Reply #40

In the discussion thread: Abraham Lincoln WTF? [View all]

Sun Apr 15, 2012, 09:46 PM

Proles (451 posts)

40. This isn't really a surprise to me. A couple years ago I read a quote by Lincoln stating that he

would rather have the blacks leave the US after being freed, saying that for them to stay would be selfish behavior.

The fact is, history is never a rosy, perfect story-like affair. It's messy and ambiguous to put it shortly.

Anyways, Lincoln presided over a very divided country, so he may have only be saying what he said to placate the south. Taking baby steps so to speak. He obviously seemed against slavery, so I still think he was a perfectly fine president, given the time he lived in.

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126 replies	Author	Time	Post
Abraham Lincoln WTF? [View all]	Tx4obama	Apr 2012	OP
From The Debates With Douglas, Ma'am	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#1
It's hardly a handy fact readily broadcast.	rug	Apr 2012	#4
Those Debates, Sir, Are A Major Part Of Lincoln's Political Life	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#7
The debates are well-known; the racist views less-known.	rug	Apr 2012	#14
He Was Still In Advance Of Judge Douglas On The Question, Sir	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#21
He was also more advanced than Jefferson Davis but that wasn't the topic.	rug	Apr 2012	#26
Since They Are Not Hidden, Sir, Then On Your Showing There Is Nothing To Discuss	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#31
I do not call Lincoln's racism "Nothing To Discuss".	rug	Apr 2012	#34
You Can Call It A Double-Burger With Cheese, Sir, For All The Difference It Would Make To Me	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#58
You called it nothing, not a double cheeseburger.	rug	Apr 2012	#63
And Both 'Nothing' And 'Double Cheeseburger', Sir, Plug The Same Hole In Sentence Structure	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#67
No it hasn't.	rug	Apr 2012	#74
Never Found Cheese-Burgers To My Taste, Sir	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#75
You crossed mine midway through your second post.	rug	Apr 2012	#82
You seem to have difficulty following a logical argument (including, apparently, your own)...	regnaD kciN	Apr 2012	#85
They thought women voting was as likely as pigs flying, it was "accepted" that women gave up all	MADem	Apr 2012	#69
Exactly. I've known this since my American History classes in high school, if not before...	regnaD kciN	Apr 2012	#84
Pick up a book now and then	sharp_stick	Apr 2012	#9
At what grade were you or your children first taught Lincoln's racist views?	rug	Apr 2012	#20
By the standards of that time, Lincoln was not much of a racist	treestar	Apr 2012	#44
By the standards of this time, his views were racist.	rug	Apr 2012	#52
Because his views pale in significance to his actions and achievements.	Codeine	Apr 2012	#70
You're engaging in the sin of 'presentism,' i.e., judging the past by the	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#98
It was so ingrained, it was not noticed, and something like the Lincoln quotes	treestar	Apr 2012	#125
Everything is known	treestar	Apr 2012	#123
Lincoln's beliefs regarding "negroes" is well-known among	rusty fender	Apr 2012	#113
I've never met an even vaguely educated person who was unaware of	Codeine	Apr 2012	#17
How many of the vaguely educated persons you met consider "the complexities of his personal views"	rug	Apr 2012	#22
All of them.	Codeine	Apr 2012	#30
The point is that his racist views are not widely known. Why?	rug	Apr 2012	#36
But. . . they ARE widely known!	Codeine	Apr 2012	#38
We're arguing anecdotes here. Data is required.	rug	Apr 2012	#55
I learned this in high school.	Codeine	Apr 2012	#65
perhaps his virtues are far more important than his vices	hfojvt	Apr 2012	#78
