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Israel/Palestine
In reply to the discussion: Israel Hate is Anti-Semitism [View all]kayecy
(1,417 posts)294. Thank you for considering each of my points in detail, but........
Thank you for considering each of my points in detail. Unfortunately your explanation makes little attempt to justify your claim that there is a strong ethical argument for deciding on Palestine.
Here's the problem... no one really saw it that way at the time. The Middle East back then had been under the occupation of the Ottoman Empire for the past few hundred years. The concept of modern nations did not exist for them.
If you are talking pre WW1 you are correct, but WW1 saw a huge upsurge in nationalism and an international awareness of the rights of ex-colonial people.
In 1918, President Wilson declared that, along with Austria, Hungary and the Balkans, the old Turkish Empire peoples should govern themselves. In other words they should have a right to self-determination without outside interference. Even Article 22 LoN stated: Certain communities formerly belonging to the Turkish Empire have reached a stage of development where their existence as independent nations can be provisionally recognized........ Britain and France chose to ignore this of course.
Look at some of the evidence of Palestinan nationalist feeling:
During 1918 and 1919, the Jerusalem, Nablus and Haifa Muslim-Christian Associations presented protest notes to the British authorities. The principle subject of petition was their absolute opposition to Zionism. Among the arguments presented to the British was the historical continuity of Arab settlement in Palestine.... The Palestinian Arabs pertained to their perceived right to self-rule based on the statements of world leaders......
One Palestinian spokesman, presented data to Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill showing that the Palestinians deserved the status to which the LoN Article 22 bestowed.
The Palestinian Arabs demanded a national government at the Third Palestinian Arab Congress in December 1920
How can you possibly claim that the concept of modern nations did not exist for Palestinians? Quite clearly, by the early 1920s, the concept of the modern nation was a major debating point for the Palestinians.
No, their fear centered around being politically disenfranchised as Arabs, (not Palestinians), by the hordes of Jews arriving all the time.
I agree with you.........Whether they were afraid of being disenfranchised as Arabs or as Palestinians is immaterial.......What is the point you are trying to make?
Well, what is the ethical argument behind giving the land over to the random assortment of people who happened to be living there at the time of the Ottoman's defeat? What about that random moment makes it the "right" one to determine WHO should govern WHAT land?
But it wasnt a random moment....It was a moment when the world had been turned upside down by WW1 and peoples previously part of the Hungarian and Turkish empires were yearning for independence and seeking self-determination. Never before or since have so many people been released from their colonial shackles in such a short time.
Do you disagree with the principle of self-determination for ex-colonial peoples after WW1 or is it just that you think the indigenous people living in the area covered by the Palestine Mandate were somehow different from all the other peoples and did not deserve self-determination?
Why not consider what decisions would best benefit the world at large and best fulfill the ideals of the most indigenous people?
That proposal is rather idealistic but I have no objection to it......Shall we start with making a list of the most indigenous people?.......Do you consider all Jews to be indigenous to Palestine?...Including those with no ancestral ties to Palestine?....Including Jewish converts?
States have a ruling Arab majority that controls everything important. And the ethnic minority who were the original inhabitants end up politically and economically marginalized to varying degrees. So THIS is your idea of the most ethical solution?
Wait a minute, what are you referring to?.......When did Arab arrivals in Morocco take over control from the indigenous Berbers.......My history books say about the 1600s......Your example of ethics as applied to indigenous peoples is rather far back in time isnt it?........The end of WW1 forced people to think hard about the ethics of colonialism and self-determination and had President Wilson lived longer things might have been different.
Well, for one thing it (the USA) wasn't the historical homeland of the Jews. They had no desire to go there.
No desire to go to the US?.......How come that by 1920 there were already 3.5 million Jews in the US?.....Almost 25% of world Jewry were living in the US......Were they there against their will?....Less than 0.5% of world Jewry lived in Palestine.
There would be no difference between that empty land in Palestine and the empty land in Nevada. No matter how empty it might be, the established local population would still consider it "their" land. Except in Nevada's case, they would be right.
Nevadas first permanent white settlement was in 1850........How long have Arabs been resident in Palestine?.........In 1920, the total population of Nevada was just over a tenth of that of Palestine in an area twice as large......Now, can you explain again why ethically speaking, the US was right to promote Palestine as a homeland for the Jews as against Nevada?
