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joshcryer

(62,269 posts)

114. Decree 217 is not just used to limit it to Havana. It's arbitrarily implemented.

Thu Jan 26, 2012, 10:14 AM

Jan 2012

Don't lecture me, please, walls of text do not change the fact that such laws are draconian at their roots. Decree 248 requires everyone to register in their new home if they reside their for more than 30 days. Anywhere, not "just in Havana." It also forces all citizens over 16 to have an ID and show it at any time when requested.

Ultimately Cuba is privatizing things and implementing their own type of perestroika. Of course, when EU or the west fires millions of workers, we call it austerity. When Cuba does it, we call it 'reforms.' Just shows the disconnect people have with regards to the future of Cuba and how the "revolution" most assuredly failed. And what really underscores it is the whole Emmanuel Goldstein of "imperialism" which must be announced every moment one dares criticize the failure of the Cuban system.

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148 replies

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Highlight:

Two Cuban women's players missing at tournament [View all] hack89 Jan 2012 OP

they've defected. they use atheletes to promote the glory of the state Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #1

Don't worry, under Romney's plan they will go back to Cuba voluntarily. tridim Jan 2012 #2

They probably just got lost looking for some good poutine. nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #3

"Good" is such a wonderfully flexible word! nt hack89 Jan 2012 #4

If they let their citizens work where ever they wished they would have no more workers. former9thward Jan 2012 #5

A major league clue... ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #6

Just because people christx30 Jan 2012 #7

Actually it's not a bad place TomClash Jan 2012 #10

no country is picture perfect in everyway n/t Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #12

I tried to leave the US, but was threatened with arrest when I started packing. nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #15

By an LEO? ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #17

It is. nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #18

Clearly a mistake TomClash Jan 2012 #20

I was there in November Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #26

Did you make any friends there? Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #28

In a week? Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #31

Sure. Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #38

I was in a group based in Havana, which cut down on the number of up close Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #40

They could at least log onto DU and share their experiences. Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #41

You're being snide, because surely you know Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #43

Cubans....joining DU????? rayofreason Jan 2012 #134

People also fled Cuba when Batista was running it dflprincess Jan 2012 #25

The CIA reported years ago that most Cubans would choose to stay in Cuba. Judi Lynn Jan 2012 #29

Where the CIA cooked up that number god knows. former9thward Jan 2012 #46

Funny the entire team didn't defect. thousands of Cubans come here every year under nanabugg Jan 2012 #88

Cuban athletes that come here are guarded. former9thward Jan 2012 #89

Then they must be doing something wrong, chrisa Jan 2012 #129

Sure, why not let them go and . . . TomClash Jan 2012 #8

Freedom to choose is a good thing. nt hack89 Jan 2012 #9

Cubans are free to choose a lot of things TomClash Jan 2012 #11

With the exception of choosing their president. nt hack89 Jan 2012 #13

Because the People in the US always choose their President TomClash Jan 2012 #19

At least we are subtle enough to rotate them more often then every 50 years. nt hack89 Jan 2012 #21

All Humming the same Hymn TomClash Jan 2012 #22

Where do Cubans go on holiday? nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #23

Only kings or dictators rule for 50 years. hack89 Jan 2012 #24

Yes and titular heads make all the difference TomClash Jan 2012 #36

You are trying a little too hard hack89 Jan 2012 #37

I'm not trying much at all TomClash Jan 2012 #39

Totalitarian Dictatorship = Bad Place PavePusher Jan 2012 #62

More like "knee jerk" TomClash Jan 2012 #63

Feel free to cite a dictatorship that enjoys the same or greater levels of freedom and liberty... PavePusher Jan 2012 #67

Strawman alert! Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #75

You are correct, my apology to all. PavePusher Jan 2012 #81

seems if they were allowed to play, they would send back some of their earnings Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #14

Isn't this Canada? nt Snake Alchemist Jan 2012 #16

Probbaly so homesick for that Cuban utopia, they rushed home. Dreamer Tatum Jan 2012 #27

It appears you don't know people come and go from Cuba continually. You should research sometime. Judi Lynn Jan 2012 #30

So they can just pack a boat, say goodbye, and leave? Dreamer Tatum Jan 2012 #32

No, but the U.S. and Cuba have worked out an agreement for orderly immigration, Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #35

Why would a socialist paradise need to restrict the number of people who can leave? Dreamer Tatum Jan 2012 #42

It's the U.S. limiting the number who can come IN, not Cuba restricting the number who can leave Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #44

How many people emigrate to Cuba annually? Dreamer Tatum Jan 2012 #45

You're arguing like a right-winger, setting up strawman arguments Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #64

If I was Haitian, I'd go anywhere but Haiti. Dreamer Tatum Jan 2012 #71

well, Haitians are free to do just that iverglas Jan 2012 #76

wrong, Cubans need a travel permit the "tarjeta blanca", not just for US Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #49

Americans used to be able to travel to Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean w/o a passport Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #77

"When Cubans have the same freedom of movement that we do" iverglas Jan 2012 #48

the norm for most countries is a 90 day tourist stamp for US citizens Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #50

not sure how this answered my post iverglas Jan 2012 #53

Cubans would go whereever they could I suppose Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #55

Has it changed? bitchkitty Jan 2012 #84

Since 1999, all the European Union countries except Britain and Ireland Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #130

Sounds awesome! bitchkitty Jan 2012 #138

Is the US preventing another country from accepting you? Dreamer Tatum Jan 2012 #58

um, is Cuba preventing any country from accepting Cubans? iverglas Jan 2012 #60

You missed the point utterly. Dreamer Tatum Jan 2012 #72

no, you are making a point that isn't iverglas Jan 2012 #74

I wonder, iverglass, how many of the people who slam Cuba, have actually been there Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #79

