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Reply #166: You have it backwards. [View All]

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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-07-05 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #152
166. You have it backwards.
Edited on Thu Jul-07-05 11:37 AM by K-W
The government wants people to believe that what we are facing is a powerful organized group. That is the entire basis of the war on terrorism, that every person in the world who we consider hostile to us is part of some giant America hating organization and thus we have to give the government power to do whatever it wants anywhere in the world to stop them.

When a terrorist group invokes the name of Al Queda, they are not claiming to be part of some hidden organization, they are just utilizing a symbol. They magnify the terror of their acts by associating them with other attacks.

We are allowing both the government and the terrorists to use us if we get sucked into the myth of a unified jihadist army.
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  -London Blast Thread #3 - 40 reported dead in London blasts OKNancy  Jul-07-05 08:41 AM   #0 
  - Ambulance service: At least 45 dead in London terror attacks (Sky News)  allemand   Jul-07-05 08:42 AM   #1 
  - No politics ..... no rants ..... just sad  Botany   Jul-07-05 08:44 AM   #2 
  - Not to mention the tourists that are in the city now  lebkuchen   Jul-07-05 08:45 AM   #4 
     - Unfortunately, that's  zidzi   Jul-07-05 09:22 AM   #58 
     - Sad for my Brit Friends - blair & Chimp make me utterly sick!  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 11:54 AM   #183 
     - like messing with a hornets nest... I grieve ever death, those in  JRob   Jul-07-05 09:58 AM   #101 
        - Amen JRob... "Those" responsible have no respect for human life...  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 11:56 AM   #185 
           - not attempting to minimize the tragidy... why is any one shocked?  JRob   Jul-07-05 12:34 PM   #210 
              - A totally agree, JRob. Totally agree  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 12:53 PM   #217 
                 - we seem to agree a lot...  JRob   Jul-07-05 01:00 PM   #219 
  - London's (anti-war) mayor speaks:"not attack on the mighty or powerful"  Monkie   Jul-07-05 08:45 AM   #3 
  - Well said.  Squatch   Jul-07-05 08:52 AM   #8 
  - That's good to hear.  Chrisduhfur   Jul-07-05 09:04 AM   #18 
  - How can anyone justify suicide bombings?  youspeakmylanguage   Jul-07-05 09:04 AM   #19 
  - And anyone who votes for the violent policies of those Presidents and PMs  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:18 AM   #50 
  - So a bus bombing is justified since at least some of the passengers...  youspeakmylanguage   Jul-07-05 09:24 AM   #61 
  - Of course it's not "Justified". Just putting things in context.  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:39 AM   #85 
  - even on this morning, there is a war in iraq  noiretblu   Jul-07-05 09:50 AM   #97 
     - indeed, our violence in Iraq is not aimed at the "mighty"...  arcane1   Jul-07-05 12:16 PM   # 
  - Hmmm let me see if I understand  Centered   Jul-07-05 10:08 AM   #117 
  - you forgot one-  LiberallyInclined   Jul-07-05 10:55 AM   #143 
  - I don't agree  Centered   Jul-07-05 11:48 AM   #176 
  - Very True! What do you do with evil people in the world?  TwentyFive   Jul-07-05 12:21 PM   #201 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 10:54 AM   #142 
  - listening to Speakers Forum last night as i fell asleep the speaker  demigoddess   Jul-07-05 10:56 AM   #144 
