Reply #81: The Romans didnt start collapsing until 500 AD

[K-W]

and were still a major military power in the world and were setting up thier new capital in the middle east. Byzantium was the Roman Empire. It was the continuation of the same extended occupation.

It doesnt matter if Islam existed. Islam didnt sprout from thin air, it was a product of the history that preceded it.

I never said that every square inch of the middle east was occupied at all times, thats silly.

If they didn't develop commercially as fast as Europe did from let's say 1700AD ff., that isn't the fault of non Moslems, because the non-Moslems (Europeans) weren't there controlling anything for most of the last 2000 years. The Europeans were too busy warring with each other.

First, there were still European forces in the area, there were still townships controlled by British and French forces.

But this is the more important point, even if what you are saying is correct it is moot, because all of the trade routes, all of the surrounding areas, all of the places they could hope to trade with were controlled by either a European or an Asian force both of which were hostile to them and wanted to prevent thier development or were being invaded by a European or Asian force.

The ocean was controlled by European forces. Europe had major economic control of the region. You are right, the crusades had failed to hold the middle east. But by the time that happened European nations were able to cut the region off, and prevent trade which is neccessary for development.

As for your last paragraph you are spinning history.

You are focusing on the one period where they were allowed some level of independent development, and thus it is when thier religion developed a good deal(of course). But to argue that because during this one period they werent neccessarily occupied (although they certainly were under attack and economically isolated) it means the religion wasnt in a large part a product of thier history of being kicked around is silly. That is the cultural heritage that led to the society where Islam developed. And then it isnt too long until that window of independence is shut for good. And the religion develops alongside continued occupation and intereference through the present day.

Edit: I am off to sleep so I may not be able to pick this conversation up again. But its nice to discuss these issues.