Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

PavePusher

(15,374 posts)
107. "...if you carry a gun and use it to harm someone who is not carrying a gun, you are a criminal."
Mon Jun 18, 2012, 02:31 PM
Jun 2012

So criminals do not ever do criminal things without using a gun?

FBI stats indicate that only 8% of violent crime involves firearms use by a criminal.

Are you insisting that no-one needs or should use a gun for defense aginst a criminal who is not using one? Should they be forced to rely on basic muscle-power and whatever hand-tohand combat skills they may have aquired?

Raul Rodriguez, birthday party shooter, is a perfect example of a man who felt empowered pnwmom Jun 2012 #1
It is very rare for a CCW holder to make that mistake. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #3
All that means is that a lot of people are getting away with murder. pnwmom Jun 2012 #16
Stats here: GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #72
Please prove that a finding of "not guilty" means that the person is innocent, pnwmom Jun 2012 #76
If you claim the official stats are wrong, YOU have to prove it. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #77
Castle doctrine and SYG are two different things gejohnston Jun 2012 #9
They're writing about Texas so that's why they referred to the Castle doctrine. pnwmom Jun 2012 #19
Rodridguez didn't know what he was talking about either gejohnston Jun 2012 #21
There is a reason he was confused -- the Joe Horn decision. pnwmom Jun 2012 #25
That is a totally different Texas law gejohnston Jun 2012 #35
There isn't any law in Texas that, on the face of it, justifies the jury's decision. pnwmom Jun 2012 #64
I'll have to find the reference gejohnston Jun 2012 #127
Joe Horn was in his own yard when he shot those pieces of shi Tejas Jun 2012 #124
You're allowed to shoot burglars of your neighbor's property as long as you stand in your own yard? pnwmom Jun 2012 #131
No, and that is not what happened (but you knew that). Tejas Jun 2012 #132
They didn't burglarize his property; they burglarized the neighbors. pnwmom Jun 2012 #134
Not all homicides are murders. Some are justified, some are excusable. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #2
That doesn't help their agenda...you won't see that kind of truth revealed. ileus Jun 2012 #4
Yeah, but the increase was almost all due to non-justifiable homicide. DanTex Jun 2012 #6
7 to 9 percent increases: discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #5
The increase is likely due to criminals being killed, this is a good thing Taitertots Jun 2012 #7
Nope. The increase is almost all due to non-justified homicide. DanTex Jun 2012 #8
Nope. Even the author of the study disagrees with you Taitertots Jun 2012 #10
You're not quoting the authors of the study. You're quoting the blogger. DanTex Jun 2012 #12
The FBI classification system they are using classifies almost all self defense shootings as murder Taitertots Jun 2012 #13
Is that what the NRA press release is saying about this study? LOL. DanTex Jun 2012 #14
I see how this goes, you find out that self-defense isn't in the data set so... Taitertots Jun 2012 #31
Wrong again! I like that you are changing your story, though. DanTex Jun 2012 #32
As much as you want to whine, self-defense isn't in the data set. Taitertots Jun 2012 #38
Sorry, you're wrong. DanTex Jun 2012 #42
The author's have already admitted that the FBI counts self-defense as murder or manslaughter Taitertots Jun 2012 #44
LOL. OK, now you're just being thick. Are you even reading my posts? DanTex Jun 2012 #50
I've read your posts, they are the same misrepresentations of fact repeated over and over... Taitertots Jun 2012 #53
Actually, most of my posts have been excerpts from the actual study. DanTex Jun 2012 #56
But SYG is... discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #18
Actually, the study is about different kinds of laws that make it easier to use lethal force... DanTex Jun 2012 #20
they are describing SYG, not Castle Doctrine. gejohnston Jun 2012 #23
Thanks for the info :) discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #28
Your excerpt says that the principle of "retreat to the wall" has a long history ... spin Jun 2012 #74
SYG is called Castle Doctrine in Texas Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #22
two different legal concepts gejohnston Jun 2012 #26
They are two related concepts. DanTex Jun 2012 #29
Actually I did gejohnston Jun 2012 #34
What data problems? You are quibbling about terminology. DanTex Jun 2012 #36
for one thing gejohnston Jun 2012 #47
Yeah, umm, that's not a "data problem". DanTex Jun 2012 #51
they do? gejohnston Jun 2012 #52
LOL. "You ignored the other points". DanTex Jun 2012 #57
umm no, but gejohnston Jun 2012 #59
CD was extended to outside the home in Texas and PA among other states Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #46
I disagree gejohnston Jun 2012 #48
Well, as human beings, I think we have a duty to not kill others Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #62
I'm not disagreeing with you as far as stuff goes. gejohnston Jun 2012 #67
I don't think it is a question of being opposed to resisting violent crime. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #70
Yes it is gejohnston Jun 2012 #71
I'll wager that virtually all those philosophically opposed to resisting violent crime crayfish Jun 2012 #92
Who would be philosophically opposed to resisting violent crime? Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #98
Just take a look back at the Robert Eels thread gejohnston Jun 2012 #100
If that's your position, you should be advocating for disarming cops. Their reasons for carrying crayfish Jun 2012 #91
I have advocated for disarming cops many times Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #95
Fine. You can employ whatever tools you think will work for you for self defense. Do not dictate crayfish Jun 2012 #111
moat? boiling oil? discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #30
Castles? Moats? Boiling oil? It'll come. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #39
Saturday morning humor discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #45
