Reply #144

In the discussion thread: Once again: The Social Security Trust Fund is neither a fiction nor bankrupt. That is a myth. [View all]

Response to Romulox (Reply #130)

Wed Apr 25, 2012, 02:53 PM

lumberjack_jeff (24,732 posts)

144. I agree with lifting the cap. I do not agree with means testing.

If you paid the premiums (SS taxes) you are entitled to the benefit. The fact that the benefit formula is biased towards those who paid less in taxes isn't the same thing as means testing.

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163 replies	Author	Time	Post
Once again: The Social Security Trust Fund is neither a fiction nor bankrupt. That is a myth. [View all]	TheWraith	Apr 2012	OP
Great. And if Obama decided he wanted to redeem all those investments tomorrow, how would he?	joeglow3	Apr 2012	#1
Your comment makes no sense.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#3
You know the point I am making and are intentionally ignoring it.	joeglow3	Apr 2012	#46
Apple, meet orange.	Scuba	Apr 2012	#79
Cop out	joeglow3	Apr 2012	#82
No, I'm saying that your point is not a point at all. It's nonsense.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#152
The Trustees don't control them	Yo_Mama	Apr 2012	#128
He doen't appear to be interested in his thread anymore.	ronnie624	Apr 2012	#132
I only wish these 'investments' were called debt on the opposite side of the ledger	lacrew	Apr 2012	#37
"who pays this off? We the people." Not exactly. The money was borrowed from workers,	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#39
So this will come from our non-existent income tax surplus?	joeglow3	Apr 2012	#47
Interesting how you ignore what I said and change your argument. First it was that "we the people"	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#50
I agree	liberalmike27	Apr 2012	#64
I just responded to	liberalmike27	Apr 2012	#52
The SS trust fund is not in "US treasury bonds". n/t	PoliticAverse	Apr 2012	#2
Correct - if "is not" means "is".	closeupready	Apr 2012	#4
Um, yeah, it is. It's required to be by law.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#5
Nope. The Social Security trust fund is not in "US Treasury Bonds"...	PoliticAverse	Apr 2012	#10
They're bonds... issued by the US treasury.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#11
The 'legal protecton' issue is a red-herring. Since the securities are an internel-debt obligation	PoliticAverse	Apr 2012	#13
Congress could of course abolish Social Security.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#19
Yep, the real problem is they don't want to pay the money back.	bemildred	Apr 2012	#6
Are you saying the government will have no financial difficulty redeeming the SS T Bonds?	Fumesucker	Apr 2012	#7
Assuming that we don't fuck up the debt limit, and/or crash the economy.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#15
We can just print it. nt	Snake Alchemist	Apr 2012	#26
Bingo...	sendero	Apr 2012	#72
At what point do you foresee the budget being in decent shape? n/t	Fumesucker	Apr 2012	#51
Exactly, the SS trust fund is secure, now on to the next issue...	hughee99	Apr 2012	#8
They still are pushing that meme on the MSM. I just saw one yesterday with the headline	Cleita	Apr 2012	#9
There's two problems with that headline.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#12
Also, according to Bernie Sanders SS will still be able to pay 80% of benefits even	Cleita	Apr 2012	#14
Something like that. I believe the usual estimated number is 75%.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#17
Let's just cut benefits by 25% NOW, then, so that seniors in 2033 can get what's been promised!	Romulox	Apr 2012	#89
By all means, continue acting silly and creating strawmen. nt	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#156
You forgot the third problem--the trust fund is SUPPOSED TO disappear	eridani	Apr 2012	#65
I heard that too and was surprised that it was put out there as fact.	The Wielding Truth	Apr 2012	#16
Every penny of the so-called "Trust Fund" has been spent. It's a fact that can't be ignored.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#18
I'm sorry, but you're completely wrong.	TheWraith	Apr 2012	#20
And your logic would land me, a CPA, in prison if I tried to pass that off as "accounting."	joeglow3	Apr 2012	#48
Hogwash. Corporations lend between divisions and assets all the time, showing debt on one side	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#69
Show me a company that pulls money out of a trust fund for retirees and spends the money.	joeglow3	Apr 2012	#70
uh, all corporate retirement funds?	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#71
You did not answer	joeglow3	Apr 2012	#84
Plenty of pension funds are bondholders for their own company	Recursion	Apr 2012	#111
BS. The money "borrowed" is in T-Bills.	Cleita	Apr 2012	#21
That's factually incorrect. They are "special issues", not T-bills. They are not tradeable. nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#41
They are very safe. The US government hasn't never, ever not paid up. Also, as another	Cleita	Apr 2012	#45
OK, but that doesn't contradict a thing I said. I didn't call for SS to be privatized, either. nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#49
Not really.	Kaleva	Apr 2012	#22
