Gun Control & RKBA

MicaelS

(8,747 posts)

23. The whole point of your framing of the debate of

Wed Nov 7, 2012, 02:11 PM

Nov 2012

"The scientific evidence when it comes to gun violence" is that it is an attempt to change the debate from one of personal rights to one of public health, so you can do an end run around the legislative system. And gun owners are not going to let that happen.

Since you and your fellow Gun Prohibitionists know you will never get the blanket ban you want on semi-automatics and / or handguns passed through direct means, that means your only other method is to completely re-frame the debate on other terms, which you hope will be more favorable to your side.

In that respect, you are just like the RW Anti-Choice people, who know they can not ever get their "Human Life Amendment" passed, thought they have trying since Reagan. So they have been chipping away at the Right to Chose by incremental and underhanded stealth tactics for the last 30 years. And unfortunately they have been very successful. We don't plan to let you repeat their success.

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Assault Weapons Ban supporter wins presidency, crushing NRA-backed right-winger!!! [View all] DanTex Nov 2012 OP

Democrat beats Republican sarisataka Nov 2012 #1

I can pretty well guarantee that any new AWB glacierbay Nov 2012 #4

You are actually the first I have seen who has made any statements like these: ThatPoetGuy Nov 2012 #5

It is often overlooked sarisataka Nov 2012 #64

it is Not that rights have limits, it is That rights have Responsibilities. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #109

I like that phrasing better sarisataka Nov 2012 #116

thanks Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #119

Then you haven't been looking... friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #112

Yes I have. And I've seen your posts. ThatPoetGuy Nov 2012 #120

You've either got a memory problem, or your pants are on fire. Which is it? friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #127

You also seem to have missed these threads started just yesterday friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #128

That pretty much sums up where I'm at OriginalGeek Nov 2012 #8

I have to go buy a holster this afternoon. jeepnstein Nov 2012 #2

Just bought an Akers flatsider and a desantis miniscabbard trouble.smith Nov 2012 #125

I am as happy as you are to see the President reelected. hack89 Nov 2012 #3

I'm happy that President Obama won. Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #6

I agree 100% with Atypical Liberal Yavapai Nov 2012 #31

Every word of this post speaks to my actions and sentiments. NT Simo 1939_1940 Nov 2012 #88

+10- I can't disagree with a word of that. friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #114

If it's such a political winner... krispos42 Nov 2012 #7

There is no "gun violence epidemic" - That is a myth being pushed by authoritarian extremists slackmaster Nov 2012 #9

Mass murder by firearms is up...eom Kolesar Nov 2012 #10

No it isn't; it's just more reported by the media. Mass murder is indeed down. n/t Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #11

Is so Kolesar Nov 2012 #19

it doesn't say it is up either. gejohnston Nov 2012 #25

Your own link states that the number of mass murders are the same. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #26

The headline on that piece is disingenuous. "Not down" does not mean the same as "up." slackmaster Nov 2012 #94

The Washington Post recently cited some actual research that debunks that claim slackmaster Nov 2012 #16

Actually, it's a statistical reality recognized by leading public health experts. DanTex Nov 2012 #15

Whatever anyone else says, the FBI's hard numbers show crime rates decreasing slackmaster Nov 2012 #17

And we still have 30,000 gun deaths a year. DanTex Nov 2012 #20

A tiny number in America's population. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #22

Wow. 30K deaths per year is "miniscule". DanTex Nov 2012 #33

Evade, evade, "Moral high ground", evade. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #34

Evade what? DanTex Nov 2012 #40

It is statistically insignificant; you know that. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #43

That is not true at all. DanTex Nov 2012 #50

Vietnam was -not- a big deal in terms of casualties. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #55

Interesting. I see that even you understand that what you are saying is so preposterous DanTex Nov 2012 #59

No, I just figured you'd alert and, failing that, run to Meta to cry about it. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #65

So we're back to "lots of people die -- 30,000 more is no big deal". DanTex Nov 2012 #70

I think the thread has been enlightening as well. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #73