From the standpoint of many right wingers, the homicide are simply ladjf Jun 2012 #11
When I read the responses to this study, I think of my father's generation. JDPriestly Jun 2012 #15
Well said! Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #24
One question gejohnston Jun 2012 #27
If some DUer has a gun and I don't, that is disparity of force. JDPriestly Jun 2012 #78
you missed the point. gejohnston Jun 2012 #81
In most shall-issue states an FBI background investigation is required of the applicant. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #88
People who need gun permits (for example judges) can get them in L.A. JDPriestly Jun 2012 #101
guilt by association? gejohnston Jun 2012 #102
You trust a government to determine "need"? GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #104
What makes judges "more equal" than other Citizens... PavePusher Jun 2012 #106
They sentence criminals and are vulnerable to revenge attacks. JDPriestly Jun 2012 #130
Does this pricipal apply also to the Thirteenth and Twenty-sixth Amendments? n/t PavePusher Jun 2012 #133
So much wrong with your statements.... PavePusher Jun 2012 #105
??? discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2012 #33
This post is full of win. n/t ellisonz Jun 2012 #99
So much fail in this post it's hard to choose where to start. Clames Jun 2012 #103
"...if you carry a gun and use it to harm someone who is not carrying a gun, you are a criminal." PavePusher Jun 2012 #107
"That is not our job as plain citizens." PavePusher Jun 2012 #108
SYG & CD are not designed to deter crime. And it follows logically that homicides increase. So what? OneTenthofOnePercent Jun 2012 #17
I think you might need a few more decimal points to identify with your SN Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #37
Post removed Post removed Jun 2012 #55
but there isn't gejohnston Jun 2012 #58
There isn't what? I'm missing your point. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #61
rise in homicide gejohnston Jun 2012 #68
How do you know? Have you read their report on the states they studied? Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #69
Yeah but gejohnston Jun 2012 #73
This isn't about SYG versus CD Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #75
they are too different things gejohnston Jun 2012 #79
I am aware of that. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #82
No, they keep DAs from sending innocent people to prison. gejohnston Jun 2012 #83
I doubt any jury would convict a true self defense killing. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #84
So, race bias in SYG, but you don't think there would be one gejohnston Jun 2012 #85
Looks to me like the judge ruled correctly under SYG Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #86
Juvie court gejohnston Jun 2012 #89
What former members might do is irrelevant. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #93
no. gejohnston Jun 2012 #96
Why do you like criminals so much? crayfish Jun 2012 #94
What makes you think I like criminals? Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #97
Because you want many citizens to be defenseless against violent criminals. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #109
Bullshit! I don't want anyone to be defenseless against anything or anyone. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #110
What is your own personal limit as to what tools can be morally employed? crayfish Jun 2012 #112
Bullshit yourself! You want to deny firearms to people. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #113
Show me one post where I say I want to deny firearms to people. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #114
You oppose private citizens legally carrying concealed. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #117
I oppose anyone carrying a gun unless they are under a credible threat Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #118
The real-world result of your policies would be armed criminals and helpless citizens. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #119
Don't believe everything you read in RW tabloids like the Daily Mail. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #120
you missed a couple gejohnston Jun 2012 #121
No, I didn't miss those. I remember them well. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #122
I drew my .45 against a burglar. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #135
Was there anything factually incorrect in the article? GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #129
Opposing is not denying. It's not my business if people want to act foolishly. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #123
My reason is: "Just in case." GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #128
Well Said... ileus Jun 2012 #41
Which part was well said? Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #63
I suspect that the authors are uncertain of the conclusions they are drawing ... spin Jun 2012 #40
If only we could quiz the "authors" on their opinion of the 2A...then we'd see their true agenda. ileus Jun 2012 #43
Good post. Really no surprise there. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #49
Unfortunately, studies and empirical evidence are not going to change the minds of the NRA crowd. DanTex Jun 2012 #54
Couldn't agree more. Empirical data tends to burst bubbles. Starboard Tack Jun 2012 #60
Then here is some empirical data to burst your bublble. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #116
How many decades have passed since 2004, exactly?! TPaine7 Jun 2012 #87
Did the Aggies just conflate Castle Doctrine for SYG? Tuesday Afternoon Jun 2012 #65
Yes they did gejohnston Jun 2012 #66
math profs are good at that. Tejas Jun 2012 #126
Who gave them the idea SYG and CD laws are supposed to deter crime? ID10Ts ileus Jun 2012 #80
They apparently don't even grasp the differences between CD and SYG. By the way, Zimmerman has not crayfish Jun 2012 #90
Using the FBI justifiable homicide numbers is a mistake. GreenStormCloud Jun 2012 #115
associate economics professors suck at math so they do social studies now? Tejas Jun 2012 #125
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Gun Control & RKBA»Texas A&M Study Says ...»Reply #107