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reorg

(3,317 posts)
81. He clearly references
Sun Apr 15, 2012, 04:03 PM
Apr 2012

the "alleged right to strike first".

Whereas India and China have pledged to not be the first to use nuclear weapons in any conflict,

Pakistan, Russia, the United Kingdom, the United States, and France say they will use nuclear weapons against either nuclear or non-nuclear states only in the case of invasion or other attack against their territory or against one of their allies.

(...) At a NATO summit in April 1999, Germany proposed that NATO adopt a no-first-use policy, but the proposal was rejected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use


The right to strike first is clearly on the table whenever a succession of events is presumed where a major (non-nuclear) attack against a NATO/US ally is likely.

Grass is clearly NOT referencing a "nuclear first strike by Israel", but the general situation where such first strikes are not categorically ruled out by the countries with the most powerful militaries on earth. Netanyaho has made believable threats to bomb facilities in Iran, not if and when Israel is attacked, but merely because of suspicions that nuclear weapons MIGHT be developed there at some point which in theory MIGHT be used against Israel. Do you know what he will do if he suspects a massive (conventional) counterattack to such a limited first strike? Do you know what Israel's allies will do?

Grass fears, since such scenarios have been "Practiced in war games, at the end of which we as survivors Are at best footnotes" that Netanyahu's threat could lead to a nuclear confrontation and wipe out the people of Iran, given that they are living "under the yoke of a loudmouth", someone who is not very likely to strike a conciliatory tone towards his Israeli counterparts, especially not if they are making direct threats. Instead of adding further fuel to the conflict e.g. by delivering more weapons, Grass suggests to "prompt those who initiated the recognizable danger To renounce violence and Likewise insist That an unhindered and permanent control Of the Israeli nuclear potential And the Iranian nuclear sites Be authorized through an international agency By the governments of both countries."

These are the literal words of the poem:

Es ist das behauptete Recht auf den Erstschlag,
der das von einem Maulhelden unterjochte
und zum organisierten Jubel gelenkte
iranische Volk auslöschen könnte,
weil in dessen Machtbereich der Bau
einer Atombombe vermutet wird.

...