Ignore what science? Are you just making things up? DanTex Nov 2012 #74

You asked what statistical insignificance was. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #76

You are making less and less sense every post. DanTex Nov 2012 #80

Your argument is: Guns kill. While true, it's also false. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #83

Umm... no, that's no my argument. DanTex Nov 2012 #89

Are suicides a gun problem or a mental health problem? hack89 Nov 2012 #95

It is both. Why can't pro-gunners understand the concept that there DanTex Nov 2012 #99

So lets treat it as a mental health problem hack89 Nov 2012 #100

How about we address both? DanTex Nov 2012 #101

So what gun law would significantly decrease suicides? nt hack89 Nov 2012 #102

For example, waiting periods. DanTex Nov 2012 #103

The mental health screening would be blatantly unconstitutional hack89 Nov 2012 #104

According to Scalia, maybe. DanTex Nov 2012 #105

Not willing to actually discuss my points? What at shock hack89 Nov 2012 #106

I was talking about the extent of the gun violence epidemic when you entered the conversation. DanTex Nov 2012 #107

You conflate two separate issues to support your anti-gun bias hack89 Nov 2012 #110

No I don't. I simply report the true extent of the death toll from guns. DanTex Nov 2012 #111

You converted a complex phenomena into a black and white cartoon with guns as the main villain hack89 Nov 2012 #113

Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. DanTex Nov 2012 #118

As long as gun deaths continue to decline like they have for the past 30 years hack89 Nov 2012 #126

Just to be clear, hack, I have a couple questions. beevul Nov 2012 #129

I support all existing laws hack89 Nov 2012 #134

Elegant proof... beevul Nov 2012 #136

Start taking rights away from the sick, Glaug-Eldare Nov 2012 #141

There's also plenty of evidence that shows gun ownership doesn't matter. friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #121

Correct. Compare it to the Civil War and both world wars and see. friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #115

Half of the number reflects a mental health issue hack89 Nov 2012 #35

Ok glacierbay Nov 2012 #38

Exactly. n/t Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #45

Any time you include suicides in this discussion you've just lost the debate. Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #42

Why is that? DanTex Nov 2012 #47

Because I'm not going to allow what someone chooses to do to themselves affect ME. Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #53

Then why do these countries with stricter gun laws have higher suicide rates than the US? friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #117

"And we still have 30,000 gun deaths a year." EX500rider Nov 2012 #97

He doesn't give a shit about non-gun suicides or traffic deaths- they don't help his case. friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #122

Why the hell does my wife's b-day have to be after an election? Glassunion Nov 2012 #12

You might get some killer sales. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #14

Plenty of "real Americans" own guns and voted Democrat. MicaelS Nov 2012 #13

Actually, what I made clear is that pro-gun extremism is comparable to things DanTex Nov 2012 #18

The whole point of your framing of the debate of MicaelS Nov 2012 #23

Absolutely right glacierbay Nov 2012 #27

It is a public health issue. DanTex Nov 2012 #28

It's not an enormous number; stop dodging. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #30

Yes, it is an enormous number. DanTex Nov 2012 #36

And poisoning takes 66 days off. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #41

Poisonings and car accidents are big problems also. DanTex Nov 2012 #46

Epidemic according to whom? glacierbay Nov 2012 #51

According to public health experts on gun violence. DanTex Nov 2012 #56

Statistically significant: Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #60

LOL. That was a serious clueless post. DanTex Nov 2012 #66

You completely missed my point. glacierbay Nov 2012 #61

Well, you probably want to talk to your buddy Decoy. DanTex Nov 2012 #67

How many time do I have to explain what I'm saying? glacierbay Nov 2012 #69

It depends what you mean by "statistically insignificant". DanTex Nov 2012 #71

I've explained myself in the simplest terms I can glacierbay Nov 2012 #77

You have done no such thing. DanTex Nov 2012 #79

You seem to have a big problem telling the truth glacierbay Nov 2012 #84

Again with the boldface... DanTex Nov 2012 #91

There is -every- reason to tolerate said "Extreme" levels. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #58