  - Thank you spoken and written better than I could have.  navvet   Jul-07-05 11:40 AM   #173 
  - Beautifully said. Unapologetic, but the anti-violence message is loud  blondeatlast   Jul-07-05 09:06 AM   #26 
  - Livingstone's comments were quite powerful  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-07-05 09:08 AM   #32 
  - Kudos to Mayor Livingstone for telling the truth  slackmaster   Jul-07-05 09:17 AM   #48 
  - Background on Ken Livingstone, for those who don't know of him  CoolOnion   Jul-07-05 09:34 AM   #77 
  - They pulled that clip and aired it NPR this morning  Tyrone Slothrop   Jul-07-05 10:04 AM   #108 
  - it's vague at best... Why can't politicians (with the ear of the press)  JRob   Jul-07-05 10:07 AM   #115 
  - I agree, what's so great about it? nt  mirandapriestly   Jul-07-05 11:03 AM   #149 
  - I hope so monkie. He really got to the crux of the matter, so much more  mom cat   Jul-07-05 12:17 PM   #196 
  - Livingstone gave the best statement of the day  Lydia Leftcoast   Jul-07-05 12:39 PM   #211 
  - Well there's our first clue  LibertyorDeath   Jul-07-05 12:42 PM   #212 
  - Just woke up to this news. I want to express that  Coventina   Jul-07-05 08:46 AM   #5 
  - Hmmm  Chrisduhfur   Jul-07-05 09:05 AM   #23 
     - Oh, sure, there's plenty of blame for Blair as well as Bush  Coventina   Jul-07-05 09:20 AM   #52 
     - At this point, who is to say that they're not one and the same?  stickdog   Jul-07-05 11:01 AM   #146 
     - Some history  CoolOnion   Jul-07-05 09:48 AM   #95 
        - Please don't confuse the issue  Nihil   Jul-07-05 10:15 AM   #122 
           - Just thinking of future LTTE's & Ken Livingston's statement  CoolOnion   Jul-07-05 11:36 AM   #171 
  - Live video, London blasts: t BBC Video update.. (Also Audio)  mom cat   Jul-07-05 08:47 AM   #6 
  - Kick  Moderator   Jul-07-05 08:51 AM   #7 
  - I just got the news out here on the West Coast (USA)...  icymist   Jul-07-05 08:53 AM   #9 
  - Mercy on the World  ClayZ   Jul-07-05 08:58 AM   #12 
  - Amen, amen, amen. nt  blondeatlast   Jul-07-05 09:22 AM   # 
  - Yes. Amen... Can't say that one enough.  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 11:59 AM   #189 
  - God, ClayZ - You Are Right! It's High Time to End ALL Violence  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 12:23 PM   #204 
  - Amen  wicket   Jul-07-05 09:01 AM   #16 
  - Our main office is in London  bikebloke   Jul-07-05 08:55 AM   #10 
  - Fingers Crossed for you  Dead_Parrot   Jul-07-05 09:02 AM   #17 
  - Al-Queda Statement:  Dead_Parrot   Jul-07-05 09:06 AM   # 
     - Londoners seem pretty clam and collected too me.  Chrisduhfur   Jul-07-05 09:11 AM   #39 
        - Sad as it is, London has plenty of experience with terrorist bombings. n/t  jayctravis   Jul-07-05 09:27 AM   #69 
        - They've dealt with terrorism for 30 years, on and off,...  youspeakmylanguage   Jul-07-05 09:29 AM   #72 
        - Londoners were amazingly calm during WWII  CoolOnion   Jul-07-05 11:20 AM   #163 
        - Good. Good. Good. Super-Glad to hear that!!!!  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 12:00 PM   #190 
  - damn I hope everyone is ok.  Chrisduhfur   Jul-07-05 09:06 AM   # 
  - Everyone accounted for and fine.  bikebloke   Jul-07-05 10:58 AM   #145 
  - My thoughts and prayers are with the people of London  qanda   Jul-07-05 08:58 AM   #11 
  - My thoughts and prayers are with the people of London. eom  Cerridwen   Jul-07-05 08:58 AM   #13 
  - how sad  genevat   Jul-07-05 09:00 AM   #14 
  - Dead argument: fight them there so we don't fight them here.  halobeam   Jul-07-05 09:07 AM   #29 