den Verursacher der erkennbaren Gefahr
zum Verzicht auf Gewalt auffordern und
gleichfalls darauf bestehen,
daß eine unbehinderte und permanente Kontrolle
des israelischen atomaren Potentials
und der iranischen Atomanlagen
durch eine internationale Instanz
von den Regierungen beider Länder zugelassen wird.
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/gedicht-zum-konflikt-zwischen-israel-und-iran-was-gesagt-werden-muss-1.1325809
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/gunter-grasss-controversial-poem-about-israel-iran-and-war-translated/255549/
As Valerie Plame said, getting to global zero won't be easy. nt bananas Apr 2012 #1
German author? JerseyMac Apr 2012 #2
Life long Nazi. n/t Old Union Guy Apr 2012 #3
That's not true. tabasco Apr 2012 #6
yes Günter Glass did serve in an SS Panzer unit in 1944 when he was 17 didn't he? azurnoir Apr 2012 #8
Shame on you. JackRiddler Apr 2012 #10
So are all IDF members lifelong Irgun terrorists by your asinine and simple logic? Robeysays Apr 2012 #12
If someone was in Irgun and seems to advocate for Irgun positions decades later. Kurska Apr 2012 #25
Grass isn't advocating for a Nazi position. Ken Burch Apr 2012 #34
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #72
That's twice you've made that accusation about me Ken Burch Apr 2012 #78
Bullshit Ken Burch Apr 2012 #23
Thank you for the truth, Ken Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #24
Doesnt matter. In the end its their country and they can say who can enter it and who cant just like cstanleytech Apr 2012 #52
Ok. Ken Burch Apr 2012 #57
He was a Nazi. You can argue he isn't one anymore. Kurska Apr 2012 #58
The poem wasn't antisemitic Ken Burch Apr 2012 #65
I dont know if he is or if he isnt and frankly I dont care nor cstanleytech Apr 2012 #60
Did you realize your entire post was a run-on sentence? Ken Burch Apr 2012 #64
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #73
You just accused me of promoting something unspeakable, because I disagreed with you about a poem. Ken Burch Apr 2012 #77
Bullshit. Grass is a lifelong ANTI-Nazi Ken Burch Apr 2012 #79
Not true LeftishBrit Apr 2012 #80
Gunter the Nazi was Waffen SS. Ruby the Liberal Apr 2012 #7
wasn't it the Waffen SS Panzer unit and for how many years was that? n/t azurnoir Apr 2012 #9
Is this why so many good authors were repeatedly blocked from publication in the US? Trillo Apr 2012 #4
I guess Mordechai Vanunu was an anti-semite, too! provis99 Apr 2012 #5
Former Waffen SS member Guther Grass barred Riftaxe Apr 2012 #11
Then we should Bar all Israelis who severed in the IDF for there life long Irgun Affiliation. Robeysays Apr 2012 #13
Well first of Irgun isn't nearly the equivalent to the Waffen SS. Kurska Apr 2012 #26
they didn't bar him for being a Nazi. provis99 Apr 2012 #14
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #74
It's not just Israel's nuclear arsenal that needs to be destroyed, WHEN CRABS ROAR Apr 2012 #15
Might as well wish for a unicorn as thats as likely to happen imo. cstanleytech Apr 2012 #20
Author of "The Tin Drum". no_hypocrisy Apr 2012 #16
Wow. Godwin's Law much?? Malikshah Apr 2012 #17
thanks you got it exactly right azurnoir Apr 2012 #31
Read the poem. WHEN CRABS ROAR Apr 2012 #18
hey israel way to take the high ground while murdering people worldwide starfox172 Apr 2012 #19
It's frustrating to me that there seems to be no distinction in the minds of some XemaSab Apr 2012 #21
You're right - judging Jews by Israel is like judging Americans by George W. saras Apr 2012 #22
True primavera Apr 2012 #36
This guy was Waffen SS. Ideological apples rarely fall far from their ideological roots. Kurska Apr 2012 #27
so criticizing Israels nukes is firing a broadside at the Jewish people? azurnoir Apr 2012 #30
Calling the Jewish state the world's greatest threat to peace is. n/t Kurska Apr 2012 #37
The word you are ignoring is "drafted". PavePusher Apr 2012 #35
Part of a wartime building company. Voluntered to join the Kreigsmarine. Kurska Apr 2012 #38
Which had little to do with National Socialist sympathies, if any. PavePusher Apr 2012 #43
Back track much? Kurska Apr 2012 #44
I never said he didn't volunteer for the military. PavePusher Apr 2012 #49
Hitler youth, volunteered for service, holds anti-semitic beliefs decades later. Kurska Apr 2012 #54
I ask again for cites for your claims, please. PavePusher Apr 2012 #61
He was a Hitler youth member Kurska Apr 2012 #62
You know nothing about Günter Grass reorg Apr 2012 #63
Because you say so? n/t Kurska Apr 2012 #68
So you are claiming that anti-semitism is in the ire of the beholder? Tom Ripley Apr 2012 #66
No I'm saying it is harder to prove as objective fact than membership in an organization. Kurska Apr 2012 #67
Cites to an internet post, and an Isreali newspaper... PavePusher Apr 2012 #70
Some more actual history for you.... PavePusher Apr 2012 #50
"wartime building company"? Cite, please. n/t PavePusher Apr 2012 #51
Luftwaffenhelfer Kurska Apr 2012 #55
Too bad for Israel Arctic Dave Apr 2012 #28
LOL. Showing my ignorance, I thought BlueMTexpat Apr 2012 #29
Israel’s policy endangers world peace’ — Jakob Augstein and Gideon Levy have Gunter Grass’s back JohnyCanuck Apr 2012 #32
If you're threatened by a poem, you are clearly and unequivocally WRONG. End of story. saras Apr 2012 #33
Many people at many times have felt threatened by Nazi's. n/t Kurska Apr 2012 #39
Gunter Grass is not really any more of a Nazi than the pope is RZM Apr 2012 #40
but don't you see Bodhi BloodWave Apr 2012 #41
It is pretty odd RZM Apr 2012 #42
Except he didn't just critize Israel's nuclear weapons. Kurska Apr 2012 #45
Does that mean that DUers who say the same thing are disguised as liberals too? RZM Apr 2012 #46
If anyone is saying Israel wants to kill every Iranian and is the primary threat to world peace Kurska Apr 2012 #47
I've never heard anyone here argue the first one RZM Apr 2012 #48
Grass did not make any of these assertions reorg Apr 2012 #53
I actually read the poem. Kurska Apr 2012 #56
Your posts don't reflect that reorg Apr 2012 #59
Except he isn't talking about a war spiraling out of control. Kurska Apr 2012 #69
He clearly references reorg Apr 2012 #81
It's a lie to justify genocide. Old Union Guy Apr 2012 #75
He didn't say that at all. You didn't even read it. arikara Apr 2012 #76
Citation needed JVS Apr 2012 #82
Post removed Post removed Apr 2012 #71
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