No there isn't. Not even close. DanTex Nov 2012 #63

Allow me to refresh your memory. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #68

Just because you say guns are a civil right doesn't make it true. DanTex Nov 2012 #72

Then by your argument... Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #75

What? Now you're saying I don't want blacks to vote? DanTex Nov 2012 #78

They are basic civil liberties as outlined by the Constitution. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #81

Let's face the truth here glacierbay Nov 2012 #86

Thanks, brother. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #92

Whoo-WEEE! Got that right. Bull in da ring.nt Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #139

This message was self-deleted by its author AnotherMcIntosh Nov 2012 #148

The second amendment is about militias if that is what you mean. DanTex Nov 2012 #87

By your lights, President Obama has a "silly grade-school understanding of civil liberties" friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #130

That horse is dead. You can quite beating it. GreenStormCloud Nov 2012 #143

Now THAT's a load. Glaug-Eldare Nov 2012 #142

And the #1 reason glacierbay Nov 2012 #44

Let's look at some more reaslistic numbers, shall we? Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #49

Thanks for the stats. DanTex Nov 2012 #54

No problem. Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #57

It is a mental health issue (suicides) and a criminal justice issue (violent crimes) hack89 Nov 2012 #39

You can keep screaming and stomping your feet as much as you want rl6214 Nov 2012 #52

Not quite, you are about the only one that actually thinks gejohnston Nov 2012 #24

The Harvard School of Public Health also thinks so. DanTex Nov 2012 #29

not quite, it is a couple of ideolouges and departments who get grants from from gejohnston Nov 2012 #32

Odd. "Public Health Law Research" finds all of his proposals inconclusive. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #37

LOL. "after checking a few studies" DanTex Nov 2012 #82

I said some of HIS studies were biased. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #85

Of course: "the studies are biased". DanTex Nov 2012 #93

Repeatedly asserting is not "making clear", no matter how *you* feel about the subject. friendly_iconoclast Nov 2012 #123

You didn't notice the two NRA supported Dems speaking at the DNC? gejohnston Nov 2012 #21

All that means is there will be a HUGE run on guns and ammo, stimulating the economy rl6214 Nov 2012 #48

Weak argument 4th law of robotics Nov 2012 #62

The NRA sunk millions into the election, calling Obama the most anti-gun president ever. DanTex Nov 2012 #98

They wasted their money slackmaster Nov 2012 #138

"and start to do something about the 30,000 people who die every year from gun violence" EX500rider Nov 2012 #144

Given Glacierbay's statement upthread, I agree. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #90

Hey, if you want to ignore the numbers, that's up to you. DanTex Nov 2012 #96

Actually it's 30,000 people killed by people. AtheistCrusader Nov 2012 #124

You insist on holding others responsible for their own actions. Atypical Liberal Nov 2012 #133

you sound like a one issue voter. Tuesday Afternoon Nov 2012 #108

Ouch discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #132

Not only that but... discntnt_irny_srcsm Nov 2012 #131

What other "epidemic" has seen a 50 percent drop in mortality? nt hack89 Nov 2012 #135

AIDS slackmaster Nov 2012 #145

Let's review what the President actually said about the AWB, shall we? aikoaiko Nov 2012 #137

Better title: AWB-supporter beats AWB-voter. There. All fixed. Eleanors38 Nov 2012 #140

Touché Glassunion Nov 2012 #147

I over reacted in post #12 Glassunion Nov 2012 #146

GOP/NRA CABAL = LOOOOOOOOSSSSEEEERRRRS!!!! ellisonz Nov 2012 #149

Algebra? o.O Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #150

"I'm not certain I follow." ellisonz Nov 2012 #151

That's not arithmetic, it's algebra. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #153

furthering to polarize the country i see IvanKilmensky Nov 2012 #152

You'll get used to it. He's a proud bigot when it comes to guns. Decoy of Fenris Nov 2012 #154

What exactly has Obama done about the gun violence epidemic? hack89 Nov 2012 #155

BRAVO fightthegoodfightnow Nov 2012 #156