Well you don't seem to need much data to form an assumption	Rex	Apr 2012	#117
Yes. The point is that they ARE widely known...	regnaD kciN	Apr 2012	#89
Christ! I hope you never find out	pscot	Apr 2012	#39
His views on race have more impact, even today, than his mother's dog.	rug	Apr 2012	#56
His views on race are really insignificant.	Codeine	Apr 2012	#73
Lincoln's views on race, which are racist, are insignificant? Really insignificant?	rug	Apr 2012	#79
Damn right, they're insignificant!	regnaD kciN	Apr 2012	#91
To a great extent they are insignificant.	whopis01	Apr 2012	#126
I agree we don't need more historical revisionism,	ZombieHorde	Apr 2012	#120
This message was self-deleted by its author	closeupready	Apr 2012	#71
Moreover, it was absolutely necessary to make such remarks to be politically violable in that race.	pnorman	Apr 2012	#47
True Enough, Sir	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#59
Should come as a shock to many Republicans though...	WhoIsNumberNone	Apr 2012	#88
I don't know why this would be surprising.	Ruby the Liberal	Apr 2012	#2
he was a Republican	NoMoreWarNow	Apr 2012	#3
He was also a vampire hunter.	randome	Apr 2012	#6
And he was known to party-on with Bill & Ted.	Iggo	Apr 2012	#16
The man did get around, didn't he?	eShirl	Apr 2012	#110
Here's the letters	alfredo	Apr 2012	#29
Which is why you should pay attention to what they DO, no matter what they say.	aquart	Apr 2012	#5
Same (O.P.) can be said of MADISON, LBJ (see thread on MADISON/his slaves by xchrom)	UTUSN	Apr 2012	#57
Did you not go to school?	sharp_stick	Apr 2012	#8
Why are you making this personal? The subject line and article is from another website	Tx4obama	Apr 2012	#10
I went to school in the '70s	Art_from_Ark	Apr 2012	#86
yep	datasuspect	Apr 2012	#121
19th century man held 19th century racial attitudes shocker	Spider Jerusalem	Apr 2012	#11
Lincoln became Lincoln.	undeterred	Apr 2012	#12
Lincoln was preoccupied with preserving The Union.	no_hypocrisy	Apr 2012	#13
He was pandering to bigoted people in the Lower Midwest.	Odin2005	Apr 2012	#15
"Were"?	HughBeaumont	Apr 2012	#27
DOH, my bad!	Odin2005	Apr 2012	#33
Hah! -n/t	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#99
actually at that time he only needed those from Southern Illinois as he was running for that Senate	dsc	Apr 2012	#28
Then, yeah, but he had the same problem in 1860 running for president.	Odin2005	Apr 2012	#37
I remember learning about this rhetoric when I was in High School and it really floored me.	aikoaiko	Apr 2012	#18
Yet he prosecuted a war that was, ultimately, about freeing black people	MannyGoldstein	Apr 2012	#19
Manny, the war became ultimately about freeing slaves (whether black or	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#100
Much like Robert Byrd. People are complex. Keep reading. nt	Snake Alchemist	Apr 2012	#23
At one point Lincoln wanted to return Blacks to Africa	deutsey	Apr 2012	#24
And the Titanic actually was a ship	Lex	Apr 2012	#25
I want to explain why I rec'd this. It made for interesting replies people might want to read.	Gregorian	Apr 2012	#32
It's hard to belive that any one with a basic knowledge of Lincoln and his history	enough	Apr 2012	#35
I know, right? LOL	Lex	Apr 2012	#41
See comment #10 n/t	Tx4obama	Apr 2012	#72
This isn't really a surprise to me. A couple years ago I read a quote by Lincoln stating that he	Proles	Apr 2012	#40
Oh for gawd sake it was 1860	alphafemale	Apr 2012	#42
Required reading	RFKHumphreyObama	Apr 2012	#43
The story here is that a large number of people	cr8tvlde	Apr 2012	#45
If this was Lincoln's personal viewpoint, then why did the South fear him being elected?	Major Hogwash	Apr 2012	#46
Because, Major, the South Was Loaded With, And Led By, Raving Nutters....	The Magistrate	Apr 2012	#60
