General Discussion

morningfog

(18,115 posts) Thu Jul 24, 2014, 10:41 PM Jul 2014

What body count is Israel looking for this go round? They are at 1000 and counting... [View all]

Last edited Sun Jul 27, 2014, 10:08 PM - Edit history (1)

You know Israel has a sweet spot for total number Palestinian deaths. There is a magic number of dead, for Israel, that conveys their toughness, their boldness, their "right to self defense" while not going too far in the eyes of the rest of the world. It's a venn diagram political calculation for Israel. Too many and they are undeniable monsters, approaching genocide. Too few and they are weak and ineffectual.

Regularly being (rightfully) accused of war crimes doesn't slow them down. It's all about that sweet war dead spot. What do you think is Israel's political war dead goal in the current operation?

Because there are a coupe things that are certain. First, a cease fire will come at some point. Second, Israel will not eradicate Hamas or its rockets or its tunnels. In other words, Israel's means will not achieve any real objective it may have. Except for looking tough and serious at home and abroad (by killing a significant number of Palestinians). Of course, they are just further radicalizing the Palestinians and legitimizing Hamas. Just look at Abbas, who has now adopted Hamas' position on lifting the blockade as condition of a cease-fire.

What do you think Israel's war dead number is? 1,000? They'll be there soon. 1,500? Maybe. More?

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What body count is Israel looking for this go round? They are at 1000 and counting... [View all] morningfog Jul 2014 OP

A tiny fraction of what Hamas dreams of one day inflicting on the Jews. Nt hack89 Jul 2014 #1

So, what's your number? morningfog Jul 2014 #2

The Holocaust started as a demented dream hack89 Jul 2014 #5

the holocaust dude? really? frylock Jul 2014 #11

Yet, compare how many each has killed. morningfog Jul 2014 #12

Hamas appears dug in for a long fight hack89 Jul 2014 #17

Thank you, as a pro-Israel poster for having the candor of putting a number, morningfog Jul 2014 #20

So why is Hamas shooting rockets hack89 Jul 2014 #23

You and Israel have yet to offer an objective that fits the means. morningfog Jul 2014 #33

So once Hamas gets what they want through violence hack89 Jul 2014 #41

Israel will do just that, eventually. morningfog Jul 2014 #42

And killing civilians by the hundreds *doesn't* send the message that violence is the answer? nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #77

The alternative is to simply sit there and take as many rockets as Hamas wants to shoot? hack89 Jul 2014 #84

Israel could negotiate in good faith with Abbas muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #116

So there are two separate Palestinian governments that hate each other hack89 Jul 2014 #118

Yes, it is Israel's job muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #124

So they make a deal with Abbas and Hamas rejects it hack89 Jul 2014 #125

The Palestinians would turn against them muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #126

So there is a bloody civil war in Gaza that Hamas brutally suppresses hack89 Jul 2014 #127

And Israel prefers it that way (the parties in power since 2001, anyway) muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #128

Only Hamas can control what Hamas does hack89 Jul 2014 #129

It's Israel that treats Palestinians like children muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #130

Nor has Hamas offered an objective that fits their means.... George II Jul 2014 #161

Israelis bomb schools, hospitals and refugee shelters. That is not even in dispute. morningfog Jul 2014 #181

True, that's not in dispute.... George II Jul 2014 #183

Who said he is brave? morningfog Jul 2014 #184

When was the last time the IDF planted a car bomb? George II Jul 2014 #185

They don't need to. They have the US bankrolling their "legitimate" bombs, which hit schools, morningfog Jul 2014 #188

Which they only use to respond to rocket attacks..... George II Jul 2014 #190

Israel is the only party responsible for killing the civilians it kills. Period. morningfog Jul 2014 #224

Hamas is the only party responsible for killing the civilians it kills, comma.... George II Jul 2014 #225

Likud. bravenak Jul 2014 #226

For the same reason that kids kick the back of the driver's seat when eridani Jul 2014 #90

So one solution is for Israel to withdraw hack89 Jul 2014 #92

Since 2000 rockets have one casualty, yes, they should just take the rockets eridani Jul 2014 #95

The rockets were a response to Hamas' increased isolation hack89 Jul 2014 #98

Israel should just stop it's campaign of ethnic cleansing and land theft eridani Jul 2014 #99