  - he will keep saying it  leftchick   Jul-07-05 10:23 AM   #131 
  - Yes. This is the post I looked for to make sure someone  mbperrin   Jul-07-05 10:29 AM   #135 
  - Bush says the war on terror must go on -  Matilda   Jul-07-05 09:08 AM   #34 
  - The war of terror must go on, Hail Bushler  nolabels   Jul-07-05 09:40 AM   #87 
  - Exactly  alarimer   Jul-07-05 10:01 AM   #104 
  - I thought the timing was pretty convenient to say the least  demigoddess   Jul-07-05 11:02 AM   #147 
  - Yes, what a coinky-dink that the attacks help bush  Straight Shooter   Jul-07-05 11:13 AM   #154 
  - Glad I'm not the only one with this thought.  dbonds   Jul-07-05 11:21 AM   #164 
  - Glad to see someone else is like-minded.  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 12:04 PM   #192 
  - My yes, it was convenient now wasn't it?  TheGoldenRule   Jul-07-05 12:57 PM   #218 
  - I believe so.........and  sojourner   Jul-07-05 01:22 PM   #222 
  - Another kick for my friends  AFSCME girl   Jul-07-05 09:01 AM   #15 
  - Heartfelt condolences  Tripmann   Jul-07-05 09:05 AM   #22 
  - My neighbor says her husband is one of the injured and is being  emad   Jul-07-05 09:05 AM   #20 
  - One of the blasts was near the British Museum  lebkuchen   Jul-07-05 09:08 AM   #31 
  - (though it doesn't have to be said) Give her our best  underpants   Jul-07-05 09:08 AM   #33 
  - Thanks underpants. The irony that they are the only ones in my  emad   Jul-07-05 09:34 AM   #75 
  - Oh emad, so sorry to hear this. Hope he is OK.  fudge stripe cookays   Jul-07-05 10:14 AM   #121 
  - Thankx. Guess he's one of the lucky ones with flesh wounds  emad   Jul-07-05 10:20 AM   #128 
  - Please Stay Safe, our London Friends. Dumbo is right.  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 12:25 PM   #207 
  - i just woke up saw this on the news...  jg82567   Jul-07-05 09:05 AM   #21 
  - So, Georgie, any word on Osama bin Laden? Just asking. Good thing we  yellowcanine   Jul-07-05 09:05 AM   #24 
  - I find that distasteful and rather arrogant.  Chrisduhfur   Jul-07-05 09:09 AM   #35 
  - I find this distasteful, and arrogant to call this "collateral damage"....  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:15 AM   #44 
  - Very true  Chrisduhfur   Jul-07-05 09:18 AM   #49 
  - They are intimately related. Iraqi civilians, British, U.S. civilains...  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:21 AM   #55 
  - This is the exact time to point this out. It's when people may, just may  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:45 AM   #92 
  - The two are inextricably intertwined  KevinJ   Jul-07-05 09:45 AM   #93 
  - When will we learn? Never.  malachi   Jul-07-05 09:21 AM   #53 
  - ...  Dr Fate   Jul-07-05 11:03 AM   #148 
  - the ragging on Bush should never cease...  jg82567   Jul-07-05 09:24 AM   #62 
  - If they don't demand to bring troops home NOW, they are a stupid country  confludemocrat   Jul-07-05 09:56 AM   #100 
     - as a londoner, let me thank you for your kindness on this difficult mornin  Reverend Smoothfield   Jul-07-05 10:25 AM   #132 
     - the problem is Blair vs. his own country's population...  jg82567   Jul-07-05 10:36 AM   #137 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 10:43 AM   #139 
        - That's true, but they reelected him, thus they didn't care enough  confludemocrat   Jul-07-05 10:53 AM   #141 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 12:16 PM   #195 
  - Oh Please -- Save It  GiovanniC   Jul-07-05 09:26 AM   #68 
  - And imagine how much further we could have gotten in the war on terror...  KevinJ   Jul-07-05 09:59 AM   #103 
