Response to TreasonousBastard (Reply #43)
Mon Sep 17, 2012, 04:22 AM
Major Nikon (24,971 posts)
44. This was your assertion, verbatim...
..., "reason" has given us Utilitarians, Nazis and Stalin.
So if my interference wasn't what you meant, then please do clarify it, because if it isn't I haven't a clue what you mean.
Reason and/or atheism has murdered no one. Not one person. Ever in recorded history.
If you think otherwise, please list a name or something of substance I can work with. Just one will do.
Meanwhile I can name millions murdered in the name of Christianity alone. I can also point to thousands of suicides where homophobia fueled by Christianity and other religions was a major factor. I can point to lives destroyed, kids abused, science scuttled in favor of hocus pocus nonsense, reproductive rights denied, rapes, slavery, misogyny, racism, genocide, delusional behavior, and on and on it goes. All of these things were either as a direct result of the application of religion based morality, or was justified by religion, or both.
I can't think of one bad thing caused by reason. Maybe you can. I'd be glad to hear it. The reason ethics based on reason is not inherently corruptible is because the ultimate arbitrator is always logic. That doesn't mean reason based systems of ethics are infallible as they are always subject to fallibility when administered by corrupt people.
I'm not really sure how a Jesuit would make me cry, unless I was a child they were trying to sodomize. Outside of that I don't really see that happening, but hey, I've been wrong before. And sure, they do seem to find some value in some forms of academic study when they aren't burning books, but I can also give you plenty of examples of theologians who were ardent Christians when they started their studies and are now fully dedicated atheists once they really found out the true origins and true meaning of Christianity. So I hope you do realize your challenge can work both ways, yes?
And I never claimed religion has no value. It manages to keep a few drunks, drug addicts, and criminals on the straight and narrow, although the efficacy is grossly overstated. It does manage to feed a few hungry people once the Bishop gets a new gold chalice and priests are sent on sabbaticals to countries with lax child molestation enforcement. It keeps old white people with weak minds from being afraid of the dark once they have sent their life savings to Kenneth Copeland so he can buy another jet. So yes, I do have to admit that there is some small tertiary value to society from religion. My argument is just that it isn't worth all the bad shit that comes along for the ride, and there is absolutely nothing religion can provide that I can't get elsewhere(other than the little wafer crackers they hand out at communion. I can't find those anywhere else). So little benefit with major social costs just doesn't seem like such a great deal to me. You can call that having a closed mind if it makes you sleep better at night.
The 10 commandments came from reason? Even if you believe that, the Hindus figured out it wasn't a good idea to kill or steal thousands of years before that and it's probably a safe bet that secular ethical thought processes came up with the idea well before that. It kinda goes along with moving out of caves and into cities which is also what eventually created most modern religions in the first place.
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Replies to this discussion thread
|Richard D||Sep 2012||OP|
|me b zola||Sep 2012||#2|
|Schema Thing||Sep 2012||#25|
|Lint Head||Sep 2012||#5|
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#9|
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#24|
|Schema Thing||Sep 2012||#27|
|Spitfire of ATJ||Sep 2012||#17|
|Richard D||Sep 2012||#28|
|Gabby Hayes||Sep 2012||#46|
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#30|
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#33|
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#42|
This was your assertion, verbatim...
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#44|
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#47|
|Major Nikon||Sep 2012||#49|
|Bette Noir||Sep 2012||#56|
|Douglas Carpenter||Sep 2012||#67|
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