American history is really ugly; it's why most people prefer American "heritage"	Tom Ripley	Apr 2012	#48
History in general is really ugly; ours is not uniquely negative. nt	Codeine	Apr 2012	#66
Agreed(n/t)	Tom Ripley	Apr 2012	#83
Marge Simpson : "I never realized history was so filthy!"	bullwinkle428	Apr 2012	#87
Not news to me. I learned about it in the 50s	frogmarch	Apr 2012	#49
This does not surprise me. He fought the war to stop the south from leaving the union. And	jwirr	Apr 2012	#50
RE: Dead people.	jp11	Apr 2012	#51
Marx on Lincoln	Starry Messenger	Apr 2012	#53
I'm guessing that LGBT rights wouldn't draw much support in the 1850s either.	baldguy	Apr 2012	#54
...or the 1950s, for that matter.	regnaD kciN	Apr 2012	#92
Sure--he was dragged, kicking and screaming, to the place where he saw the point of emancipation.	MADem	Apr 2012	#61
Lincoln WAS NOT dragged, kicking and screaming, to emancipation. That is total and utter rubbish. He	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#103
Oh please. Put the huff-n-puff away. I am talking about his evolution over DECADES.	MADem	Apr 2012	#104
When someone uses the phrase 'kicking and screaming,' the implication is	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#106
Read past the subject line. I wasn't implying what you are suggesting at all.	MADem	Apr 2012	#108
And Jefferson had slaves and he SLEPT with them...I mean he really had SEX with them...and George	Rowdyboy	Apr 2012	#62
Lincoln also didn't free the slaves	Major Nikon	Apr 2012	#76
Very true.... I was unaware there was any controversy about that but thanks for the clarification..	Rowdyboy	Apr 2012	#90
Oh, please. That's engaging in pedantry and Jesuitical equivocation of the worst sort. The	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#105
As opposed to historical revisionism?	Major Nikon	Apr 2012	#107
Yipes. I guess it comes down to what the phrase 'freeing the slaves' actually means, hence	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#114
Sounds like we need some Drunk History in this thread...	SidDithers	Apr 2012	#64
Michael Cera's is really fantastic...	Rowdyboy	Apr 2012	#96
this is well known	JI7	Apr 2012	#68
Are we throwing Abe under the bus now too?	RetroLounge	Apr 2012	#77
And the self-righteous 'presentism' is pretty stifling too, now	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#119
Seems a lot of folk are feeling superior for having read A People's History of the United States	sadbear	Apr 2012	#80
Therefore, he was actually the bad guy, and the South should have won.	2ndAmForComputers	Apr 2012	#81
Oh! I finally understand your post.	MannyGoldstein	Apr 2012	#93
Has anyone on this thread even read the full post on the link in the OP?	Tx4obama	Apr 2012	#94
What was the point of your post? nt	MannyGoldstein	Apr 2012	#95
It's the WTF part that is throwing so many off	Major Nikon	Apr 2012	#97
Yep, well it's not my fault that folks aren't clicking on the OP link to see that's the title :) n/t	Tx4obama	Apr 2012	#101
Less interesting to me than why we don't talk about which of today's ruling-class families owe	HiPointDem	Apr 2012	#102
It took me years to accept the truth of Lincoln's racism.	BlueIris	Apr 2012	#109
Read "A People's History of the United States"	quispquake	Apr 2012	#111
And Jefferson owned / raped slaves & Lincoln got STDs from hookers.	ehrnst	Apr 2012	#112
I think a better statement on poster would be -	lynne	Apr 2012	#115
Emphatic K&R for the discussion! I had my eyes opened a couple years back	coalition_unwilling	Apr 2012	#116
I remember being taught this in highschool, in addition, his views did develop over the course of...	Humanist_Activist	Apr 2012	#118
It's how normal men are remembered as great men.	Ian_rd	Apr 2012	#122
Slavery does not equal racism	malthaussen	Apr 2012	#124

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