There wasn't even a plan for a Palestinian state at the time immigration rights for Jews were being drafted. The Arab Palestinians didn't get it together and begin describing themselves as a distinctly independent nation until decades later.
So the fact that Zionists were pushing Britain to create a Jewish homeland in Palestine whilst Palestinians themselves hadnt got it together is ethically relevant to Britains decision?
Defend themselves? From what? How would the Jewish influx of people to Palestine negatively impact the indigenous inhabitants in any way,
Look back at what you stated earlier:"...their fear centered around being politically disenfranchised as Arabs, (not Palestinians), by the hordes of Jews arriving all the time".......Does that answer your above question?
The key issue we differ on is your belief that the whole of Palestine belonged solely to its inhabitants, the people living there at the fall of the Ottoman Empire.
That is exactly my belief.......You stated earlier: I'm not saying it belonged to the Zionists by any implied right...
If Palestine did not belong to the Zionists by right, what was the strong ethical argument Britain and the US had for issuing the Balfour Declaration?
I suggest the letter to Lord Curzon from Balfour in 1919 provides the answer:
For in Palestine we do not propose even to go through the form of consulting the wishes of the present inhabitants of the country the Four Great Powers are committed to Zionism. And Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad, is rooted in age-long traditions, in present needs, in future hopes, of far profounder import than the desires or prejudices of the 700,000 Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land '
An argument this may have been......A strong ethical argument it most certainly was not.
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Israel's gov't is just our badly behaved punk cousin who has to be bailed out again. To point that
leveymg
Nov 2012
#227
When you look at US history did you ever sop to ask where the Colonials
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#160
When the colonies during the American Revolution were fighting for their
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#213
Still, the past restrictions Egypt put in place on Gazans leaving and entering Gaza
Ken Burch
Nov 2012
#219
And I call Bullshit! Now tell me about the West Bank and what is going on there with
teddy51
Nov 2012
#36
You people are great at rerouting the subject! I asked about the West Bank, not Gaza. You fuckers
teddy51
Nov 2012
#47
No, the discussion is not about Gaza the discussion is about Palestine vs Israel and what land
teddy51
Nov 2012
#70
You're assuming Hamas can be mollified by negotiations. They're perfectly clear....
shira
Nov 2012
#125
Yes, i'm sure that the giant graphic was just too painful to see and it took forever to load.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#198
There's no room. It's about the size of DC, and has damn near twice as many people
leveymg
Nov 2012
#55
My larger point is valid. I said it's an overcrowded walled refugee camp that's not worth
leveymg
Nov 2012
#64
You can argue those points with the authors of this report: 2/3 of Gaza are refugees
leveymg
Nov 2012
#131
What is the difference between a city with 2/3 refugees and a refugee camp? What is the difference
leveymg
Nov 2012
#139
I believe it was Dov Weisglass who infamously called the "disengagement" plan ...
Fantastic Anarchist
Nov 2012
#165
Sorry, but I see some of you as "Poor me, please feel sorry for me) and forget what we do in
teddy51
Nov 2012
#9
Opposing the Gaza withdrawal, which you're doing due to Israel's "evil" intent.....
shira
Nov 2012
#171
Who cares what he said? Nobody that is apparently falling all over themselves
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#218
"What does an oppressed, imprisoned people (Hamas) do to get the rest of the world's attention"
shira
Nov 2012
#40
A question for you: What did those Turkish people onboard that boat do to warrant there deaths?
teddy51
Nov 2012
#42
And have you listened to Turkey's PM about this event? No, I doubt you have cause everything is
teddy51
Nov 2012
#52
"What did those Turkish people onboard that boat do to warrant there deaths?"
holdencaufield
Nov 2012
#122
Not my call, that belongs to the Israeli people. How about a leader that truly wants to make
teddy51
Nov 2012
#49
Like I said, I'm not an Israeli citizen and don't get to vote there or make that call.
teddy51
Nov 2012
#66
I would like to see the Labor party guy(sorry can't remember his name) Get back in power.
hrmjustin
Nov 2012
#50
Really Barak is Israel's current Minister of Defense and the one in charge of this show
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#96
The sad truth is this when it comes to Palestinians there is little light between
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#106
know what I luv weasel words and oh the British mandate ended over 65 years ago
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#282
No, I don't think the Israeli people do, but there leaders certainly have no problem with
teddy51
Nov 2012
#54
So tell me about the boat that you guys boarded and killed innocent people on then! Your not
teddy51
Nov 2012
#87
I was here, observing some propaganda troll bot endlessly recite stale talking points
Alamuti Lotus
Nov 2012
#19
You would not be correct in assuming anything; you're just not good at it.. *nt
Alamuti Lotus
Nov 2012
#27
That charge is pretty funny considering your mission here seems to be to demonize
shira
Nov 2012
#126
Hamas' sworn intent to kill the Jews is irrelevant to the "human rights community"
shira
Nov 2012
#166
I would very much like to hear your “strong ethical argument” favouring Palestine over the US......
kayecy
Nov 2012
#289
For the same reason that the US, Argentina or Australia would have rejected it........
kayecy
Nov 2012
#298
no because you've shown nothing but hearsay and opinion I originally asked for evidence charges from
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#143
No you did not quote B'tselem you claimed that and you were busted which is why no link
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#183
I have questioned MEMRI more than once and that very same video within the past 24hrs
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#82
no MEMRI's record of biased translation coupled with Israeles propaganda program to make
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#104
My question has everything to with "The People" versus "their Government" ...
1StrongBlackMan
Nov 2012
#140
After witnessing our invasion and decimation of Iraq, with israeli encouragement, why the hell
Purveyor
Nov 2012
#53
Israel had nothing to do with our invasion of Iraq. There were a lot of countries who supported
still_one
Nov 2012
#110
Israel To U.S. Don't Delay Iraq Attack, Sharon Government Urges Prompt Action Against Saddam - CBS
Purveyor
Nov 2012
#142
My point was the U.S. was doing regardless, and other western countries did the same bullshit. It
still_one
Nov 2012
#144
They did not do it because of their encouragement or any other countries encouragement. They did it
still_one
Nov 2012
#148
Bullshit. The argument might be made that the US did, but not Israel, but while you are at it why
still_one
Nov 2012
#112
Yes, because the mightiest state in the Middle East is a poor victim.
Fantastic Anarchist
Nov 2012
#151
So let's say a chunk of Mexico (or Canada) is given to terrorists who launch rockets to the USA
PuppyBismark
Nov 2012
#155
Not true. I am anti Zionist right wing crazy Israelis, I am not anti Israel or an anti-Semitic.
OregonBlue
Nov 2012
#181
That's right...this so-called "progressive" magazine says that anyone who is Israeli or Jewish
Ken Burch
Nov 2012
#201
If hostility against Jews and Jewish organization is anti-semitic, what do you call Jewish
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#209
You do realize not every organization that advocate for Palestinian rights in Palestine..
King_David
Nov 2012
#212
You have it wrong. In contrast to you, I have never claimed that any organization that advocates
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#215
It is disingenuous and used to "deflect" from the discrimination against Jews.
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#233
Are you going to argue that anti-Semitism is discrimination against Arabs?
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#241
Language is fluid, and definitions change with time, usage and cultural reference.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#243
Seemingly you still do. And if you don't want to read it then put me on ignore.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#249
As I said, you can always put me on ignore and dig your heels in to the end of time.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#255
And if you want to play word games, you will get called on it again and again.
Behind the Aegis
Nov 2012
#256
"a term coined by antisemites"? Actually, the German-Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#234
True about not all Palestinians being Muslims (and not all Israelis are Jews)..
LeftishBrit
Nov 2012
#236
I have no idea as to whether Marr popularized the term. I know that many now use the term to
AnotherMcIntosh
Nov 2012
#238
spreading that bigotry out among multiple terms that way it's harder to pin down
azurnoir
Nov 2012
#253
Well, you're free to go away then and dig your heels in someplace else.
R. Daneel Olivaw
Nov 2012
#270
Lovely straw man argument... I think the leaders screw up, so I must be a Nazi...
bobclark86
Nov 2012
#295