I wandered afoul on one occasion ;) iverglas Jan 2012 #83

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #87

jeeezus christ iverglas Jan 2012 #93

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #95

I'll reply to this one while I still can iverglas Jan 2012 #96

The US can deny you a passport - ie prevent you from leaving the country. Matariki Jan 2012 #101

So? What does that have to do with your sufrommich Jan 2012 #131

10% of Cuba's population has left the island. joshcryer Jan 2012 #33

I grew up in contact with Latvian emigres--they were AFRAID to go back to Latvia Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #34

"letting their citizens work where ever they wished" iverglas Jan 2012 #47

So Cuba should not get in the way of those who get foreign work visas hack89 Jan 2012 #51

so .............................. iverglas Jan 2012 #52

What's wrong with selling your talents for a better life? hack89 Jan 2012 #54

who said there was anything wrong with it? iverglas Jan 2012 #56

The only thing I need to know about Cuba is that it is a one party police state hack89 Jan 2012 #57

I'd say the question is actually ... iverglas Jan 2012 #59

Nothing justifies political repression hack89 Jan 2012 #61

Cuba is not a good place to be rich, but a friend of mine who has visited and even Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #65

Why can't they be a true social democracy like Sweden? Sweden is not massacring entire villages. hack89 Jan 2012 #66

Sweden and the other social democracies STARTED with a higher standard of living Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #68

So Cuba must always be a one party police state? Really? nt hack89 Jan 2012 #69

so Cubans aren't ready for a Swedish type social democracy then?? Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #70

When the majority of Cubans want a change, there will be a change Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #73

Before I went there dipsydoodle Jan 2012 #80

Do you know what people in our group noticed? Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #82

well, when and how will we know when the Cubans want change? Castro already annointed Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #90

Wouldn't regular free multi-party elections be the best way to gauge when they want a change? hack89 Jan 2012 #118

Why can't the US be a true social democracy like Sweden? iverglas Jan 2012 #78

I agree - both America and Cuba should be more like Sweden. hack89 Jan 2012 #85

so you're using the same tired old tactics here iverglas Jan 2012 #86

So if liberty must be sacrificed for security hack89 Jan 2012 #94

I didn't say that it precluded social democracy, only that Scandinavia had advantages in this Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #91

What precludes them from plain old democracy? nt hack89 Jan 2012 #92

here's the real question iverglas Jan 2012 #98

So they have a one party "democracy" with a single leader for 50 years? hack89 Jan 2012 #103

. iverglas Jan 2012 #106

Do you deny they are a one party state? hack89 Jan 2012 #116

It is a wonder to see DUers all bent out of shape Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #128

I condemn all police states, "allies" or not. They are anathema to fundamental human rights. hack89 Jan 2012 #137

Well, some counties might pass resolutions, Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #139

But as private citizens we can condemn police states such as Cuba, right? hack89 Jan 2012 #141

Why bother "condemning" it? Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #142

How often does the Episcopal Diocese of Minnesota visit political prisoners? hack89 Jan 2012 #143

How often do visitors to the U.S. visit political prisoners in the U.S. ? Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #146

I would think a church group would be actively supporting Christian values where ever they went hack89 Jan 2012 #147

So political repression is OK as long as it is "mild"? What do you think OWS thinks about that idea? hack89 Jan 2012 #144

Do the Cuban people think they are not developed enough for true democracy? hack89 Jan 2012 #105

It's not up to me Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #145

How do they articulate their choice to be free? Through free elections? Oh wait ... hack89 Jan 2012 #148

Why can't the USA be a democracy? Many reasons. roody Jan 2012 #100

Only kings and dictators rule for 50 years. hack89 Jan 2012 #104

only hacks behave like this iverglas Jan 2012 #109

So the Cuban ruling class is simply more honest? hack89 Jan 2012 #117

well, somebody is "more honest" iverglas Jan 2012 #120

So is the Cuban ruling class any different from ours? hack89 Jan 2012 #121

I wasn't talking about the Cuban anything iverglas Jan 2012 #122

I know - you always revert to personal attacks eventually. nt hack89 Jan 2012 #123

Cuban's aren't even free to go anywhere they wish *within Cuba*. joshcryer Jan 2012 #97

Please post any link you have to information on your claim Judi Lynn Jan 2012 #99

Decree 217? joshcryer Jan 2012 #102

HRW ? dipsydoodle Jan 2012 #107

one would say "unbelievable", but ... iverglas Jan 2012 #108

back to the OP, those two women apparently aren't impressed by Cuba's "progress" Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #111

your "understanding" ... iverglas Jan 2012 #112

first things first, so did the government assign people jobs or not??? Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #113

"and to reiterate" iverglas Jan 2012 #119

Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #124

yes, isn't capitalism wonderful? iverglas Jan 2012 #125

They aren't coming from Western Europe so much anymore Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #132

there is no particular need for Western europeans Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #133

I don't know where you're getting "resentful" Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #135

people go to live in developing countries all the time. many expats in latin america Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #136

Yes, but when I was considering expatriating during the Bush administration Lydia Leftcoast Jan 2012 #140

Decree 217 is not just used to limit it to Havana. It's arbitrarily implemented. joshcryer Jan 2012 #114

good post. one note, the ID card (cedula) is widespread throughout latin america Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #115

yes, isn't capitalism wonderful? iverglas Jan 2012 #126

Cuba has always been capitalist. joshcryer Jan 2012 #127

No Occupy Havana I guess n/t Bacchus4.0 Jan 2012 #110