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Gun Control & RKBA

In reply to the discussion: Dear Gun Carriers [View all]
 

Clames

(2,038 posts)
110. So much wrong. Where to start...
Sun Oct 14, 2012, 07:12 PM
Oct 2012
The 2nd Amendment is NOT about carrying.

If you read the appropriate SCOTUS decisions, it stipulates that it applies ONLY to home, not carry, and it stipulates that each state has a great deal of latitude in restricting firearms, so long as they don't ban them entirely in the home.


The SCOTUS hasn't made that decision YET. That is a fairly obvious point you've seemed to gloss over. So no, you can't say absolutely that the 2nd Amendment is not about carrying because that decision has not been established by SCOTUS. Well, you can but that only goes as far as your opinion goes.

The problem with your approach is that it involves taking law into your own hands, instead of opting for a civilized society where law enforcement provides the protection. Instead, we see conservatives promoting more private guns, but cutting the funding for law enforcement and for our courts. Bad choice for allocating resources.


The problem with your approach is that it fails to address the simple and established fact that LEO's have no duty to protect individuals not in their custody. Anti-gunners frequently turn to the "vigilantism" aspect to support their arguments but that only proves that they don't even know the definition of the word much less how it doesn't factor into self-defense usage of a firearm.

And the pro-gunners oppose measures intended to keep firearms out of the hands of criminals in the first place.


Of course you have absolutely nothing to cite to support this irrational statement. Maybe you've forgotten who supported the NICS legislation? Maybe you'd care to cite those specific measures then explain how exactly those measures would actually be effective in keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals. ProTip: Assault Weapon and magazine bans did nothing in that respect.

The reality is that if someone is set on robbing you, they will, even if you're armed. It isn't terribly difficult to get the drop on someone by having their gun pointed at you ready to shoot before you can get to yours. Or having a second person behind you who plugs you before you can shoot the guy in front.


The reality here is you have an active imagination and nothing stated here has a basis in reality. In fact, several incidents have been posted here where an individual has defended themselves with their own firearm despite the criminal having the drop on them. Some cases against multiple criminals. Your point actually highlights very strongly why being armed is that much better because if someone is set on criminal action then deterrent effects such as police presence certainly cannot be relied upon by itself.

The reality is that our gun culture escalates violence, where countries with fewer firearms don't have similar problems. You can try to win a private arms race, but it is a losing proposition. And frankly most of the pro-gunners have unrealistic expectations anyway about how much good their firearm will provide them.


Gun culture does not escalate violence. Drug culture and gang culture do. Funny you talk about correlation is not indicative on one thing yet you state that countries with fewer firearms don't have similar problems like it's the sole differentiating factor. You are wrong for making that assumption because there are countries with fewer guns that have higher per capita rates of violent crime because they also suffer from rampant gang and drug problems. Anti-gunners seem to have an utter lack of understanding such dynamics and as such have unrealistic expectations of the effectiveness of the gun-control laws they advocate.

If you rely too much on your firearm, you don't rely enough on alternative solutions to stay safe.


That's only if you assume every gun owner relies on their firearm to such an extent. Many in fact use the firearm as part of a more comprehensive system which is vastly better than those who simply rely on deadbolts and police response times.


I don't want to see anyone be unsafe; however the end result with our proliferation of firearms has NOT been to make us safer.


