Reply #68

In the discussion thread: Have you ever wanted to Date someone [View all]

Mon Apr 30, 2012, 11:34 AM

68. A refutation of your refutation.

You may not like this fact, but asking someone out in a situation where they are inherently not your equal and may not be free to say "no" is coercive.

No.

If you're the customer, you're in a position of authority over the $8/hr. wage-slave who is making your coffee. You do understand that they're not free to reject your flirtations and advances?

They are. They are free to do as they please.

That there are consequences to their employment for rejecting your advances?

There aren't.

Unwanted advances from a person in authority? Creation of an uncomfortable work-environment? Consequences for rejection of advances? Yup! That's sexual harassment if you don't take the hint when she laughs, doesn't answer or declines...or if you retaliate.

I don't have any authority over a waitress. Her boss does; not me. And asking someone out is not sexual harassment.

I had an executive director who was a fan of cat-calling and grab-ass.

Now THAT'S sexual harassment.

Who talks like that? Apparently people with degrees in Political Theory that write both for academia and mainstream publications on sex and gender-politics using the terminology of the subject.

Yep, that's what I said: so wrapped up in your textbook theories that you're totally disconnected from how things go in reality.

Really my entire problem with you is that you don't seem to understand that the waitress isn't really your equal when she's at-work because her employ is based in your satisfaction. That makes it coercive. Just a little bit.

Again: no.

It's not that I don't "understand". I understand what you say perfectly. I just don't agree with it. I think it's victimization at its worst. Even when there isn't a problem, when there isn't coercion, you twist and turn everything upside down long enough to MAKE it look like a problem and to MAKE it look like coercion.

Maybe I'm a bit defensive because this fits in a pattern I've seen since DU3 started: how things that were always considered normal are now being twisted into something problematic. A man taking the initiative during sex if the woman is inexperienced is now "condoning sexual assault". Complimenting a woman on her beauty is now "objectifying and devaluing women". Calling a young woman of your own age a girl is now "degrading and belittling". And now, even asking a woman out has become "an act of coercion". Where does it end? Is there ANYTHING a man can still do without being labeled a shallow, creepy, evil creature?