  - greed and omnipotence... it's the oldest justification and the bravado of  JRob   Jul-07-05 10:28 AM   #134 
  - Thank you KevinJ. You are a Very Wise Soul - Peace is the Answer  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 12:19 PM   #199 
  - Here, here!!!!!  JRob   Jul-07-05 10:19 AM   #126 
  - The only fingers to point in this are to the terroists.  losdiablosgato   Jul-07-05 09:27 AM   #70 
  - The Terrorists Did This -- And Were Able to BECAUSE of Bush  GiovanniC   Jul-07-05 09:39 AM   #84 
  - I find this sort of comment bizarre!  tblue37   Jul-07-05 11:37 AM   #172 
     - of course it's related  Reverend Smoothfield   Jul-07-05 12:24 PM   #206 
  - Being 'tasteful' is not a priority  UKCynic   Jul-07-05 09:34 AM   #76 
  - distasteful perhaps  Joj Bush   Jul-07-05 09:38 AM   #82 
  - Give me a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm sure everyone is sympathetic to the  JRob   Jul-07-05 10:17 AM   #123 
  - What about  Oversea Visitor   Jul-07-05 10:18 AM   #124 
  - If this had happened in Baghdad, it would hardly be news at all.  shayes51   Jul-07-05 10:21 AM   #130 
  - The ragging on Bush should be stepped up. Iraq, now here's the blowback  confludemocrat   Jul-07-05 10:38 AM   #138 
  - I was looking for information on donating blood  CoolOnion   Jul-07-05 11:52 AM   #180 
  - No, the "ragging on Bush" should NOT be held back.  truth2power   Jul-07-05 12:18 PM   #198 
  - Let's get REAL here.  TheGoldenRule   Jul-07-05 01:06 PM   #221 
  - Really? As arrogant as attacking a country based on a lie and then  yellowcanine   Jul-07-05 01:22 PM   #223 
  - There, now,  DUBYASCREWEDUS   Jul-07-05 09:20 AM   #51 
     - I'm with you.... Fuck Al Qaieda.... mad dogs..  trekbiker   Jul-07-05 09:40 AM   #86 
  - Oh crap  slackmaster   Jul-07-05 09:06 AM   #25 
  - Sorry London. I wish you the best.  illini   Jul-07-05 09:06 AM   #27 
  - BBC reporting:  emad   Jul-07-05 09:07 AM   #28 
  - B*sh already capitalizing on these attacks to support his war(s)...  icymist   Jul-07-05 09:21 AM   #57 
     - When Poodle was doing the "shocked & grieving" speech Dumbass  emad   Jul-07-05 09:45 AM   #91 
  - Oh my god, I am so sad.  myrna minx   Jul-07-05 09:07 AM   #30 
  - violence begets violence...when will we learn?  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:12 AM   #41 
  - Too early to tell but...  passy   Jul-07-05 09:10 AM   #36 
  - Latest News - 3pm London time  UKCynic   Jul-07-05 09:10 AM   #37 
  - Oh fuck - there is no excuse for this.  TankLV   Jul-07-05 09:11 AM   #38 
  - Nor for the terrorist attackes we Americans are orchestrating...  info being   Jul-07-05 09:41 AM   #88 
  - If you were Tony,  winter999   Jul-07-05 09:12 AM   #40 
  - slink out of the G-8  lebkuchen   Jul-07-05 09:14 AM   #43 
  - Who do we bomb now, in retaliation, Chimpy?  lebkuchen   Jul-07-05 09:12 AM   #42 
  - Yes, how many brown babies do we kill in revenge Chimpy......?  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:16 AM   #46 
  - Bombings like this have been happening in Iraq nearly  lizzy   Jul-07-05 09:36 AM   #79 
     - exactly and millions slaughtered in Rwanda  savemefromdumbya   Jul-07-05 11:52 AM   #181 
  - Yes, we certainly will hunt them down...  info being   Jul-07-05 09:41 AM   #90 
     - Yes, Iran is very close to Iraq  lebkuchen   Jul-07-05 09:46 AM   #94 
  - Just woke up. OMG.  Mari333   Jul-07-05 09:15 AM   #45 
  - No, actually those who set off the bombs are responsible nm  underthedome   Jul-07-05 09:17 AM   #47 
  - More than one factor can be responsible for an event.  K-W   Jul-07-05 09:23 AM   #60 
  - Christ, ok then maybe they blame Clinton nm  underthedome   Jul-07-05 09:25 AM   #63 