Maybe the Israelis should give back Gaza as a good will measure to build trust ..oh wait. hack89 Jul 2014 #101

The Prime Minister who disengaged from Gaza is dead, his chief rival is now Prime Minister Hippo_Tron Jul 2014 #222

This inversion of reality no longer works malaise Jul 2014 #24

Are you okay with that? Did the children of Palestine have anything to do with sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #26

2000 rockets and only one casualty? Gimme a break! n/t eridani Jul 2014 #80

it seems to me Israel's over all strategy is to dominate/subjugate/humiliate or 2banon Jul 2014 #64

The Palestinian birth rate is higher than the number they kill every few years. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #107

excellent point. I think you're analysis is more accurate.. 2banon Jul 2014 #132

Some figures: muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #121

Thank you. 2banon Jul 2014 #133

Bibi enid602 Jul 2014 #155

but it's easy to dismiss Hamas, and the feeling of moral superiority is addictive and tempting Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #28

check the body count and get back frylock Jul 2014 #62

I don't need to. Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #69

happy to help frylock Jul 2014 #131

Whereas the Likud charter in the 70's is full of love and peace? BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #159

Hamas isn't the Nazi Party atreides1 Jul 2014 #201

The blockade is responsible for that hack89 Jul 2014 #204

No doubt... kentuck Jul 2014 #3

The Israelis have given Palestinians a lot of reasons to want to repay them with interest. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #4

There is nothing Israel can do to placate the radicals hack89 Jul 2014 #7

Baloney. Israel does everything is can to make MORE radicals. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #9

This is the thing we all need to remember, from the start of the whole thing, so many years ago... Bettie Jul 2014 #56

And they will never achieve that goal. morningfog Jul 2014 #16

Ensure Hamas never gets strong enough to threaten Israel's survival hack89 Jul 2014 #18

That is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. morningfog Jul 2014 #22

Hamas will never embrace peace hack89 Jul 2014 #29

Israel will not ever achieve that and they (and you) know it. morningfog Jul 2014 #37

But Israel can never give Hamas what they want hack89 Jul 2014 #50

You act like all Palestinians are Hamas. morningfog Jul 2014 #63

Hamas is in control hack89 Jul 2014 #81

Perhaps Israel should stop targeting children, schools, hospitals and shelters. morningfog Jul 2014 #83

"They are religious fundamentalists." So are Israel's leaders, by and large. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #78

"Keep knocking them down until they get the message that violence will not work." Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #27

Hamas want the eradication of Israel hack89 Jul 2014 #30

And I want to date Robert Redford eridani Jul 2014 #94

But you haven't been stalking Robert Redford for decades hack89 Jul 2014 #96

Well Said. 2banon Jul 2014 #68

+1000 woo me with science Jul 2014 #186

The most powerful military in the Middle East and the only one with nuclear weapons. Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #61

your logic here is so deeply flawed, that it's actually funny, if it weren't so tragic. 2banon Jul 2014 #67

You've lost all touch with reality cpwm17 Jul 2014 #19

That is rich coming from you hack89 Jul 2014 #21

One is saying it while the other is doing it malaise Jul 2014 #25

That is what happens in wars hack89 Jul 2014 #34

I don't doubt that Hamas holds that position. morningfog Jul 2014 #40

Israel can never give Hamas what they desire hack89 Jul 2014 #44

Yet you don't seem to care how many Palestinian lives are "sacrificed." nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #79

Over the last almost seventy years Israel has given them every reason to state that as a goal cpwm17 Jul 2014 #51

^^^ HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #54

Nice rant. Well done hack89 Jul 2014 #86

Israel and you know that is an empty threat... Spazito Jul 2014 #53

They're not lying. It's their 840high Jul 2014 #59

That's nonsense and more and more that is how the world is seeing these talking points. sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #31

The world routinely ignores greater slaughters hack89 Jul 2014 #36

You need to pay more attention to what the world reaction to this is. sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #45

It is OWS all over again hack89 Jul 2014 #47

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #58

OWS is a spent force in America hack89 Jul 2014 #85

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #134

An invisible force with invisible results. hack89 Jul 2014 #135

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #136

But trendy ineffective social movements are relevant hack89 Jul 2014 #138

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #140

You too. nt hack89 Jul 2014 #143

To answer your question Sabrina Caretha Jul 2014 #114

The hatred and loathing of Israel must be pretty strong to seemingly Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #38