Hasn't made anyone less safe either. That's a commonly stated fallacy of anti-gunners though. Since private gun ownership has increased at the same time there has been an overall decrease in crime it's difficult to fathom why some cling to that notion. I will not state that more guns = more safety to the general population because I know there is little evidence to support such a statement just like there is little evidence to support more guns = more crime. I can support that reasoning because the CDC found exactly the same when they reviewed dozens of studies on both sides of the debate.
Dear Gun Carriers [View all] SecularMotion Oct 2012 OP
Hey look everybody Berserker Oct 2012 #1
+1 n/t a geek named Bob Oct 2012 #2
Do you live in a red state? SecularMotion Oct 2012 #3
do you always buy in to classist bullshit? gejohnston Oct 2012 #8
You have a problem with liberals? SecularMotion Oct 2012 #10
only faux liberals that are just as bigoted gejohnston Oct 2012 #14
+1,000 CokeMachine Oct 2012 #35
not Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #83
yeah it was me gejohnston Oct 2012 #112
Are you the one that posts all that nonsense glacierbay Oct 2012 #122
This seriously reminds me DWC Oct 2012 #103
I had that same thought myself. Sorta hope it is, actually, I miss petronius Oct 2012 #106
My life was never the same after I visited, and worked on the farm Simo 1939_1940 Oct 2012 #137
Not at all. CokeMachine Oct 2012 #36
Do you activly support the Brady Campaign or the VPC? oneshooter Oct 2012 #46
defining red state Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #84
the only thing I read was gejohnston Oct 2012 #111
He speaks!! Why don't you break routine and tell us what you think? Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #31
your mistake Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #85
You're wordy.nt Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #125
In the interest of accuracy, Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #140
Do you really believe that the anti's care about accuracy? oneshooter Oct 2012 #141
No. Passion is the coin of the realm. nt Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #142
Check the date... ProgressiveProfessor Oct 2012 #11
Why are you offended by a piece that smears white, flabby and crabby, conservatives? SecularMotion Oct 2012 #13
smearing is for stupid ignorant assholes gejohnston Oct 2012 #17
Do you also have problems with white, flabby Democrats? holdencaufield Oct 2012 #28
So you are a fan of smears? ProgressiveProfessor Oct 2012 #30
Broad brush smears of ethnic groups 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #45
I thought the same thing. Callisto32 Oct 2012 #136
Aren't you special? jeepnstein Oct 2012 #124
Hahahahaha i cant stop laughing!!! xoom Oct 2012 #143
Such economy. A classic. Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #150
This is the exact same reason why I've given up surfing, diving, bathing, and petronius Oct 2012 #4
You've never heard of a shark cage? SecularMotion Oct 2012 #5
That's what I'm saying - you can never be too safe petronius Oct 2012 #6
I carried my pistol all day without incident, 10/13/12 ileus Oct 2012 #7
Any good sales at Walmart? SecularMotion Oct 2012 #9
what is the difference between Wal Mart, gejohnston Oct 2012 #12
I received my complete tierod assembly in this week from Amazon ileus Oct 2012 #21
I didn't see much really. ileus Oct 2012 #19
I went to a Walmart after work today Reasonable_Argument Oct 2012 #32
I'm glad you are can afford to shop elsewhere. CokeMachine Oct 2012 #37
Fuck that shit and the horse it rode in, in. Callisto32 Oct 2012 #15
The fact that the gunners defend white, flabby and crabby, conservatives SecularMotion Oct 2012 #16
I'm white and flabby gejohnston Oct 2012 #18
You sound a little crabby SecularMotion Oct 2012 #23
only when I read trash gejohnston Oct 2012 #24
Lighten up, Francis SecularMotion Oct 2012 #25
you buy the case of Red Stripe gejohnston Oct 2012 #26
Your stuff sounds a little clamy -- and not very fresh either. nt CokeMachine Oct 2012 #38
This message was self-deleted by its author Tuesday Afternoon Oct 2012 #78
Then they hate big city mayors safeinOhio Oct 2012 #22
You do realize this blogger is talking about you. aikoaiko Oct 2012 #27
That is also true, however safeinOhio Oct 2012 #41
Just give us a synopsis of Vol. 1. nt Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #33
Hmm, I was taking umbrage... Callisto32 Oct 2012 #133
Could have a good discussion on carrying but this July story is bullshit era veteran Oct 2012 #20
wrong o Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #86
It is your right to defend yourself in Kentucky era veteran Oct 2012 #91
How do the police protect me? hack89 Oct 2012 #92
The Second Amendment is very much about carrying.... PavePusher Oct 2012 #108
So much wrong. Where to start... Clames Oct 2012 #110
Where does it say that Law Enforcement have a duty to protect the individual? oneshooter Oct 2012 #113
"for traditionally lawful purposes, SUCH AS self-defense within the home." -- that's from Heller. X_Digger Oct 2012 #116
"We used to get such a better class of anti-." Common Sense Party Oct 2012 #139
Hate to break this to you glacierbay Oct 2012 #123
Answering some of your baloney. GreenStormCloud Oct 2012 #145
Tough. Shit. Clames Oct 2012 #29
This post sounds suspiciously like an "import." nt Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #34
Gonna post some wicked Live Journal smackdowns next? Union Scribe Oct 2012 #39
Well... Reasonable_Argument Oct 2012 #40
OK, I'm here --- address me with your comments and/or questions Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #42
Should we even count people who live in red states as humans? ileus Oct 2012 #43
oh booo hoooo Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #48
Ah, it's about "those people". Got it. PavePusher Oct 2012 #63
not confused at all Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #87
It's not vigilanteeism; police are NOT required to protect you friendly_iconoclast Oct 2012 #99
Please cite some of this "'shoot first' legislation" you refer to. PavePusher Oct 2012 #100