No, this is also incorrect. Every dollar spent from the Trust Fund offset other potential borrowing	Romulox	Apr 2012	#42
Never said it reduces the national debt.	Kaleva	Apr 2012	#53
Intragovernmental borrowing is ultimately a wash, except for interest payments (which are below	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#68
Agreed, but let's not lose sight of the underlying fact: the money has been SPENT. In Iraq.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#87
All of which are "investments"	Recursion	Apr 2012	#107
LOL at wars in Iraq, Afghanistan as "investments". Whats the ROI?	Romulox	Apr 2012	#129
Well, for instance, I was a Navy contractor for some of that time	Recursion	Apr 2012	#133
You have a real hard time with private vs. public debt/benefit. nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#161
Every penny of your so-called "bank accounts" has been spent.	MannyGoldstein	Apr 2012	#28
This isn't disagreeing with me...nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#40
Correct.	girl gone mad	Apr 2012	#55
Bank of America's obligations (SHOULD'NT) be on the shoulders on unborn taxpayers.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#88
But they absolutely are	Recursion	Apr 2012	#94
No. Private businesses are typically capitalized by investors, not taxpayers. Banks are special,	Romulox	Apr 2012	#95
I didn't mean literal taxpayers, I meant depositors	Recursion	Apr 2012	#98
Well, I did literally mean taxpayers, since that's what this discussion is about. nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#102
We have a sovereign currency.	girl gone mad	Apr 2012	#56
LOL. Then just give each of us a zillion-trillion-gazillion dollars of this "sovereign currency"	Romulox	Apr 2012	#85
Of course there would be other complications to drastically increasing the money supply.	girl gone mad	Apr 2012	#159
The same is true of 401(k) plans	Recursion	Apr 2012	#76
401ks are really a horrible example of long term fiscal dependability. Probably the worst you	Romulox	Apr 2012	#86
Any invested asset has been "spent". That's the point of investing it (nt)	Recursion	Apr 2012	#92
401ks are NOT guaranteed by future tax payers. They have little (or nothing) in common with SS. nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#97
SS payments aren't guaranteed by future tax payers, either	Recursion	Apr 2012	#99
Snark removed: The future stream of payments to SS beneficiaries will be from future taxpayers.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#100
Well, no, presumably we'll borrow to retire the intragovernmental holdings	Recursion	Apr 2012	#101
An economic model based on the miracle of fish and loaves, then...	Romulox	Apr 2012	#103
The same people we borrow from now: it's called "the bond market"	Recursion	Apr 2012	#104
Um, this thread is about the so-called "Social Security Trust Fund". That's created from payroll	Romulox	Apr 2012	#105
facepalm	Recursion	Apr 2012	#108
Facepalm backatcha. SS has a structural deficit such that it cannot pay out scheduled benefits.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#110
How do you see any new debt being added?	Recursion	Apr 2012	#113
That's right, your arithmetic is too simplistic. You're talking about new borrowing, and	Romulox	Apr 2012	#120
They talk as if we're not already in debt to the tune of trillions of dollars	ronnie624	Apr 2012	#124
In the same sense that every penny of the mortgage money my bank loaned me was spent.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#109
Except banks are private businesses who don't (normally) fund themselves via taxes.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#112
Different? Undoubtedly. Non sequitur? Absolutely.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#116
LOL at this: "Regardless of how the borrower will come up with the cash..." That's the rub, innit?	Romulox	Apr 2012	#131
You're essentially saying it's impossible to save money	Recursion	Apr 2012	#134
Spending money and saving money aren't the same thing. It's a silly argument. nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#135
if you save in a bank or investment fund you're lending your money to someone to spend.	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#136
"The money"? ALL money is debt. It's irrelevant what the government spent the loan proceeds on.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#145
I remember being surprised when I took a banking class...	Recursion	Apr 2012	#146
K&R for the truth /nt	Dragonfli	Apr 2012	#23
Hi, Wraith!	bvar22	Apr 2012	#24
An argument to cut SS usually comes in two parts.	pa28	Apr 2012	#25
Best coming to a logical conclusion argument that I have seen.	Cleita	Apr 2012	#31
Relax, this money can just be printed when it is needed to be paid out. nt	Snake Alchemist	Apr 2012	#27
Wow, got those talking points in twice in one thread	Kingofalldems	Apr 2012	#32
It's called reality. Ben will just fire up the presses. nt	Snake Alchemist	Apr 2012	#33
So your believe in a reality that Ben will be firing up the presses 21 years from now? n/t	Uncle Joe	Apr 2012	#35
LOL, hopefully not. Whoever is at the wheel at that point. nt	Snake Alchemist	Apr 2012	#36
I imagine many people subscribe to bumper stickers as their reality.	LanternWaste	Apr 2012	#91
So where do you think the money will come from? Be specific. nt	Snake Alchemist	Apr 2012	#93
