Reply #100

In the discussion thread: Is support of 2A rights/RKBA a Progessive value? [View all]

Sun Apr 29, 2012, 07:10 PM

PavePusher (15,374 posts)

100. Please point out where I said "the good guys could always defeat the terrorists".

The point is to have a better chance than submission. Because in the day of highjacked planes used as artillery, submission is not a method of victory.

They could gang up on the air marshall to get his gun away from him and then the plane would be in their control.

You assume they are easily identifiable. And how would terrorists "gang up" on multiple individuals, carrying incognito, in random seats?

There is absolutely no evidence that allowing guns on planes would have prevented 9/11...

Except for the fact that unarmed civilians managed to stop the terrorists in one plane, albeit at the cost of the lives of everyone on board. Perhaps (no, not a certainty) they'd have been even more successful (i.e. lived through the event) if not forcibly disarmed in contravention of the Constitution.

...it is pure gun nut fantasy but we do know shoot outs mid air would not make for safer air travel.

And it is pure gun-restrictionist nut fantasy that being armed for defense on a plane is worse than 3000 people dead in the space of three hours, multiple destroyed and damaged buldings, the ensuing wars and additional undermining of the Constitution... all in the name of false "safety".

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104 replies	Author	Time	Post
Is support of 2A rights/RKBA a Progessive value? [View all]	shadowrider	Apr 2012	OP
The right to own guns is a progressive value. Recognizing that right as not absolute	morningfog	Apr 2012	#1
Thank you. Your input is appreciated.	shadowrider	Apr 2012	#5
I disagree with your claim of "must be limitations".	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#26
What is "prove" in this context and who determines it? n/t	ellisonz	Apr 2012	#66
what, because you say so?	iverglas	Apr 2012	#82
I agree, however the catch is what constitutes "logical restrictions."	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#61
"some people here think"	iverglas	Apr 2012	#83
I am not sure what 2A rights/RKBA is.	upaloopa	Apr 2012	#2
2A = Second Amendment RKBA = Right to Keep and Bear Arms	shadowrider	Apr 2012	#6
But gun violence is at historic lows and still declining	hack89	Apr 2012	#8
I haven't seen any real evidence to support that claim.	upaloopa	Apr 2012	#12
the FBI says so	gejohnston	Apr 2012	#13
Check out the FBI's stats which clearly show a steady decline	AH1Apache	Apr 2012	#14
Shall we start with the annual FBI crime report?	hack89	Apr 2012	#16
3 replys to me all with the same reference.	upaloopa	Apr 2012	#23
It is only becuase these stats have been posted here countless times.	hack89	Apr 2012	#24
No I am not saying that. I own a gun also.	upaloopa	Apr 2012	#25
sorry to burst your bubble, but	armueller2001	Apr 2012	#34
When you can show that our present gun laws pose a threat to society	hack89	Apr 2012	#35
This is the awesome-ist mistake I have EVER SEEN.	Callisto32	Apr 2012	#50
My slip is showing - good catch. nt	hack89	Apr 2012	#51
Was it.....wait for it...	Callisto32	Apr 2012	#54
"If true I would expect three people to sight three different set of statistics."	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#27
Seems a bit suspect.??!!	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Apr 2012	#44
"Seems a bit suspect."	rl6214	Apr 2012	#74
there you have it	iverglas	Apr 2012	#84
Anti gun zealot talking point=failure	rl6214	Apr 2012	#73
What gun control laws have been relaxed, aside from the worthless AWB	rl6214	Apr 2012	#72
I say YES	AH1Apache	Apr 2012	#3
Some progressives only support some rights	mvccd1000	Apr 2012	#4
You should be more worried...	ellisonz	Apr 2012	#67
"Progressive" is basically liberalism with an emphasis on economic progress.	rrneck	Apr 2012	#7
Yes.	needledriver	Apr 2012	#9
Thank you. Your input is greatly appreciated.	shadowrider	Apr 2012	#20
I think it is more accurate to say that they all ensure, reinforce and strengthen each other.	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#28
actually, honest to goodness progressives	iverglas	Apr 2012	#87
As far back as 1983 progressive criminologists James Wright and Peter Rossi	Simo 1939_1940	Apr 2012	#10
I think most progressives do support the second amendment	Bjorn Against	Apr 2012	#11
Keep in mind...	Clames	Apr 2012	#15
"...shall not be infringed." seems to limit the restrictions that can be applied. YMMV. n/t	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#29
Well it is not nearly that simple, what would be considered an infringment is unclear	Bjorn Against	Apr 2012	#40