  - there are two reasons why the London bombings aren't a surprise...  NorthernSpy   Jul-07-05 10:07 AM   #112 
  - Exactly, trying to put exact cause in an effort to eliminate it is........  nolabels   Jul-07-05 10:19 AM   #125 
  - As is the soldier who dropped the bomb on the Iraqi wedding party?  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:26 AM   #66 
  - Bush and Blair and the neocons set off the first bombs  Mari333   Jul-07-05 09:37 AM   #81 
  - But it is beacuse of our WAR CRIMES  alarimer   Jul-07-05 10:03 AM   #107 
  - the Al Qaeda types don't care about war crimes...  NorthernSpy   Jul-07-05 10:13 AM   #119 
  - true... but there is this thing called the BIG PICTURE..  trekbiker   Jul-07-05 10:07 AM   #113 
  - There were Islamic terrorists  winter999   Jul-07-05 09:49 AM   #96 
     - Yes,  CJCRANE   Jul-07-05 12:17 PM   #197 
     - There were Islamic terrorists before Bush and Clinton  alcibiades_mystery   Jul-07-05 01:23 PM   #224 
  - Is this linked to the announcement that Britain would withdraw troops from  spooked911   Jul-07-05 09:21 AM   #54 
  - Interesting connection. n/t  daleo   Jul-07-05 11:50 AM   #177 
  - Damn Damn Damn  realcountrymusic   Jul-07-05 09:21 AM   #56 
  - Interesting name they call themselves:  HypnoToad   Jul-07-05 09:22 AM   #59 
  - It certainly isnt al queda.  K-W   Jul-07-05 09:26 AM   #64 
  - Live reporting on CNN now by London Metro Police: No mention of Al Queda  TankLV   Jul-07-05 09:34 AM   #78 
  - If it walks like a duck...  confludemocrat   Jul-07-05 11:05 AM   #152 
     - You have it backwards.  K-W   Jul-07-05 11:24 AM   #166 
        - Distinction w/o a diff. Terrorists clearly unified in intent and action.  confludemocrat   Jul-07-05 12:47 PM   #214 
  - Maybe It Sounds Cooler in Another Language  GiovanniC   Jul-07-05 10:07 AM   #114 
  - On all levels, the world is descending into madness and savagery  deutsey   Jul-07-05 09:26 AM   #65 
  - Descending? We've been down here for a Looooonnnnnngggg time  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:27 AM   #71 
     - We had made some progress; but the center never holds, as the poet said  deutsey   Jul-07-05 09:30 AM   #73 
  - Police statement on fatalities  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-07-05 09:26 AM   #67 
  - Unknown, my ass  BiggNife   Jul-07-05 09:36 AM   #80 
     - OK, it's 100. What's the difference? n/t  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 09:41 AM   #89 
     - Public service announcement expert (not)  JoFerret   Jul-07-05 09:55 AM   #99 
     - Yeah, I suppose it's reasonable  BiggNife   Jul-07-05 11:14 AM   #155 
     - BS  BooScout   Jul-07-05 11:45 AM   #174 
  - The London Blasts: A Firsthand Account  norml   Jul-07-05 09:32 AM   #74 
  - "splattered blood on the cement walls of the building"  Roland99   Jul-07-05 09:59 AM   #102 
  - My condolences to all t he people impacted by this.  davsand   Jul-07-05 09:39 AM   #83 
  - This is wrong, I am so sorry. n/t  uppityperson   Jul-07-05 09:55 AM   #98 
  - Yeah, but are the Saud family safe and okay?  skooooo   Jul-07-05 10:02 AM   #105 
  - It's hard to read through the tears  Xipe Totec   Jul-07-05 10:02 AM   #106 
  - Yikes! You must be in agony every day then, with all the killing.........  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 10:06 AM   #110 
     - Yes, I am  Xipe Totec   Jul-07-05 10:20 AM   #127 
  - I am so cynical  BlueStatesForever   Jul-07-05 10:05 AM   #109 
  - Ridiculous  JoFerret   Jul-07-05 10:51 AM   #140 
  - This goes way beyond Karl Rove  AngryOldDem   Jul-07-05 11:19 AM   #161 
  - Same here. Because We No Longer Trust our Media, our Leaders  AuntiBush   Jul-07-05 12:30 PM   #209 