Reply to this post

Back to OP Alert abuse Link to post in-thread

Always highlight: 10 newest replies | Replies posted after I mark a forum

Replies to this discussion thread

92 replies	Author	Time	Post
Have you ever wanted to Date someone [View all]	Giantsfootball10	Apr 2012	OP
Feel good now, feel bad later (if she'll have you)	NightWatcher	Apr 2012	#1
If you want to date her, go for it!	CaliforniaPeggy	Apr 2012	#2
If you don't ask, you	cloudbase	Apr 2012	#3
Go for it -	cliffordu	Apr 2012	#4
Stay away from my Mom, dude. Seriously.	Ikonoklast	Apr 2012	#5
She is too young for you.	kwassa	Apr 2012	#6
So what if the relationship eventually ends?	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#9
Well, there could be a broken heart involved.	blueamy66	Apr 2012	#62
If you have to ask,	Moondog	Apr 2012	#7
You're only saying that because society says that's what you're "supposed" to say.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#10
Old men are ugly too. Once their faces start looking like their nutsac?	alphafemale	Apr 2012	#16
True that.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#17
screw that	alphafemale	Apr 2012	#21
I would love to rec your post!!!!!	lunatica	Apr 2012	#44
that's a new one for me	blueamy66	Apr 2012	#63
I find your comment really stupid	lunatica	Apr 2012	#43
Women don't want to hear it, so we just pretend biology doesn't exist. Got it!	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#54
So do we though	treestar	Apr 2012	#90
that's just your opinion	nickinSTL	Apr 2012	#47
See, you're talking about something totally different than me.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#55
Gee, women really can't win, can we?	WildEyedLiberal	Apr 2012	#58
Thanks, I forgot to point that out.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#59
on re-reading that, you're right	nickinSTL	Apr 2012	#64
surely you jest	Tuesday Afternoon	Apr 2012	#24
There is no such thing as a too big age difference.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#8
Half your age plus seven.	bluedigger	Apr 2012	#11
According to whom?	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#18
I believe it's traditional Chinese wisdom.	bluedigger	Apr 2012	#23
Why should I have to explain or defend my interest in the topic to you?	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#28
You keep saying "she's HOT."	Lydia Leftcoast	Apr 2012	#12
You're of the age	HeiressofBickworth	Apr 2012	#13
Men DO think with their little heads.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#19
The same go for the women dating younger men.	HappyMe	Apr 2012	#27
Anecdotally speaking	OriginalGeek	Apr 2012	#67
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#70
The BS about biology	treestar	Apr 2012	#91
there's no rhyme or reason to attraction	lovemydog	Apr 2012	#14
Looks, age, etc. - no matter what, don't ask out someone where they work.	harmonicon	Apr 2012	#15
Ask her out for coffee.	HappyMe	Apr 2012	#20
As Groucho said...	Scuba	Apr 2012	#22
You sound creepy	nobodyspecial	Apr 2012	#25
You don't even know the guy, for God's sake!	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#29
Defend all you want, but a person who values and respects women	nobodyspecial	Apr 2012	#31
That was my first reaction as well.	noamnety	Apr 2012	#33
On the other hand...	pipi_k	Apr 2012	#34
I'm not above noticing a man's looks or physique	nobodyspecial	Apr 2012	#35
Oooh, so you are one of those holier-than-thou people who have to let others know they're unworthy?	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#38
Yes, that's exactly what I said.	nobodyspecial	Apr 2012	#41
So praising a woman for her good looks is	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#36
Hmm... You certainly have been awfully involved and defensive in this post	nobodyspecial	Apr 2012	#40
You're making a caricature out of something that isn't there.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#50
OK as long as you don't get mad if a woman wants to know how much money you make.	treestar	Apr 2012	#92
A few points:	Chan790	Apr 2012	#26
Why is it impolite how ask somebody out where they work?	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#30
Okay, I'll explain it.	Chan790	Apr 2012	#32
You lost me in the first line when you stepped out of reality.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#37
Don't be so defensive. I agree with Chan.	harmonicon	Apr 2012	#49
No, coercion is holding a gun to her head and saying: "you wanna go out with me?"	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#51
You're definitely missing the point by leaps and bounds.	harmonicon	Apr 2012	#53
Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#57
A point-by-point refutation of you.	Chan790	Apr 2012	#60
A refutation of your refutation.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#68
We're going to have to agree to disagree then.	Chan790	Apr 2012	#75
Some things don't need any explanation.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#76
Where I'm from...	Chan790	Apr 2012	#80
No, I've explained at great lenghts how your textbook theories don't apply in the real world.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#82
...	Chan790	Apr 2012	#83
This post was hidden by jury decision.	DutchLiberal	Apr 2012	#84
What part of this do you not get?	Chan790	Apr 2012	#88
Chan790 my friend, I admire you.	flvegan	Apr 2012	#85
"I dated...underwear models."	hay rick	Apr 2012	#52
What can I say? I'm epically awesome. n/t	Chan790	Apr 2012	#61
If anyone starts that thread,	redqueen	Apr 2012	#71
Is dating an underwear model a good thing?	hay rick	Apr 2012	#74
lol!	OriginalGeek	Apr 2012	#77
I have been considering the same thing...	dogknob	Apr 2012	#39
Yeah but when I do I usually get my face slapped....	whistler162	Apr 2012	#42
You should go for it, unless law forbids.	JVS	Apr 2012	#45
Personal experiences	siligut	Apr 2012	#46
When I was in my teens and twenties, both I and my friends had older men approach us	Lydia Leftcoast	Apr 2012	#48
I once dated a woman for about 6 months.	baldguy	Apr 2012	#56
If you can't get beyond the word "hot" as a descriptor I would advise you to move on.	ScreamingMeemie	Apr 2012	#65
If you can actually get her to go on a date with you - GO FOR IT!!!	cbdo2007	Apr 2012	#66
Is she legal?	4th law of robotics	Apr 2012	#69
My man is 14 years younger than I am.	redqueen	Apr 2012	#72
My husband is 13 years younger.	FedUpWithIt All	Apr 2012	#79
You answered your own question.	Iggo	Apr 2012	#73
Married a man 20 years older than me.	Neoma	Apr 2012	#78
Meanwhile Giantfootball has punted himself elsewhere	felix_numinous	Apr 2012	#81
his post sounded awfully familiar that was in lounge a couple months ago. hot, really hot girls	seabeyond	Apr 2012	#87
I've found people physically attractive...	Fearless	Apr 2012	#86
I've never let that discourage me...	Rochester	Apr 2012	#89

Edit History

Please login to view edit histories.