nukes are not arms	gejohnston	Apr 2012	#41
Nukes are absolutely arms, have you ever heard of an arms race?	Bjorn Against	Apr 2012	#42
in military terms	gejohnston	Apr 2012	#43
Better term for nukes...	Clames	Apr 2012	#86
What do you think "bear" means?	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#45
This message was self-deleted by its author	Bjorn Against	Apr 2012	#47
Google "aircraft explosive decompression".	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#48
the Constituion is a set of negative rights	gejohnston	Apr 2012	#49
Really, not that much.	Callisto32	Apr 2012	#52
Ummm, no it would not bring a plane down.	rl6214	Apr 2012	#75
The Myth Busters...	Clames	Apr 2012	#88
So, did you do your research yet? n/t	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#95
I will acknowledge that after doing research this probably could not bring a plane down	Bjorn Against	Apr 2012	#96
A shoot-out is never a "good thing", except that it may be required to stop something worse.	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#97
Guns would be more likely to cause a plane to crash into a building than prevent it	Bjorn Against	Apr 2012	#99
Please point out where I said "the good guys could always defeat the terrorists".	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#100
You have absolutely no basis for these assumptions.	Clames	Apr 2012	#101
"If we could still do that, we might not have a major construction site in NYC today."	ellisonz	Apr 2012	#68
depends on the screening process	gejohnston	Apr 2012	#70
In principle, both self-defense rights and public safety are legitimate progressive values,	DanTex	Apr 2012	#17
The gun control movement also capitalized on fear and ignorance.	krispos42	Apr 2012	#18
"the pro-gun movement thrives on ignorance and fear,"	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#31
I would add	sarisataka	Apr 2012	#33
"commonly resorting to ad hominem attacks on genitalia."	ellisonz	Apr 2012	#69
You've just proven his point.	Marengo	Apr 2012	#94
Yes - all civil liberties are equally important. nt	hack89	Apr 2012	#19
As a progressive, I support the right of innocents to not ever have to face a nut with a gun	saras	Apr 2012	#21
"life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"	needledriver	Apr 2012	#22
I'm all for an unlimited First Amendment.	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#32
Reminds me of a KKK member I got into it with once -- he called himself "a civil rights activist."	Hoyt	Apr 2012	#30
What about war when a nation	armueller2001	Apr 2012	#37
I wish this site still had rules.	Union Scribe	Apr 2012	#39
hoyt seems to be made of Teflon(tm). I guess that means he's like Reagan?	PavePusher	Apr 2012	#46
That's interesting. Especially the one that got me for hurting a gun's feelings.	Hoyt	Apr 2012	#64
Hoyt, a scenario for your contemplation	oneshooter	Apr 2012	#71
I have said repeatedly, I don't have a real problem what you do with guns on your land.	Hoyt	Apr 2012	#77
What do you call "street and compound guns?"	oneshooter	Apr 2012	#79
Hoyt declines to answer the question.	oneshooter	Apr 2012	#102
Watching MASH as I am reading this thread.	rl6214	Apr 2012	#76
/Hawkeye hysterical laugh.	beevul	Apr 2012	#90
Who's that, 6pak?	rl6214	Apr 2012	#93
Who would be Marget Houlihan?	gejohnston	Apr 2012	#103
OOOH, Margeret would have to be Iverglass or	rl6214	Apr 2012	#104
People can say anything	Union Scribe	Apr 2012	#89
This post was hidden by jury decision.	Callisto32	Apr 2012	#53
Well said.	AH1Apache	Apr 2012	#55
since callistos post has been hidden	rl6214	Apr 2012	#78
I don't alert. But I do think you should not be around guns when you are excited.	Hoyt	Apr 2012	#56
Oh look everyone	AH1Apache	Apr 2012	#57
I'm still waiting also.	ileus	Apr 2012	#59
I assume that you're referring to the unfounded accusation that you don't	Simo 1939_1940	Apr 2012	#63
and I'm waiting for this reply.	ileus	Apr 2012	#80
Yes	sarisataka	Apr 2012	#36
Could there be a more progressive cause?	ileus	Apr 2012	#38
Absolutely, we should protect ALL of our civil rights	badtoworse	Apr 2012	#58
You are, of course, 100% correct.	AH1Apache	Apr 2012	#60
I think the concept of a government allowing an armed populace is very progressive.	OneTenthofOnePercent	Apr 2012	#62
Binary thinking...	ellisonz	Apr 2012	#65
or as I was about to say: false dichotomy	iverglas	Apr 2012	#81
It's a way for them to sound informned...	ellisonz	Apr 2012	#85
No. Nothing progressive at all. In fact it is regressive.	Starboard Tack	Apr 2012	#91
starting over with ALEC and	gejohnston	Apr 2012	#92
We started in the right place, already. :) n/t	discntnt_irny_srcsm	Apr 2012	#98

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