Don't waste your time trying that 'hatred for Israel' routine. It is shock and horror at the Far sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #46

Hamas is far right too, very, very far right are they not? Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #48

Our tax dollars are not funding Hamas, Hamas has zero influence over this government sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #55

I dream of no longer seeing these posts on DU Capt. Obvious Jul 2014 #87

That's roughly equivalent to me dreaming about dating Robert Redford eridani Jul 2014 #91

Either Hamas believes their charter or they don't hack89 Jul 2014 #93

If all those powerful countries want to give them advanced weapons, why haven't they done so? eridani Jul 2014 #97

Because of the blockade hack89 Jul 2014 #100

Still, some should have gotten through, right? eridani Jul 2014 #103

"Hamas Firing China-Designed, Syria-Made M-302 Rockets" hack89 Jul 2014 #105

"Dominated by crode homemade devices" Read your own reference. eridani Jul 2014 #108

Because the blockade is effective hack89 Jul 2014 #109

If it did that and ended the land and resource theft as well. Hamas would no longer have support eridani Jul 2014 #111

What does popular support have to do with it? hack89 Jul 2014 #113

Interesting. You think Arabs are incapable of self-governance? morningfog Jul 2014 #137

Point out to me a model Arab democracy hack89 Jul 2014 #139

In other words, popular support is critical to equation. morningfog Jul 2014 #141

No. Corralling the crazies so that popular support of moderate views is possible is what is needed hack89 Jul 2014 #142

In other words, the Palestinian civilians that have been killed by Israel are innocent morningfog Jul 2014 #144

Yes. They are caught in the cross fire hack89 Jul 2014 #145

Then Israel commits war crimes by knowingly and intentionally killing them. morningfog Jul 2014 #146

It is not that straight forward hack89 Jul 2014 #147

Israel did not create Hamas hack89 Jul 2014 #123

Care to look up the Likud charter? BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #160

So supporting Israel = right winger? hack89 Jul 2014 #162

Unambiguously endorsing Likud positions makes you a Likud supporter BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #163

What does your support of Hamas make you? nt hack89 Jul 2014 #164

Sadly BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #165

Hamas needs to stop shooting rockets hack89 Jul 2014 #166

I bid you BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #167

The order of events goes back to 2007 hack89 Jul 2014 #168

I said in this situation BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #169

They are in an impossible situation hack89 Jul 2014 #170

So BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #171

Wars are ugly hack89 Jul 2014 #172

Ok? BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #173

They are the aggressors in this situation hack89 Jul 2014 #174

I think my point BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #175

Those right wingers gave Gaza to the Palestinians hack89 Jul 2014 #177

Kind of missing the larger picture here BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #179

The settlements are illegal hack89 Jul 2014 #180

Rocket attacks BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #189

There were rocket attacks every month for 18 months - is that clear to you? hack89 Jul 2014 #191

read the article BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #192

Bull shit hack89 Jul 2014 #193

They aren't an organized national army BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #194

They are the elected government of Gaza hack89 Jul 2014 #195

They did BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #196

Yes - that is what responsible governments do hack89 Jul 2014 #197

By this logic BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #198

They can arrest the shooters after the fact hack89 Jul 2014 #199

That would risk a further fragmentation BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #200

So the IDF doesn't have to reduce their strikes to zero? hack89 Jul 2014 #202

Huh? BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #203

So Hamas is not a true government? Is that what I am hearing? hack89 Jul 2014 #205

I'm saying governments often have a difficult time rounding up factions BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #206

But the rockets have to stop, correct? hack89 Jul 2014 #207

Would this also apply to Mexico? BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #208

Yes. Nt hack89 Jul 2014 #210

Lol BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #213

No reason to invade - not until they start shooting rockets at US cites hack89 Jul 2014 #215

?? BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #216

Crime is not an act of war hack89 Jul 2014 #217

Yep BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #218

There are DEA agents in Mexico hack89 Jul 2014 #219

They can't BlindTiresias Jul 2014 #221

Then Hamas better get their shit together hack89 Jul 2014 #223

What about the tunnels into Israel? hack89 Jul 2014 #220

You must be kidding? Alittleliberal Jul 2014 #227

Not the blockade hack89 Jul 2014 #228

Sucks that Israel created Hamas Reter Jul 2014 #119

Sucks that the Palestinians choose them to be their leaders. hack89 Jul 2014 #120