We can start with FL's famous version. Callisto32 Oct 2012 #135
That would be ignorance you can fix with education. Callisto32 Oct 2012 #134
Elitism fit for the 1%. rrneck Oct 2012 #144
#3... citations, please? PavePusher Oct 2012 #66
not so Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #89
A dodge, an argumentum ad verecundiam, and a claim of elitism.... PavePusher Oct 2012 #109
Do you seriously expect to denigrate all men... MicaelS Oct 2012 #132
I like it when I make the difference. 2ndAmForComputers Oct 2012 #138
and? gejohnston Oct 2012 #114
Why don't you correlate violent crimes to total number of legally owned guns? 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #44
Because we don't track that data, and because the NRA has effectively blocked attempts to do so Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #49
"However we do know that the more guns, the greater the number of incidents of gun violence." 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #50
Sure Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #54
Cite your stats, please. n/t PavePusher Oct 2012 #67
Well.... PavePusher Oct 2012 #68
are you incapable of looking anything up yourself? Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #93
Hmmm, why the hostility? Yet you claim -we're- not capable of good decision-making...??? PavePusher Oct 2012 #104
Hah 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #77
Aw, c'mon- self-contradiction in the first three sentences of a post is AWESOME! friendly_iconoclast Oct 2012 #107
Colorado does NOT require a Background check for a private sale Trunk Monkey Oct 2012 #82
Basic gun safety should be taught in public schools slackmaster Oct 2012 #47
NO, it shouldn't Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #52
Thank you. Warren Stupidity Oct 2012 #53
My pleasure. Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #56
Welcome to DU and this particular group. uppityperson Oct 2012 #74
Yes, it should. Even ignoring that students in non-gun-owning households petronius Oct 2012 #55
This is not an appropriate subject for school Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #58
A couple of hours at most out of the school year, that might save a life? petronius Oct 2012 #60
Saving lives isn't in their interest...adding stats is. ileus Oct 2012 #72
Didn't you claim above that gun homocide and injury was a public health problem? PavePusher Oct 2012 #71
Yes, they did: "We have what is and should be a problem with firearms that should be treated as... friendly_iconoclast Oct 2012 #101
I suspect many anti-gunnies would like gun safety not taught at schools aikoaiko Oct 2012 #90
You know what firearms safety training consists of for children right? AtheistCrusader Oct 2012 #128
There are numerous laws prohibiting children from having sex 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #57
What? Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #59
Who are you to say what does or does not have a place in school? slackmaster Oct 2012 #65
Post removed Post removed Oct 2012 #81
"they're learning about it, not having sex." PavePusher Oct 2012 #69
"What do you think 'firearms safety training" entails?" They don't know, obviously. friendly_iconoclast Oct 2012 #102
Post removed Post removed Mar 2014 #153
It does follow quite logically 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #75
Age appropriate firearms safety training in this case is “Stop. Don’t touch. Leave the area. Tell an AtheistCrusader Oct 2012 #129
One hour out of an entire school year would be a great investment and would do no harm... slackmaster Oct 2012 #64
So safety education is not an effective means of reducing deaths and violence? hack89 Oct 2012 #73
Ignorance = safety 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #76
I don't have a firearm now, but I had one when I was a kid. ZombieHorde Oct 2012 #79
I was in JROTC in High School. MicaelS Oct 2012 #127
Correction needed... Eleanors38 Oct 2012 #149
I agree. ZombieHorde Oct 2012 #80
why not offer it as an optional outside-of-school class? Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #94
Rifle Club or the Skeet Team would be appropriate extra-curricular options, or electives petronius Oct 2012 #98
You don't really know what firearms safety training consists of, do you? friendly_iconoclast Oct 2012 #105
I don't think I would want the gun classes to be mandatory. ZombieHorde Oct 2012 #115
A basic understanding of firearms can become essential to any person's life slackmaster Oct 2012 #121
Bullshit. AtheistCrusader Oct 2012 #130
Real men carry an axe. n/t 2on2u Oct 2012 #51
???????? Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #61
These weapons threads can get so heated at times.... a little levity can be a good thing. n/t 2on2u Oct 2012 #62
yes...... Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #70
That image is of a person holding the hand of a starving child, it is in every message I post, it is 2on2u Oct 2012 #97
This is interesting. rrneck Oct 2012 #88
gishy Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #95
Ah. rrneck Oct 2012 #96
keep guns out of stores -- and off our street Dog Gone at Penigma Oct 2012 #117
"improve their health and education" holdencaufield Oct 2012 #118
Keep guns out of stores. ... rrneck Oct 2012 #119
And just how, pray tell, glacierbay Oct 2012 #126
Why do you seem to correlate 'red/blue' divisions in concealed carry? AtheistCrusader Oct 2012 #131
The entire premise is flawed. Atypical Liberal Oct 2012 #120
Education is the answer. Francis Marion Oct 2012 #146
Firearms should also be registered and insured like vehicles. SecularMotion Oct 2012 #147
Yes- computers, books and papers too. Francis Marion Oct 2012 #148
Not all vehicles need to be registered and insured. Clames Oct 2012 #151
Limiting basic rights to only those who can afford them 4th law of robotics Oct 2012 #152
he should be sued for false advertizing gejohnston Mar 2014 #154
This message was self-deleted by its author Lizzie Poppet Mar 2014 #155
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