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Shaktimaan

(5,397 posts)
112. That was not what Ken gave as his argument.
Fri Jun 22, 2012, 10:15 AM
Jun 2012
In fact, Israel's position on LGBT rights is often held up as a jusfitication for Israeli denial of most human rights to Palestinians...the relatively good position of Israeli LGBT's, it is essentially argued, means that it doesn't matter what that country does to people in the West Bank.

To rephrase this... Denying the Palestinians most of their human rights is warranted by Israel's treatment of their LGBTs. It doesn't matter how badly the Palestinians are treated. Israel has every right to treat them however it wants, without any regard for their human rights, because Israel has given a different group far reaching rights.

The argument you reproduced here (incorrectly btw), essentially said that anyone who supports the creation of a Palestinian state (under Palestinian rule), without concerning themselves with the rights of the Palestinian LGBT community; someone who is apparently willing to trade away the rights of a minority group of Palestinian citizens in the service of Palestinian independence is revealing that they are someone who is less concerned with the issue of human rights than they are with the issue of Palestinian self-determination.

Horse trading of that sort can out a person who always insisted that their interest in the I/P conflict centered on human rights and equality as really having some other, unspoken reason for being into the subject. Or even of being less liberal than they had previously declared. Any "solution" that condemns an innocent minority group to renewed oppression and possibly even death is probably not going to be an acceptable one for many liberals.

So the argument goes - and by a process of deduction, true liberals support the occupation of Palestine by Israel.

No. The argument would be that true liberals would refuse to support the installation of any proposed Palestinian government that itself refused to grant its citizens basic human rights. The argument is NOT that true liberals must support the occupation of Palestine... but that true liberals would not accept the installation of an extremist Muslim theocracy that oppresses women, gays and lesbians and so on, to be an acceptable solution.

Its a cynical exercise, and one that can only be maintained by ignoring the voices of gays and lesbians in the West Bank, most of whom realise that the only way to realise political progress there is for Palestine to have independence.

Which itself is a somewhat cynical exercise as merely obtaining independence is worthless unless it is accompanied by the requisite democratic institutions such as free speech, equal rights and an independent judiciary. For example, in Iran the nationalists and Marxists joined with Islamic traditionalists to aid in the overthrow of the Shah and declare independence, only to then be executed by the tens of thousands immediately afterwards. According to your argument those Iranian Marxists probably knew that the only chance for their movement to grow in popularity hinged on gaining independence for Iran first. And there is certainly some truth to that idea. On the other hand, one gets the impression that they might have acted differently had they any idea what kinds of effects that revolution would have on Iran, or considered how it might lead to far greater oppression and violence than they ever knew under the Shah, or somehow imagined that it would impel Saddam to invade and slaughter nearly a million Iranians.

