know too much about the JROTC, |
KitSileya |
Nov-17-06 03:10 PM |
#112 |
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The problem |
torrentprime |
Nov-17-06 03:53 PM |
#113 |
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Easy question |
torrentprime |
Nov-16-06 09:11 PM |
#108 |
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As a former JROTC student |
Election |
Nov-16-06 12:34 PM |
#102 |
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Re: "We need to teach a curriculum of peace.'' |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 10:25 AM |
#13 |
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What crap. Are you advocating conscription for low income students? |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-15-06 10:59 AM |
#29 |
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Your logical extension does not wash |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 11:03 AM |
#33 |
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Bravo S.F! |
hogwyld |
Nov-15-06 10:34 AM |
#16 |
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The JROTC, run ethically, can be very beneficial to students. |
Tatiana |
Nov-15-06 10:43 AM |
#20 |
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The question is, why is it that these opportunities to widen |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-15-06 10:56 AM |
#25 |
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they're not, those opportunities are available in other programs... |
MissMillie |
Nov-15-06 11:21 AM |
#42 |
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So, whose failure of imagination is it that someone can't come up |
sfexpat2000 |
Nov-15-06 09:11 PM |
#96 |
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Good for them! |
Tight_rope |
Nov-15-06 10:54 AM |
#24 |
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Well... this is going to be interesting. |
qwlauren35 |
Nov-15-06 11:25 AM |
#43 |
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I find I must agree. |
Big_Mike |
Nov-15-06 11:49 AM |
#45 |
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That sir, is a flawed argument |
hogwyld |
Nov-15-06 12:18 PM |
#47 |
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No, I was arguing an absurdity |
Big_Mike |
Nov-16-06 08:21 AM |
#99 |
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JROTC (junior reserve officer training program) is a military program, not a local one. |
94114_San_Francisco |
Nov-15-06 12:16 PM |
#46 |
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Next time there is a major earthquake in California... |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 12:32 PM |
#49 |
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Straw man. |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 12:46 PM |
#53 |
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No, it's a social contract |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 01:49 PM |
#65 |
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To the contrary - the military serves the citizens, not the reverse. |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 02:12 PM |
#73 |
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You're not reading my post correctly |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 02:19 PM |
#75 |
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But military service is already available. |
mondo joe |
Nov-15-06 02:30 PM |
#79 |
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When I think of all the competent GLBT people who won't be able to help... |
94114_San_Francisco |
Nov-15-06 01:07 PM |
#57 |
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If the military refuses to help us |
hogwyld |
Nov-15-06 01:08 PM |
#58 |
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Good for Frisco. |
Vidar |
Nov-15-06 01:10 PM |
#59 |
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No. Not "good for us" |
Der Blaue Engel |
Nov-15-06 01:54 PM |
#69 |
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You can't have it both ways |
hogwyld |
Nov-15-06 02:25 PM |
#77 |
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Simply |
torrentprime |
Nov-15-06 03:27 PM |
#87 |
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Sure I can |
Der Blaue Engel |
Nov-15-06 04:15 PM |
#92 |
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San Francisco values-- Peace brother! |
Sequoia |
Nov-15-06 03:30 PM |
#89 |
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I tend to support this decision |
Neecy |
Nov-15-06 04:13 PM |
#91 |
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This is so dumb |
stevekatz |
Nov-15-06 04:37 PM |
#93 |
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Article 125 of UCMJ defines sodomy |
slackmaster |
Nov-15-06 06:52 PM |
#95 |
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your right |
stevekatz |
Nov-15-06 09:11 PM |
#97 |
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JROTC is a good program...This is not good. n/t |
Finder |
Nov-16-06 10:25 AM |
#100 |
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I'm gay, and I disagree with SF schools on this |
transeo |
Nov-16-06 11:21 AM |
#101 |
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Ditto! |
torrentprime |
Nov-16-06 09:01 PM |
#107 |