  - "barbaric" terrorist attack.  Massachusetts   Jul-07-05 10:06 AM   #111 
  - The fundies won't see it, but it's right there in the New Testament....  grumpy old fart   Jul-07-05 10:08 AM   #116 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 11:47 AM   #175 
  - BBC: Who has said what in response:  emad   Jul-07-05 10:12 AM   #118 
  - Bush says lately "be vigilant". code for: be suspicious of every nonwhite  confludemocrat   Jul-07-05 10:13 AM   #120 
  - We are all Londoners  Hamsta1   Jul-07-05 10:20 AM   #129 
  - Utterly depraved - attacking innocent people. SICK.  tabasco   Jul-07-05 10:27 AM   #133 
  - It's true,  ckramer   Jul-07-05 11:03 AM   #150 
  - Jeeze, what a thing to wake up to  LeftPeopleFinishFirst   Jul-07-05 10:32 AM   #136 
  - God Save the Union Jack!  Dr Fate   Jul-07-05 11:04 AM   #151 
  - My heart goes out to all people in British.  Rainscents   Jul-07-05 11:07 AM   #153 
  - uk red cross web site, fyi  steve2470   Jul-07-05 11:15 AM   #156 
  - I am so pissed off at the fuckers that do this  high density   Jul-07-05 11:15 AM   #157 
  - He's such a sleazeball  LeftPeopleFinishFirst   Jul-07-05 11:51 AM   #179 
  - eye for an eye  scarface2004   Jul-07-05 11:16 AM   #158 
  - Four London Blasts Kill 40, Injure 350  steve2470   Jul-07-05 11:17 AM   #159 
  - Statement claiming London attacks  steve2470   Jul-07-05 11:18 AM   #160 
  - London terror attacks of the past 25 years  steve2470   Jul-07-05 11:20 AM   #162 
  - London details from Sky News  steve2470   Jul-07-05 11:23 AM   #165 
  - How Long Will It Take For The Rightwingers  stepnw1f   Jul-07-05 11:32 AM   #167 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 11:33 AM   #168 
  - So... let me get this straight...  LeftPeopleFinishFirst   Jul-07-05 11:50 AM   #178 
  - You sound like a Freeper to me.  BooScout   Jul-07-05 11:53 AM   #182 
     - i alerted that post  LeftPeopleFinishFirst   Jul-07-05 11:55 AM   #184 
        - Good....  BooScout   Jul-07-05 11:56 AM   #186 
        - Double post n/t  BooScout   Jul-07-05 11:56 AM   #187 
  - Rove won't slip away though?  savemefromdumbya   Jul-07-05 11:34 AM   #169 
  - All the awkward silences and even more awkward condolences...  HuckleB   Jul-07-05 11:35 AM   #170 
  - SO WHAT  uglypuppy3   Jul-07-05 12:02 PM   #191 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 11:56 AM   #188 
  - GET OUT OF IRAQ, POODLE  chomskysright   Jul-07-05 12:08 PM   #193 
  - Police now say total dead is 37  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-07-05 12:11 PM   #194 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 12:28 PM   #208 
     - please do not use this board to advocate genocide  NorthernSpy   Jul-07-05 12:53 PM   #216 
  - MSNBC latest rport 1:19 PM EST - 700 injured -there are amputees  Pallas180   Jul-07-05 12:20 PM   #200 
  - just got off a 2 hour conversation with my friend  upoceg   Jul-07-05 12:21 PM   #202 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-07-05 12:21 PM   #203 
  - NBC reports a suspicious package on a bus parked outside...  VolcanoJen   Jul-07-05 12:24 PM   #205 
  - There have been several closures of stations  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-07-05 12:46 PM   #213 
  - Mods....can we have a 4th thread? n/t  BooScout   Jul-07-05 12:50 PM   #215 
  - The bastards: I hope Scotland Yard gets the people who did this and puts  poverlay   Jul-07-05 01:05 PM   #220 
  - Locking due to length - continue here please:  Moderator   Jul-07-05 01:24 PM   #225 
  - Locking  Skinner   Jul-07-05 01:26 PM   #226 
 

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