Judi Lynn
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Sun Jan-09-05 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #33 |
| 40. Bill Clinton didn't underwrite a coup against Chavez, did he? |
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There may be a few subtle differences! Could you offer a link bearing out your inplication President Clinton disliked Hugo Chavez? A quick dive into google didn't provide anything like that for me. Not wanting to spend too long rummaging around, I could only find a couple of quick references in passing: Chavez also met with U.S. President Bill Clinton, spoke at the Brookings Institution think tank and addressed leaders of the Organization of American States.
He said the impetus for reform in Venezuelan society is the result of "a powerful internal force, like a volcano, that has been maturing below the surface."
"It is an absolutely democratic and legitimate process, from beginning to end," he said.
'We are more confident about him'
Clinton's special envoy for Latin America, Kenneth MacKay, who attended the meeting between Chavez and Clinton, said that "we are more confident about him," although the jury was still out on the direction Venezuela was taking.
Analysts said the Clinton administration appears to be willing to give Chavez a chance. (snip/...) http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9909/22/chavez / ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Chavez sits atop a reserve of crude that rivals Iraq's. And it's not his presidency of Venezuela that drives the White House bananas, it was his presidency of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, OPEC. While in control of the OPEC secretariat, Chavez cut a deal with our maximum leader of the time, Bill Clinton, on the price of oil. It was a 'Goldilocks' plan. The price would not be too low, not too high; just right, kept between $20 and $30 a barrel.
But Dick Cheney does not like Clinton nor Chavez nor their band. To him, the oil industry's (and Saudi Arabia's) freedom to set oil prices is as sacred as freedom of speech is to the ACLU. I got this info, by the way, from three top oil industry lobbyists. (snip/...) http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0816-03.htm ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Arturo Valenzuela, the Latin America national security aide in the Clinton administration, accused the Bush administration of running roughshod over more than a decade of treaties and agreements for the collective defense of democracy. Since 1990, the United States has repeatedly invoked those agreements at the Organization of American States to help restore democratic rule in such countries as Haiti, Guatemala and Peru.
Mr. Valenzuela, who now heads the Latin American studies department at Georgetown University here, warned that the nations in the region might view the administration's tepid support of Venezuelan democracy as a green light to return to 1960's and 1970's, when power was transferred from coup to coup.
"I think it's a very negative development for the principle of constitutional government in Latin America," Mr. Valenzuela said. "I think it's going to come back and haunt all of us." (snip/...) http://www.pepeace.org/current_reprints/08/US_Seen_As_W...
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| -Venezuelan troops grab farms from "Lord Spam" |
Thankfully_in_Britain |
Jan-09-05 06:59 AM |
#0 |
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I'm sorry, but I'm sadden to hear this. |
The Backlash Cometh |
Jan-09-05 07:08 AM |
#1 |
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At SOME point, the assets MUST be redistributed |
SoCalDem |
Jan-09-05 07:15 AM |
#2 |
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If he feels justified, I hope he does a good job of explaining |
The Backlash Cometh |
Jan-09-05 07:34 AM |
#6 |
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Aw, gee, but don't you know, agribusiness is a GOOD thing! |
No Exit |
Jan-09-05 07:38 AM |
#8 |
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Its really a property rights thing |
sweetheart |
Jan-09-05 01:46 PM |
#31 |
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Chavez is NOT a dictator!!!! |
bvar22 |
Jan-09-05 02:05 PM |
#35 |
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In America, property rights is an institution older than God. |
The Backlash Cometh |
Jan-10-05 07:42 AM |
#57 |
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American property rights includes the principle of adverse possession -- |
AP |
Jan-10-05 09:02 AM |
#61 |
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Adverse Possession does not apply here if the government is |
Bono71 |
Jan-10-05 10:03 AM |
#68 |
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Adverse possession is between two private parties. |
AP |
Jan-10-05 10:28 AM |
#70 |
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I am not sure you understand everything that goes into adverse |
Bono71 |
Jan-10-05 03:57 PM |
#76 |
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It's a new breed, but is based on logic of adverse possession. |
AP |
Jan-11-05 11:04 AM |
#92 |
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Again...Adverse possession is not what is going on here... |
Bono71 |
Jan-11-05 12:54 PM |
#95 |
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I'm using it as an (apt) analogy that explains the economic goal |
AP |
Jan-12-05 12:04 AM |
#99 |
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Right...this is exacly why your analogy does not fit... |
Bono71 |
Jan-12-05 10:33 AM |
#105 |
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The inequitable distribution of land was rememdied by AdvPoss statutes |
AP |
Jan-12-05 10:38 AM |
#107 |
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Hey, I pointed out that I have used AP... |
Bono71 |
Jan-12-05 10:43 AM |
#109 |
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Read the thing I just quoted. |
AP |
Jan-12-05 10:45 AM |
#111 |
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No doubt you are wrong. n/t |
Bono71 |
Jan-12-05 10:48 AM |
#113 |
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That's also a label and not an argument. |
AP |
Jan-12-05 10:49 AM |
#114 |
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lol. |
Bono71 |
Jan-12-05 10:51 AM |
#116 |
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LoL -- "lots of lables"; LoA: "Lack of Argument." |
AP |
Jan-12-05 11:57 AM |
#119 |
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Poeple are all in a tizzy about the rights of the rich. |
gorbal |
Jan-12-05 12:32 AM |
#100 |
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No, what this title holder is "upset" about is the |
Bono71 |
Jan-12-05 10:37 AM |
#106 |
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Not if you are in the way of progress! |
RedCloud |
Jan-10-05 03:47 PM |
#74 |
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Excellent point there, sweetheart!!! |
Just Me |
Jan-09-05 03:42 PM |
#47 |
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Inequitably distributed land not being used productively will destroy ... |
AP |
Jan-09-05 04:00 PM |
#51 |
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Very well put |
Philly Buster |
Jan-10-05 08:27 AM |
#58 |
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land is freedom property rights is slavery |
poe |
Jan-10-05 08:51 AM |
#60 |
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Nice, |
Bono71 |
Jan-10-05 10:04 AM |
#69 |
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Ahem, that would be a RW talking point. I HATE RWTPs!!! eom |
Just Me |
Jan-10-05 05:39 PM |
#88 |
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That is not a RW talking point, that is pointing |
Bono71 |
Jan-11-05 12:57 PM |
#96 |
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You were just labeling it. You didn't make an argument about breadth |
AP |
Jan-12-05 09:14 AM |
#102 |
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I think you can figure out how it was overbroad and incorrect. n/t |
Bono71 |
Jan-12-05 10:39 AM |
#108 |
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That's a label. That's not an argument. |
AP |
Jan-12-05 10:44 AM |
#110 |
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Race baiting is race baiting. You take a class of people, |
Bono71 |
Jan-12-05 10:47 AM |
#112 |
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What was the stereotype/generalization? |
AP |
Jan-12-05 10:50 AM |
#115 |
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Agree, but you don't have to look... |
bvar22 |
Jan-09-05 01:53 PM |
#32 |
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and the repubes have "blamed" it on taxes |
SoCalDem |
Jan-10-05 03:04 PM |
#71 |
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Like the way we must prove that rich people took the money improperly... |
Darranar |
Jan-09-05 07:21 AM |
#3 |
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It would not be difficult to prove if it were true. |
The Backlash Cometh |
Jan-09-05 07:32 AM |
#5 |
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That's probably true. But the question is what to do NOW... |
Darranar |
Jan-09-05 07:37 AM |
#7 |
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But what if a government is owned by corrupt |
No Exit |
Jan-09-05 07:46 AM |
#9 |
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Or do what they did in Honolulu & Atlantic City: Raise the property taxes |
TankLV |
Jan-09-05 12:18 PM |
#22 |
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Exactly. Sounds just like the sorts of tactics that the |
No Exit |
Jan-09-05 11:18 PM |
#55 |
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There are land grabs, then there are land grabs. |
The Backlash Cometh |
Jan-09-05 04:39 PM |
#54 |
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Yes, and some government or quasi-government positions |
No Exit |
Jan-09-05 11:26 PM |
#56 |
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At one time the British held title to the land we are living on too BC |
NNN0LHI |
Jan-09-05 10:29 AM |
#17 |
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It is sort of what comes around, goes around, isn't it? |
KitSileya |
Jan-10-05 09:27 AM |
#67 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jan-09-05 02:11 PM |
#37 |
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The right-wing consolidates power. The left-wing deconsolidates power. |
w4rma |
Jan-10-05 09:06 AM |
#64 |
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...and what Chávez wants to do is to allow people to decentralize the ... |
AP |
Jan-10-05 09:13 AM |
#66 |
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Land reform is the most misunderstood policy on earth |
HamdenRice |
Jan-09-05 07:24 AM |
#4 |
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So True! And I'll add this: in the US this kind of land reform is en- |
AP |
Jan-09-05 03:58 PM |
#49 |
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Incorrect, (see post above). |
Bono71 |
Jan-10-05 05:33 PM |
#87 |
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You are a little misinformed about Hawaii... |
Bono71 |
Jan-10-05 05:32 PM |
#86 |
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Is this part of what you were discussing? Found it in google..... |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-10-05 06:43 PM |
#91 |
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Here are some articlles posted in the last day or two on a similar thread |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-09-05 07:59 AM |
#10 |
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They should offer him a buyout... |
BAPhill |
Jan-09-05 08:16 AM |
#11 |
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Corporations do "hostile takeovers" all the time |
SoCalDem |
Jan-10-05 04:20 PM |
#80 |
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If society has the authority to draft a person and force him/her to die |
jody |
Jan-09-05 09:54 AM |
#12 |
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Maybe Chavez is going to build a baseball stadium. |
bahrbearian |
Jan-09-05 10:06 AM |
#13 |
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we call that 'Involuntary Annexation'... and it's all perfectly LEGAL |
bpilgrim |
Jan-09-05 10:13 AM |
#14 |
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Doesn't Chimmpy call it " Eminent Domain" |
bahrbearian |
Jan-09-05 10:26 AM |
#16 |
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Or perhaps a highway? n/t |
Darranar |
Jan-09-05 10:13 AM |
#15 |
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Chavez should have been gone long ago... |
Bo |
Jan-09-05 10:36 AM |
#18 |
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"Investors" sounds so.... innocuous |
Canuckistanian |
Jan-09-05 10:49 AM |
#19 |
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What arguable "methods" ? |
bvar22 |
Jan-09-05 01:40 PM |
#30 |
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"Devestors" or "Exvestors" would be a better term. |
AP |
Jan-09-05 04:02 PM |
#52 |
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You have it backwards - it's the foreign colonialists that are the thieves |
TankLV |
Jan-09-05 12:27 PM |
#23 |
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I, for one, am buying it |
brentspeak |
Jan-09-05 01:59 PM |
#33 |
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Having you been following this idle land story |
Robbien |
Jan-09-05 02:14 PM |
#38 |
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Bill Clinton didn't underwrite a coup against Chavez, did he? |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-09-05 02:40 PM |
#40 |
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Clinton was leery of Chavez from the beginning -- and still is |
brentspeak |
Jan-09-05 03:30 PM |
#45 |
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You know, just because we're Democrats doesn't mean we defer |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-09-05 03:59 PM |
#50 |
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not a dimes worth of difference |
tinanator |
Jan-10-05 08:34 AM |
#59 |
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I've seen complimentary quotes about one from the other here. |
AP |
Jan-10-05 09:05 AM |
#63 |
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Clinton is a mixed bag on Venezuela and Chavez ... |
bin.dare |
Jan-09-05 04:38 PM |
#53 |
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Albright is on the board of N.E.D., IIRC. |
AP |
Jan-10-05 09:07 AM |
#65 |
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"the price is worth it" says Albright ... |
bin.dare |
Jan-10-05 05:24 PM |
#85 |
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A wacko sure - at least a wacko on the side of the poor |
clem_c_rock |
Jan-09-05 12:34 PM |
#24 |
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Wacko is a term used only by BushCo backers, his spinmeisters |
Robbien |
Jan-09-05 12:42 PM |
#26 |
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Two types of people... |
bvar22 |
Jan-09-05 02:01 PM |
#34 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jan-09-05 02:23 PM |
#39 |
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You might be able to see him waving from the blue house |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-09-05 02:50 PM |
#42 |
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You seem to be ignorant of history... |
Solon |
Jan-09-05 03:15 PM |
#43 |
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I travel there too and disagree with you strongly. You must only |
SharonAnn |
Jan-09-05 03:53 PM |
#48 |
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Chavez gives the land to the citizens; |
rman |
Jan-11-05 01:40 PM |
#97 |
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hmmm....um... |
AlbizuX |
Jan-09-05 10:59 AM |
#20 |
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Damn Right! |
hughee99 |
Jan-12-05 11:36 AM |
#117 |
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You Go, Hugo!!!! |
bvar22 |
Jan-09-05 11:17 AM |
#21 |
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Viva CHAVEZ!! |
Chicago Democrat |
Jan-09-05 12:34 PM |
#25 |
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The Vesteys |
fedsron2us |
Jan-09-05 12:44 PM |
#27 |
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Why that Chavez is a bloody Robin Hood!! |
Carl Brennan |
Jan-09-05 12:56 PM |
#28 |
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Most Brits who know about the Vesteys do not like them |
fedsron2us |
Jan-09-05 03:27 PM |
#44 |
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Stealing from the rich and giving to the poor, outrageous! |
IndianaGreen |
Jan-10-05 09:04 AM |
#62 |
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Chavez is the kind of liberal we could use. Three cheers. |
Vidar |
Jan-09-05 01:16 PM |
#29 |
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Before too many people fall for the disinformation about "land grabbing" |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-09-05 02:09 PM |
#36 |
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thanks |
AlbizuX |
Jan-09-05 02:45 PM |
#41 |
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Gasp!! Can such a thing be allowed to happen? |
Jose Diablo |
Jan-09-05 03:32 PM |
#46 |
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From one who lived in Venezuela... |
RedCloud |
Jan-10-05 03:44 PM |
#72 |
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So this is SOP in Venezuela and has been for a long long time |
Robbien |
Jan-10-05 03:53 PM |
#75 |
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Victor Jara and Woody Guthrie chime in! |
RedCloud |
Jan-10-05 04:08 PM |
#78 |
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There is no such thing as a legitimate land title. |
Mike Niendorff |
Jan-10-05 03:46 PM |
#73 |
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So, you are saying two wrongs make a right? n/t |
Bono71 |
Jan-10-05 04:40 PM |
#82 |
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who said there are two wrongs here? |
Mike Niendorff |
Jan-10-05 05:01 PM |
#84 |
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Isn't this what happened in Zimbabwe? |
radric |
Jan-11-05 11:25 AM |
#94 |
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Actually, "all reports" are having a hard time arguing that it |
AP |
Jan-12-05 09:19 AM |
#103 |
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I don't see how this is a good thing. |
Bleachers7 |
Jan-10-05 04:07 PM |
#77 |
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Have you read RedCloud's post #72 ? |
Robbien |
Jan-10-05 04:14 PM |
#79 |
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translation of Ali Primera (Vzla Protest singer) |
RedCloud |
Jan-10-05 04:31 PM |
#81 |
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Thanks for posting Ali Primera and the translation. |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-10-05 06:19 PM |
#90 |
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The right of a man to feed himself is the most fundmental of rights |
Nevernose |
Jan-10-05 04:48 PM |
#83 |
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Anybody want to bet what will happen to the farm? |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-10-05 05:41 PM |
#89 |
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More than likely that will happen.. |
radric |
Jan-12-05 10:09 AM |
#104 |
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hmm |
mojojojo27 |
Jan-11-05 11:23 AM |
#93 |
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Appalling stats from bemildred's thread. Grotesque. |
Judi Lynn |
Jan-11-05 03:01 PM |
#98 |
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No need to weep for the Vesteys. |
Matilda |
Jan-12-05 01:32 AM |
#101 |
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pretty sure the same policy has been in place in Costa Rica for years |
blindpig |
Jan-12-05 11:52 AM |
#118 |