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On the Road

(20,783 posts)
61. It Weakens His Case
Mon Sep 9, 2013, 04:37 AM
Sep 2013

because it emphasizes its fallibility when there is no real need to do so. However, I see your point in that Daniel Fincke's goal is rhetorical rather than logical -- he is trying to illuminate the difference between everyday knowledge and faith. And that is instructive in itself.

I guess it stuck out to me because it highlights some weak areas in the new atheist argument. For example, Fincke seems to think that the scientific knowledge is uncertain only to the extent that data samples are unrepresentative (hence his belief in a tiny, tiny chance of error). An infinitely larger source is the human element in applying and interpreting the scientific method. This is easy to see from taking any of the many quaint or wrongheaded scientific consensuses a century ago. However we might correct the reasoning from 1913 today, the point is that at the time the proponents believed they were arriving at a scientifically valid conclusion. New atheism does not appear to recognize the possibility of human error or misapplicaton, although it is highly likely that in a hundred years our beliefs will seem equally quaint.

Another way of approaching this would be to say that valid scientific thought depends on there being a rational agent to apply, interpret, and evaluate it. It is difficult to see how rationality arises from the observable world the new atheists limit themselves to. It is a way of disqualifying yourself from making your own argument, so to speak.

Then there are the issues inherent in logical positivism, which seems to be the closest school of thought to any of the new atheists I have personally read. From the Wikipedia article:

Early critics of logical positivism said that its fundamental tenets could not themselves be formulated consistently. The verifiability criterion of meaning did not seem verifiable; but neither was it simply a logical tautology, since it had implications for the practice of science and the empirical truth of other statements. This presented severe problems for the logical consistency of the theory.

Another problem was that universal claims (e.g. &quot all) philosophers are mortal&quot are problematic in terms of verification. The verifiability criterion was seen as being too strong. In its initial formulation, it made universal statements meaningless, and this was seen as a problem for science. This led to the weakening of the criterion.

And since Finke seems to feel that the consensus of scientists is relevant (“out of over 230,000 participants, roughly 63% of the survey participants have chosen “atheist” as their primary identifier”), there is this:

Most philosophers consider logical positivism to be, as John Passmore expressed it, "dead, or as dead as a philosophical movement ever becomes".[28] By the late 1970s, its ideas were so generally recognized to be seriously defective that one of its own main proponents, A. J. Ayer, could say in an interview: "I suppose the most important (defect)...was that nearly all of it was false."

The new atheists seem to maintain a very 19th century sensibility – an unshakeable belief in logic and their ability to create a coherent, perfectible intellectual world. By contrast, 20th century thought was troubled and uncertain precisely because the limitations of those things became obvious. The most astonishing thing to me is that they have waded directly into these waters in a very public way without an apparent awareness of any of these issues. It is as if the whole 20th century never happened.

Now, new atheists may claim that their concern is not philosophy, but the public debate between atheists and evangelicals. That may be true, but by restricting their audience the only prize they might be said to win is “Congratulations – you’re smarter than an unlettered fundamentalist.”
O, geez... chervilant Sep 2013 #1
He's talking about the basis for nonbelief and the reliance on science for knowledge. rug Sep 2013 #2
What about my post chervilant Sep 2013 #3
It wasn't responsive. rug Sep 2013 #5
Is there a better source than science to rely on for knowledge? cleanhippie Sep 2013 #32
Knowledge of what? rug Sep 2013 #33
I do, for it conflates objective knowledge with subjective knowledge. cleanhippie Sep 2013 #35
Um, math IS a science. AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #52
Augustine on mathematicians: dimbear Sep 2013 #54
Yes, I completely disagree intaglio Sep 2013 #62
The Greeks and Romans had it right. tecelote Sep 2013 #4
I'll be honest and admit I found the linked article unreadable, and so didn't finish it . . . MrModerate Sep 2013 #6
Completely agree edhopper Sep 2013 #7
Do you know who Daniel Fincke is? rug Sep 2013 #17
No edhopper Sep 2013 #22
Google him. You'll find reason to believe he's met an atheist. rug Sep 2013 #23
You missunderstand what I said edhopper Sep 2013 #39
I know who he is! xfundy Sep 2013 #46
And not one concrete example in the many pages skepticscott Sep 2013 #8
It reminded me of NYTimes edhopper Sep 2013 #9
Almost as vacant as skepticscott Sep 2013 #10
To post, or not to post. edhopper Sep 2013 #11
Feel free to post what you find interesting. rug Sep 2013 #19
I do edhopper Sep 2013 #21
Post removed Post removed Sep 2013 #18
I see nothing has changed skepticscott Sep 2013 #25
Well. I'd say #10 is a good example of passive-aggressive posturing . . . . er posting. rug Sep 2013 #28
Feel free to engage on the facts skepticscott Sep 2013 #29
Always. BTW #10 is vacant of facts. rug Sep 2013 #31
It asserts the fact that skepticscott Sep 2013 #36
Guess everyone who bet on "evade" skepticscott Sep 2013 #56
I agree. I struggled to even skim the article. cbayer Sep 2013 #13
I agree with your opinion of the newly created term 'agnostic atheist'. Leontius Sep 2013 #14
Absolutely. enlightenment Sep 2013 #30
Religophobia - hits it right on the head for a small subset. cbayer Sep 2013 #12
In the broadest use of the word, yes edhopper Sep 2013 #15
And I refuse to have a nonsensical debate about whether lack of belief is a belief or not. cbayer Sep 2013 #16
I think atheist edhopper Sep 2013 #20
Have you ever heard anyone around here say that? cbayer Sep 2013 #24
It has been discussed here, edhopper Sep 2013 #37
You are right. There have definitely been articles about it. cbayer Sep 2013 #38
Very tricky. edhopper Sep 2013 #40
Fine, then point them out to us skepticscott Sep 2013 #47
I guess it was too much to ask skepticscott Sep 2013 #57
Sure, everyone believes in something, but this is about believing in a god. cleanhippie Sep 2013 #34
"Everyone believes in something." AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #53
Shortly after I wrote that, rug posted this article which states it really nicely, imo. cbayer Sep 2013 #58
I think that article appeals to certain people's confirmation bias. AtheistCrusader Sep 2013 #60
well I believe they're non-existant. . . Stargleamer Sep 2013 #26
this needs to be parsed more finely and thought about more thoroughly.... mike_c Sep 2013 #27
What's this? Burning (Straw) Man #2? longship Sep 2013 #41
I have tried three times to read through this LostOne4Ever Sep 2013 #42
You are definitely not the only one. cbayer Sep 2013 #43
I somehow managed to avoid that one LostOne4Ever Sep 2013 #44
Dickens I loved. cbayer Sep 2013 #45
If you liked the issues and themes in Dickens, okasha Sep 2013 #49
Thanks! cbayer Sep 2013 #50
My friends, you can conquer this phobia. Keep a brand new unopened religion in your desk drawer, dimbear Sep 2013 #48
It is Really Refreshing On the Road Sep 2013 #51
Because Paul Kurtz edhopper Sep 2013 #55
I'm not sure why you say recognizing that knowledge is uncertain weakens his ability to make a ... Jim__ Sep 2013 #59
It Weakens His Case On the Road Sep 2013 #61
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