In short, both you and Ken are both wrong. No one here at DU (or anywhere probably), makes either of the ridiculous, straw man arguments you've shown me. Ken, your charge is one that has been asserted by anti-Zionist factions as a reaction to Israel's promotion of their extremely liberal LGBT policies as their existence disrupt their narrative of Israel being the antithesis of liberal ideals, having embraced theocracy, oppression, supremacy ideology and apartheid. Since it seems unlikely that Israel would be all of those things while ALSO being one of the most enlightened nations on the planet regarding LGBT it called into question their entire narrative's foundation. So this absurd "pinkwashing" conspiracy theory was made up to explain why their model is still reliable... ie: "Israel isn't REALLY liberal, they're just ACTING that way to trick you!"
Norway's Holocaust inverters [View all] King_David Jun 2012 OP
Norway legalises gay marriage shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #1
Am I missing something here? William769 Jun 2012 #2
I was wondering the same thing. nt King_David Jun 2012 #3
well is recognizing Gay Marriage a benchmark of respect for Human Rights? azurnoir Jun 2012 #4
Well it beats the hell out of being hanged or stoned to death. William769 Jun 2012 #5
well then you have the reason for comment #1 n/t azurnoir Jun 2012 #6
Actually no, comment 1 has absolutely nothing to do with the OP at all. King_David Jun 2012 #7
interesting azurnoir Jun 2012 #10
Apparently we can only post articles about gays in Israel... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #13
No... Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #61
Still not following. William769 Jun 2012 #8
what was deceiving about the comment it seemed pretty straight forward to me eta azurnoir Jun 2012 #9
What do you think of Norway, by the way? shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #14
Norway has it's good points and it's bad points, as do all Countries. William769 Jun 2012 #15
Well... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #23
What language are you reading that in? William769 Jun 2012 #25
Can I just say what an honour it is... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #43
Can someone filter out the saccharine in this Ruby the Liberal Jun 2012 #45
Well I have been here a long time also. William769 Jun 2012 #48
You sound like my kind of man, William shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #58
Whats his religion got to do with anything? nt King_David Jun 2012 #73
Sorry, not Catholic. William769 Jun 2012 #80
Some of my best friends are Protestants, William (nt) shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #82
Clearly the campaign to label Norway as an essentially neo-Nazi country Ken Burch Jun 2012 #51
Who has labeled Norway as an essentially neo-Nazi country? William769 Jun 2012 #60
Those with a gift for mind reading Dick Dastardly Jun 2012 #101
Norway refuses gay Iraqi asylum, says ‘go home, be discreet’ King_David Jun 2012 #78
Bad Norway, bad. Actually, this is a good exercise in delegitimization.... shira Jun 2012 #83
Thanks shira it shows how just because a country has liberal Gay Rights laws for its citizens azurnoir Jun 2012 #86
Norway is widely acknowledged for being liberal/progressive and #1 on the peace index... shira Jun 2012 #89
I think you've 'accidently' left out a word azurnoir Jun 2012 #93
Advertising Israel's gay rights record is not used at all for pink washing... shira Jun 2012 #108
In fact, Israel's position on LGBT rights Ken Burch Jun 2012 #50
BS Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #62
The argument is being made as we speak (in this very thread) shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #72
apparently Iraq too azurnoir Jun 2012 #88
Only in your mind oberliner Jun 2012 #90
actually yes it is being made look around n/t azurnoir Jun 2012 #98
I think you may be missing some sarcasm oberliner Jun 2012 #103
sarcasm in all caps? okay then azurnoir Jun 2012 #104
Not really meant to be a "save" oberliner Jun 2012 #105
IMO the argument was in earnest at least it seemed that way azurnoir Jun 2012 #106
That was not what Ken gave as his argument. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #112
+1. nt King_David Jun 2012 #113
So you would support the US remaining in Afghanistan... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #115
Relevance? Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #116
This message was self-deleted by its author shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #117
very well written pelsar Jun 2012 #127
Norway refuses gay Iraqi asylum, says ‘go home, be discreet’ King_David Jun 2012 #77
Interesting more from your article and a question azurnoir Jun 2012 #81
No country should be given a pass on fundamental humen rights King_David Jun 2012 #84
So I take you believe the US should keep its full military occupation of Iraq until it brings its azurnoir Jun 2012 #85
Of course King_David Jun 2012 #91
so no country that discriminates against minorities should be allowed to exist? azurnoir Jun 2012 #92
You do not think it is a fucking big big deal ? King_David Jun 2012 #94
you do realize you are talking about most if not the entire world? azurnoir Jun 2012 #95
NO COUNTRY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST GAYS King_David Jun 2012 #96
and maybe you are editing your statements to make them less extreme azurnoir Jun 2012 #97
I refuse to discuss this with you any further, King_David Jun 2012 #100
except show me where I've done any of those things azurnoir Jun 2012 #102
in addition what I meant by editing is that you started out with minorities and then azurnoir Jun 2012 #99