That is not really true hack89 Jul 2014 #122

This isn't about eradicating Hamas. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #6

Hamas is to the Israel hardliners as Al Qaeda is to the American Military-Industrial Complex. Maedhros Jul 2014 #72

This ^^^^^^^ treestar Jul 2014 #209

Hamas made Israel do this? RobertEarl Jul 2014 #8

Shhhh! You are not supposed to know this! BillZBubb Jul 2014 #13

They blame the victims RobertEarl Jul 2014 #32

lol...nice U4ikLefty Jul 2014 #74

What is the source of that report? George II Jul 2014 #158

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #10

Absolutely. THey have a number of dead in mind. They'll only stop when they think morningfog Jul 2014 #14

Unfortunately, given the subservience of the US to Israeli policy, BillZBubb Jul 2014 #15

If they don't already have the American drones... kentuck Jul 2014 #35

Exactly, mostly I blame the US for this. Without the US support for just about sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #39

Agreed. It makes no sense. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #43

AIPAC is just another lobbying group. I agree our politicians are in fear of opposing sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #49

They have access to our communications lofty1 Jul 2014 #156

That would seem to be a security breach, wouldn't it? Why not fix it? sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #157

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #52

They most likely want to please the majority of voters. EX500rider Jul 2014 #148

several reasons. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #152

A DU member once gave an accounting of how much aid we gave to UAE states and to truedelphi Jul 2014 #178

It's despicable, billions spent on killing people overseas, and they fight like crazy to deny sabrina 1 Jul 2014 #182

^^^^^^^^^ n/t truedelphi Jul 2014 #229

Israel wants to pound Hamas into submission. oldandhappy Jul 2014 #57

Netanyahu doesn't realize or doesn't care about the damage he is doing to Israel's standing in thr hrmjustin Jul 2014 #60

i agree, Netanyahu needs to go , he is like dragging down the country like Bush did here JI7 Jul 2014 #65

^^THIS^^ Major Hogwash Jul 2014 #73

There are about 6,000,000 Jews in Israel/Palestine, and about 6,000,000 Arabs in Israel/Palestine DemocraticWing Jul 2014 #66

hmm, that's an interesting point. 2banon Jul 2014 #70

...is a shit question much like Bonobo Jul 2014 #71

It is a legitimate question. Board_Commentary Jul 2014 #149

I will tell you why it is shit instead. Bonobo Jul 2014 #150

I get what you are saying now. Board_Commentary Jul 2014 #151

No, I think there is a number of dead that beyond which it is no longer politically morningfog Jul 2014 #154

I have heard that they are going for 1500 before they stop 4now Jul 2014 #75

They could try blowing up planes, trains, and automobiles, like the Palestinians have done. WinkyDink Jul 2014 #89

I also wonder how many civilian deaths the U.S. will allow to pile up Lodestar Jul 2014 #76

Yes, and only a minority of DU members support that form of murder by the US cpwm17 Jul 2014 #212

well...last onslaught the death toll was 1400, and this one is said to be more widespread... nt ellenrr Jul 2014 #82

Your first paragraph is absurd. But you at least acknowledge that Hamas is not legitimate. WinkyDink Jul 2014 #88

Unfortunately Israel legitimizes Hamas. morningfog Jul 2014 #102

'Israel' is sloppy wording. There are quite a few pro-peace Israelis Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #104

Fair point. I take issue when all Palistinians are lumped morningfog Jul 2014 #106

Israel solved the suicide bombings of their pizza shops seveneyes Jul 2014 #110

By killing more innocent Palestinian citizens? justiceischeap Jul 2014 #112

Do I have to Turbineguy Jul 2014 #115

2,000,000 MythosMaster Jul 2014 #117

This message was self-deleted by its author Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #153

Holocaust! Anti-Semite! DisgustedTX Jul 2014 #176

Also, have you seen that NOVEL?! woo me with science Jul 2014 #187

The war will go on until Hamas is either unwilling or unable to continue firing rockets. WatermelonRat Jul 2014 #211

Nonsense. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #214