HomeLatest ThreadsGreatest ThreadsForums & GroupsMy SubscriptionsMy Posts
DU Home » Latest Threads » Forums & Groups » Topics » Justice & Public Safety » Gun Control & RKBA (Group) » The Case for Gun Control ... » Reply #50
Introducing Discussionist: A new forum by the creators of DU

Response to samsingh (Reply #19)

Thu Aug 9, 2012, 06:39 PM

50. There's very little substance, but OK.

 

Congress passed the first set of federal laws regulating, licensing and taxing guns in 1934. The act was challenged and went to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1939. Franklin Delano Roosevelt's solicitor general, Robert H. Jackson, said the Second Amendment grants people a right that "is not one which may be utilized for private purposes but only one which exists where the arms are borne in the militia or some other military organization provided for by law and intended for the protection of the state." The court agreed unanimously.


The Court most emphatically did not agree with that. If it had, the fraud responsible for that paragraph (whether it be a professor or journalist) should have cited the decision, not the Solicitor General.

Robert Jackson did make a ludicrous argument, but the Court didn't bite. It said nothing that any literate English speaker could interpret to be equivalent to the bolded quote above.

I have a book, Supreme Court Gun Cases, that goes through every Supreme Court gun case until just before Heller. The Court has never said anything remotely equivalent to the bolded quote. It has said many things opposing the bolded quote. If the lying quote bolded above where true, it would have contradicted lots of previous Supreme Court statements on RKBA.

For example, the very first time the Supreme Court mentioned the Second Amendment, it called it and other fundamental rights, "rights of person." That's about as clear as you can possibly get in saying that a right is personal, and RKBA is a personal right, just like speech is a personal right. That was the first mention after the Bill of Rights was passed. The Court also said in the same case that citizens had the right to travel freely in any state and to keep and bear arms wherever they went. That was the status of the law the first time the Court spoke on the matter.

There have also been more recent cases where the Court's language has made clear that the right is personal. In addition to that, the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment wrote that Amendment specifically and explicitly to ensure that people, individually, had a right to carry arms and that states would be forced to respect that right. This had nothing do do with a militia or protecting the state, and they were very clear on that point.

This is supported with citations in the link I gave you before.

Things started to change in the 1970s as various right-wing groups coalesced to challenge gun control, overturning laws in state legislatures, Congress and the courts. But Chief Justice Warren Burger, a conservative appointed by Richard Nixon, described the new interpretation of the Second Amendment in an interview after his tenure as "one of the greatest pieces of fraud--I repeat the word fraud--on the American public by special-interest groups that I have ever seen in my lifetime."


Burger was wrong. EVERYONE knows it—all legal scholars of all persuasions.

The lie of omission in the "change" theory is that the law is changing back. Since 1939, the courts have pretended to understand Miller to say something it clearly does not (if you doubt me, google and read "Can the Simple Cite be Trusted" or simply read the Miller case and the arguments on both sides.

The part about concealed carry is truth being pressed into the service of a lie. Yes, concealed carry was not understood in the Founding Era as being protected by the Second Amendment. But open carry was protected. It was not perfectly protected, but that does not mean that it was not a right. (The First Amendment was definitely not perfectly protected for decades; google "Alien and Sedition Acts.")

What the antis did was make open carry, the individual, personal right that the Second Amendment protected and the Fourteenth Amendment made applicable to the states, widely "illegal." They are now trying to use the fact that concealed carry was unprotected in many states to fight against all carry. But the reason why concealed carry is so prevalent and necessary, at least one of them, is that the antis have trampled the Constitution for decades, making open carry rare and "taboo."

According to the Second and Fourteenth Amendments, there is a right to keep and bear arms in New York City. If New York City, Chicago, LA, Hawaii and other unconstitutional enclaves want to forbid concealed carry, they can. But according to the text and history of the Second and Fourteenth Amendments, they cannot also forbid open carry. It's concealed or open, not concealed or nothing.

Reply to this post

Back to OP Alert abuse Link to post in-thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum
Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 183 replies Author Time Post
samsingh Aug 2012 OP
COLGATE4 Aug 2012 #1
samsingh Aug 2012 #3
Equate Aug 2012 #18
samsingh Aug 2012 #20
Equate Aug 2012 #28
samsingh Aug 2012 #31
Equate Aug 2012 #41
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #42
samsingh Aug 2012 #54
Equate Aug 2012 #64
samsingh Aug 2012 #96
gejohnston Aug 2012 #100
samsingh Aug 2012 #104
oneshooter Aug 2012 #110
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #111
samsingh Aug 2012 #116
gejohnston Aug 2012 #128
gejohnston Aug 2012 #120
samsingh Aug 2012 #121
gejohnston Aug 2012 #134
samsingh Aug 2012 #131
gejohnston Aug 2012 #136
samsingh Aug 2012 #149
rDigital Aug 2012 #175
Tuesday Afternoon Aug 2012 #179
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #81
samsingh Aug 2012 #97
samsingh Aug 2012 #99
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #113
samsingh Aug 2012 #124
samsingh Aug 2012 #150
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #152
samsingh Aug 2012 #153
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #162
PavePusher Aug 2012 #88
samsingh Aug 2012 #98
gejohnston Aug 2012 #102
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #106
samsingh Aug 2012 #107
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #109
samsingh Aug 2012 #115
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #117
samsingh Aug 2012 #123
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #126
samsingh Aug 2012 #127
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #132
samsingh Aug 2012 #133
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #135
Jenoch Aug 2012 #140
samsingh Aug 2012 #146
Jenoch Aug 2012 #182
samsingh Aug 2012 #183
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #142
samsingh Aug 2012 #147
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #159
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #178
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #151
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #139
samsingh Aug 2012 #154
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #163
pipoman Aug 2012 #176
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #177
gejohnston Aug 2012 #29
PavePusher Aug 2012 #87
samsingh Aug 2012 #125
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #22
COLGATE4 Aug 2012 #155
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #160
bongbong Aug 2012 #2
samsingh Aug 2012 #129
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #4
samsingh Aug 2012 #6
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #12
samsingh Aug 2012 #16
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #25
samsingh Aug 2012 #30
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #55
samsingh Aug 2012 #130
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #14
samsingh Aug 2012 #19
LineLineLineLineLineReply There's very little substance, but OK.
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #50
samsingh Aug 2012 #53
bongbong Aug 2012 #62
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #70
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #75
samsingh Aug 2012 #101
gejohnston Aug 2012 #103
samsingh Aug 2012 #105
gejohnston Aug 2012 #137
bongbong Aug 2012 #158
gejohnston Aug 2012 #166
bongbong Aug 2012 #167
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #165
Adrahil Aug 2012 #180
DanTex Aug 2012 #36
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #79
gejohnston Aug 2012 #5
samsingh Aug 2012 #7
gejohnston Aug 2012 #11
samsingh Aug 2012 #13
gejohnston Aug 2012 #23
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #8
samsingh Aug 2012 #9
gejohnston Aug 2012 #17
samsingh Aug 2012 #27
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #33
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #37
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #44
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #48
gejohnston Aug 2012 #43
Trunk Monkey Aug 2012 #92
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #32
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #40
gejohnston Aug 2012 #67
Missycim Aug 2012 #144
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #156
Missycim Aug 2012 #157
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #164
Atypical Liberal Aug 2012 #47
samsingh Aug 2012 #51
Atypical Liberal Aug 2012 #118
samsingh Aug 2012 #122
Atypical Liberal Aug 2012 #145
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #72
gejohnston Aug 2012 #77
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #78
aikoaiko Aug 2012 #82
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #89
Equate Aug 2012 #93
Bonhomme Richard Aug 2012 #108
aikoaiko Aug 2012 #95
Missycim Aug 2012 #143
Equate Aug 2012 #10
aikoaiko Aug 2012 #15
samsingh Aug 2012 #21
Equate Aug 2012 #34
DanTex Aug 2012 #45
Equate Aug 2012 #46
DanTex Aug 2012 #49
Equate Aug 2012 #61
bongbong Aug 2012 #65
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #66
bongbong Aug 2012 #168
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #170
bongbong Aug 2012 #172
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #173
bongbong Aug 2012 #174
Equate Aug 2012 #69
bongbong Aug 2012 #90
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #52
DanTex Aug 2012 #63
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #83
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #24
samsingh Aug 2012 #26
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #35
samsingh Aug 2012 #56
TPaine7 Aug 2012 #74
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #84
rDigital Aug 2012 #38
samsingh Aug 2012 #58
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #60
Equate Aug 2012 #39
samsingh Aug 2012 #59
Equate Aug 2012 #68
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #71
Equate Aug 2012 #73
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #76
russ1943 Aug 2012 #161
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #171
GreenStormCloud Aug 2012 #85
discntnt_irny_srcsm Aug 2012 #57
liberallibral Aug 2012 #80
bongbong Aug 2012 #91
samsingh Aug 2012 #119
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #86
samsingh Aug 2012 #112
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #138
ileus Aug 2012 #94
samsingh Aug 2012 #114
xxenderwigginxx Aug 2012 #141
samsingh Aug 2012 #148
Adrahil Aug 2012 #181
AnotherMcIntosh Aug 2012 #169
Please login to view edit histories.