Well look what others say about your argument, King_David Jun 2012 #119
if you follow the comments which led to that post you'll find azurnoir Jun 2012 #122
Ha Ha ok King_David Jun 2012 #123
It's ok I do understand azurnoir Jun 2012 #124
Cool then no need for an 'Alert' King_David Jun 2012 #125
you were going to alert on my behalf? I am touched but no need n/t azurnoir Jun 2012 #126
fuck it, go ahead and alert on it shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #128
I suppose deporting one Arab is a tragedy... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #107
It's a misrepresent related to the oft cited Israeli support of gay rights. aranthus Jun 2012 #11
Or to put it another way... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #22
Except that 's a misrepresentation of the argument made by pro-Israelis. aranthus Jun 2012 #37
well this OP is based on a presumed liberal attacking Norway azurnoir Jun 2012 #38
Again, you're misrepresenting the context. aranthus Jun 2012 #39
and so simply make more accusations of the same type if you support this then you also support that azurnoir Jun 2012 #40
You are still not getting it. aranthus Jun 2012 #44
but I do get it azurnoir Jun 2012 #49
No Azurnoir, you really don't get it. WHERE will the refugees go if not Israel? shira Jun 2012 #55
claims about Abbas not allowing Palestinian refugees in Palestine are ridculous twaddle azurnoir Jun 2012 #66
Where have you ever read or heard that Abbas would grant citizenship to refugees... shira Jun 2012 #68
Are all Jews automatically citizens of Israel? azurnoir Jun 2012 #69
You took "automatically" out of context, even within the excerpt you cited... shira Jun 2012 #71
you danced around answering are Jews automatically citizens of Israel? azurnoir Jun 2012 #75
DO YOU? Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #64
UNRWA wishes to destroy Israel ? azurnoir Jun 2012 #67
No, probably not. Shaktimaan Jun 2012 #70
well thanks azurnoir Jun 2012 #87
Nobody on this forum "supports Iran"(or, as you ACTUALLY MEANT, supports the Iranian government). Ken Burch Jun 2012 #52
"Nobody supports Hamas"..... shira Jun 2012 #59
For those not in the know... shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #12
"Pinkwashing", which is BS by the way, isn't remotely as bad as Team Palestine's loathing... shira Jun 2012 #17
Expendable. Exactly. Ruby the Liberal Jun 2012 #18
so Ruby do you believe that the fact Gay Rights in the West Bank are not on par wiith Israel's azurnoir Jun 2012 #19
I think they are unrelated topics. Ruby the Liberal Jun 2012 #20
well I would agree however you also agreed with shira's comment azurnoir Jun 2012 #21
I am not following the question. Ruby the Liberal Jun 2012 #30
Perhaps the outrage azurnoir Jun 2012 #31
Gay rights is a losing argument for anti-Israel agitators for "human rights".... shira Jun 2012 #24
are Gay rights part of a broader package of Human Rights yes or no? azurnoir Jun 2012 #32
You prove the point perfectly. GLBT's will just have to suck it up longer... shira Jun 2012 #33
So I support Hamas because I support a Palestinian state azurnoir Jun 2012 #34
What do you call it when you've got a problem with legit criticism of Hamas? shira Jun 2012 #35
et another either/or azurnoir Jun 2012 #36
There's nothing anybody outside Palestine can do about Hamas Ken Burch Jun 2012 #54
So then there's nothing 'progressive' pro-Palestinian, anti-Israel advocates would do... shira Jun 2012 #56
Bullshit. Ken Burch Jun 2012 #63
So what will you and your fellow advocates for Palestinian human rights do for Palestinians.... shira Jun 2012 #65
On a side bar it may interest you to know that same sex acts were decriminalized Dick Dastardly Jun 2012 #42
Neither Palestinian women, Christians, moderate liberals or children Ken Burch Jun 2012 #53
So let's get this straight. You'll only oppose Israel, not Palestine WRT human rights violations... shira Jun 2012 #57
Sigh another broad and inaccurate statement King_David Jun 2012 #26
Spartacus is more a Sex guide to travel. King_David Jun 2012 #27
I do not think that is the argument. aranthus Jun 2012 #46
+1 King_David Jun 2012 #74
Any port in a storm in this group, William. Ruby the Liberal Jun 2012 #16
Norway refuses gay Iraqi asylum, says ‘go home, be discreet’ King_David Jun 2012 #76
Norway: Jewish student is branded with a red-hot coin in anti-Semitic attack King_David Jun 2012 #28
LA Times on Israel: Rising racism, homophobia and discrimination shaayecanaan Jun 2012 #41
Jan.23, 2011 King_David Jun 2012 #47
Norway and the Gays, King_David Jun 2012 #79
New Israel Norway ambassador appointed King_David Jun 2012 #29
Palestinians on hunger strike in Israel attract world’s attention; in Norway we just let them die shira Jun 2012 #109
seems you found a different source than your OP on this, why ever would you do that? azurnoir Jun 2012 #118
What do you think I'm up to? Be very specific. shira Jun 2012 #120
I think you found a rather biased and shrill piece that concentrates only on your claims azurnoir Jun 2012 #121
Really spurious points and accusations in the piece.. Alamuti Lotus Jun 2012 #110
So you wouldn't have a problem with 38% of any population equating Hamas & PLO actions to Nazis? n/t shira Jun 2012 #111
Why are you asking me about specifics on something I already generally dismissed as spurious? Alamuti Lotus Jun 2012 #114
I don't think its that Individualism Jun 2012 #129
Excuse mzmolly Jun 2012 #130
In the minds of most jew haters Individualism Jun 2012 #131
Ridiculous. Sounds like renewed Nazism. mzmolly Jun 2012 #132
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