Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Yo_Mama

(8,303 posts)
7. Well, yes, my perspective does
Thu Mar 8, 2012, 08:30 PM
Mar 2012

Industrial civilization is new, but interest is not.

Since our civilization (and any human civilization) is agrarian-based, we are no threat to all life on earth. Human civilizations crash when it gets cold and therefore dry. The next glaciation will take out human civilization, and then it will gradually start all over again as new arable land emerges down near what is now Indonesia.

That could be a thousand years away, or ten thousand years away. But long before then, if we degrade the general environment enough to crash crop yields human population will also crash. It's not surprising that the farming villages in China are staging revolts at all.

I would suggest that "interest" and lending, which seems to be ubiquitous in human cultures, derives from lending seed and asking for a percentage of the gain on harvest.

http://www.e-classics.com/solon.htm
Solon was a great reformer because although Greece did not have electronic money, it did have mortgages and it did produce a funding boom and a foreclosure round. He devalued money and freed most of the Athenians who had been enslaved, plus banned being taken into slavery on non-repayment of mortgages. Why? Because Athens had to defend itself, and for that they needed an army of free men.
http://spiritofjubilee.com/history/athenian-democracy-began-with-shaking-off-debt-burdens
Draco's laws could not last a century - they were destructive.

When you look at what Solon did in Greece and the financial system of ancient Israel, the parallels are obvious. However the ancient Jews gave their justification for debt laws as originating in Egypt (in the story of Joseph) and the famine, so this is very, very old.

The Japanese had a rice lending system - during the Shogun era, at least, every so often the debts would build up too much and the current power would cancel out all debts in order to maintain the allegiances of the fighting families.

What has really changed about our world? Nothing except that with the introduction of machines, slavery could be abolished.

How else would you get the funds to buy a house or car? dkf Mar 2012 #1
I agree. How do we keep from killing the planet in the process? GliderGuider Mar 2012 #3
Why do we need a business that needs a billion dollar expansion? mbperrin Mar 2012 #9
WE don't. THEY do. GliderGuider Mar 2012 #13
Yep. My eyes were opened when I worked in management for banks for 10 years from 1968-1978. mbperrin Mar 2012 #16
If you want to maintain large, technologically advanced countries like the US NickB79 Mar 2012 #17
Individuals do all the work in the world. mbperrin Mar 2012 #20
For most of history, people built their own houses and barns. mbperrin Mar 2012 #8
We aren't allowed to do our own electrical work nowadays much less build our own house. dkf Mar 2012 #11
People build houses, not space aliens. mbperrin Mar 2012 #14
Amish building practices aren't really comparable NickB79 Mar 2012 #18
Why would anyone ever use such crap as vinyl siding? Ugly, drafty, poison. mbperrin Mar 2012 #19
I have long thought this to be the case. RevStPatrick Mar 2012 #2
Those of us who had parents who survived the Depression Warpy Mar 2012 #6
I disagree with your thesis Yo_Mama Mar 2012 #4
How does extending your view back to the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries change the picture? GliderGuider Mar 2012 #5
Well, yes, my perspective does Yo_Mama Mar 2012 #7
Start considering "growth" meaning simply bigger, as a cancer. mbperrin Mar 2012 #10
Yes, exactly. Except that this time we're not hollowing out the empire, but the planet. GliderGuider Mar 2012 #12
Yes, technology has allowed the damage to be greatly multiplied. mbperrin Mar 2012 #15
Latest Discussions»Issue Forums»Economy»Xpost from E&E: To wh...»Reply #7