OK, so you're saying Social Security is fine because we can always roll the printing presses	Nye Bevan	Apr 2012	#60
Kicked and recommended.	Uncle Joe	Apr 2012	#29
Rec. Right on	MannyGoldstein	Apr 2012	#30
can the trustee's sell the "US bonds" on the open market?	alc	Apr 2012	#34
They are included in government debt statistics. They are considered 'Intragovernmental Holdings'	PoliticAverse	Apr 2012	#38
Regardless of IOUs or T-bills...	EdinGA	Apr 2012	#43
People don't want to lift the income cap, because they don't want benefits means-tested.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#44
Bullshit. There is already "means testing" in the form of capped payouts	eridani	Apr 2012	#67
It's not my argument, so don't rail against me. Google previous DU discussions on the subject.	Romulox	Apr 2012	#90
Sorry--hard to keep the subthreads separate	eridani	Apr 2012	#153
Benefits are progressive.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#118
I agree with lifting the cap and means testing. Many do not. nt	Romulox	Apr 2012	#130
I agree with lifting the cap. I do not agree with means testing.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#144
+10000 n/t	eridani	Apr 2012	#154
If semantics get you there, I'm fine with that. Your suggestion would be right in line	Romulox	Apr 2012	#158
The Awful Truth About the Social Security Trust Fund	allenwsmithphd	Apr 2012	#54
"the government does not have the money to repay the money it has "borrowed" or "stolen.""	girl gone mad	Apr 2012	#57
Technically	liberalmike27	Apr 2012	#66
Are you seriously proposing the Federal government open a deposit account somewhere?	Recursion	Apr 2012	#106
I wrote myself an IOU for $2 million on a piece of paper, which I placed in a safe-deposit box.	Nye Bevan	Apr 2012	#58
Question:	girl gone mad	Apr 2012	#62
I understand your point. We can roll the printing presses, so SS will always be fine.	Nye Bevan	Apr 2012	#63
In my view, we shouldn't bother.	girl gone mad	Apr 2012	#73
One goes with the other it seems	The2ndWheel	Apr 2012	#81
I think we can meet our energy demands with proper investment.	girl gone mad	Apr 2012	#160
And since you have the ability to print your own money and issue your own debt...	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#121
Again, that's the "roll the printing presses" argument.	Nye Bevan	Apr 2012	#123
Why? Because to do so devalues the existing money.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#143
Debt is debt,	ronnie624	Apr 2012	#127
No it doesn't.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#142
We could just print the money tomorrow to pay off all US debt.	Nye Bevan	Apr 2012	#150
Except for the fact that future lenders would take that into account, yes.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#155
Thanks for the interesting article	ronnie624	Apr 2012	#163
And as soon as you become a sovereign nation, it will work for you, too. n/t	Egalitarian Thug	Apr 2012	#147
Because a sovereign nation can simply print the money it needs to pay benefits.	Nye Bevan	Apr 2012	#149
look at our newspaper this morning.	spanone	Apr 2012	#59
Thank you. It used to annoy the living shit out of me when I was down	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#61
The Looting of Social Security	allenwsmithphd	Apr 2012	#74
Thank you very much.	ronnie624	Apr 2012	#77
Well said. It also means...	Recursion	Apr 2012	#75
Hello! This, exactly. n/t	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#122
If most of the current and future taxpayer revenue	ronnie624	Apr 2012	#78
It's not a fiction, but there are no assets which the government can use to pay benefits.	Yo_Mama	Apr 2012	#80
The government can and will use all that money being hoarded by the wealthy right now to pay.	bemildred	Apr 2012	#83
Government only has one asset: it's full faith and credit.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#114
I dunno. Ours has some pretty cool buildings. And the Interstate Highway system	Recursion	Apr 2012	#115
Who's going to repo it? n/t	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#119
The trillions burned up in Iraq and Afghanistan haven't been "invested" in interest bearing accounts	Romulox	Apr 2012	#96
Yep.	ronnie624	Apr 2012	#117
The 1983 Social Security "Fix"	allenwsmithphd	Apr 2012	#125
reagan didn't call the g-span commission to "raise money," he called it because the SS TF was	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#137
I'm 45 years old. I don't expect to see a dime.	Throd	Apr 2012	#126
The Looting of Social Security: Pre-taxing the Baby Boomers	allenwsmithphd	Apr 2012	#138
The trust fund has still never had a year in deficit. I'm so tired of that lie	Recursion	Apr 2012	#139
Either the government will have to take money from the general budget..."	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#140
Err... the whole point of this was that it's easier to borrow	Recursion	Apr 2012	#148
The money has been squandered on things like the Internet and Pell Grants	Recursion	Apr 2012	#141
The So-called Trust Fund “Bonds”	allenwsmithphd	Apr 2012	#151
The first year that benefits are not paid is the first year that "full faith and credit" dies.	lumberjack_jeff	Apr 2012	#157
The Looting of Social Security: The Code of Silence	allenwsmithphd	Apr 2012	#162

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