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ProSense

(116,464 posts)
14. No,
Thu May 1, 2014, 12:55 AM
May 2014

"Without Snowden, nobody would even be talking about the NSA, because we wouldn't have found out any other way. "

...reform the NSA and hold Snowden, Putin's tool, accountable for the crimes he has been charged with:

Federal prosecutors have filed a criminal complaint against Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who leaked a trove of documents about top-secret surveillance programs, and the United States has asked Hong Kong to detain him on a provisional arrest warrant, according to U.S. officials.

Snowden was charged with theft, “unauthorized communication of national defense information” and “willful communication of classified communications intelligence information to an unauthorized person,” according to the complaint. The last two charges were brought under the 1917 Espionage Act.

- more -

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-charges-snowden-with-espionage/2013/06/21/507497d8-dab1-11e2-a016-92547bf094cc_story.html

Many people who oppose NSA overreach and recognize the value of the debate also don't approve of Snowden's actions that go beyond sparking a debate about the NSA's domestic activities. In the end, a trial is required to hold him accountable.

I stand with Jimmy Carter:

Carter: Snowden's leaks 'good for Americans to know'

Susan Page

NEW YORK -- Former president Jimmy Carter defended the disclosures by fugitive NSA contractor Edward Snowden on Monday, saying revelations that U.S. intelligence agencies were collecting meta-data of Americans' phone calls and e-mails have been "probably constructive in the long run."

<...>

Does he view Snowden, now granted asylum in Russia, as a hero or a traitor?

"There's no doubt that he broke the law and that he would be susceptible, in my opinion, to prosecution if he came back here under the law," he said. "But I think it's good for Americans to know the kinds of things that have been revealed by him and others -- and that is that since 9/11 we've gone too far in intrusion on the privacy that Americans ought to enjoy as a right of citizenship."

Carter cautioned that he didn't have information about whether some of the disclosures "may have hurt our security or individuals that work in security," adding, "If I knew that, then I may feel differently." And he said Snowden shouldn't be immune from prosecution for his actions.

"I think it's inevitable that he should be prosecuted and I think he would be prosecuted" if he returned to the United States, the former president said. "But I don't think he ought to be executed as a traitor or any kind of extreme punishment like that."

- more -

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/03/24/usa-today-capital-download-jimmy-carter-edward-snowden-probably-constructive/6822425/


Bernie Sanders:

<...>

BLITZER: What about Snowden? Do you think that he committed a crime or he was simply a well-intentioned whistle-blower?

SANDERS: Well, I think what you have to look at is -- I think there is no question that he committed a crime, obviously. He violated his oath and he leaked information.

On the other hand, what you have to weigh that against is the fact that he has gone a very long way in educating the people of our country and the people of the world about the power of private agency in terms of their surveillance over people of this country, over foreign leaders, and what they are doing.

So, I think you got to weigh the two. My own belief is that I think, I would hope that the United States government could kind of negotiate some plea bargain with him, some form of clemency. I think it wouldn't be a good idea or fair to him to have to spend his entire remaining life abroad, not being able to come back to his country.

So I would hope that there's a price that he has to pay, but I hope it is not a long prison sentence or exile from his country.

BLITZER: You wouldn't give him clemency, though, and let him off scot-free?

SANDERS: No. BLITZER: All right, Senator, thanks very much for joining us.

<...>

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1401/06/sitroom.02.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024292659

I stand with anyone who recognizes that one doesn't have defend Snowden, Putin's tool, to be on the "right side of history."

Senator Blumenthal: prosecute Snowden, overhaul FISA courts.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023425884

Rep. John Lewis: "NO PRAISE FOR SNOWDEN-Reports about my interview with The Guardian are misleading"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023427908

“What Mr. Snowden did is treason, was high crimes, and there is nothing in what we say that justifies what he did,” said Richard Clarke, a former White House counter-terrorism advisor and current ABC News contributor. “Whether or not this panel would have been created anyway, I don’t know, but I don’t think anything that I’ve learned justifies the treasonous acts of Mr. Snowden.”

From the beginning, it was clear that Snowden broke the law (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023439290). There was a point where even Snowden supporters accepted that he knew he broke the law. Snowden said it himself.

Fleeing the country and releasing state secrets did not help his case.

His actions since then have only made the situation worse.

Whistleblowers have been making that point, some in subtle ways.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023236549

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023035550

Of course, this is dimissed because they're also critical of the NSA. It's as if some think that you can't be against NSA overreach (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023002358) unless you support Snowden.

In line with the OP question: Were you against Clarke when he went after Bush? Were you for Scooter Libby when he leaked Plame's identity?





Drake didn't go to Russia. He revealed exactly what Snowden did, 9 years ago. Recursion Apr 2014 #1
Snowden wouldn't have been treated like Drake. Chelsea Manning's ordeal proves that. n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #2
Like Snowden, Manning bulk-released classified intel. Drake didn't. Recursion May 2014 #3
Which doesn't exactly vindicate Drake's strategy there, does it? n/t. Ken Burch May 2014 #10
I dunno. Has it stopped because of Snowden, either? (nt) Recursion May 2014 #15
Not yet, but unlike with Drake, it hasn't actually got WORSE. Ken Burch May 2014 #17
Sure it has. A weaker NSA means a stronger CIA. That's much worse. Recursion May 2014 #23
There's no moral difference between the NSA and the CIA Ken Burch May 2014 #24
Surveillance *never* serves the people? Recursion May 2014 #25
OK, it did in World War II, when we were fighting a real enemy(the Nazis) Ken Burch May 2014 #28
So, for example, catching John Gotti wasn't worth tapping his phone? Recursion May 2014 #29
The problem with that argument is that, if you accept surveillance in those cases, Ken Burch May 2014 #31
Yes, the government is capable of abusing its power. Good thing we don't have single payer, then? Recursion May 2014 #32
Healthcare records have nothing in common with NSA surveillance. Ken Burch May 2014 #35
Ah, *these* government employees are good, and *those* ones are evil Recursion May 2014 #37
It's the truth. Ken Burch May 2014 #39
How many people who work at either do you actually know? Recursion May 2014 #42
I seriously doubt you know any humanistic democratic progressives Ken Burch May 2014 #49
+1000 Well stated cprise May 2014 #70
Well,the poster I was sparring with there still hasn't responded to it. Ken Burch May 2014 #75
If you can draw him into a philosophical discussion cprise May 2014 #78
Actually, yes. Adrahil May 2014 #86
Manning is military....they have an entirely different set of rules.... VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #5
Yes. Ken Burch May 2014 #12
did I say excuse? VanillaRhapsody May 2014 #16
Snowden would be given a life sentence without parole. Ken Burch May 2014 #33
30 years was th max he was facing. 10 years per count on 3 count arely staircase May 2014 #119
Drake himself agrees he is an example of what NOT to do cprise May 2014 #62
i doubt you'll get responses to this... druidity33 May 2014 #67
Pure ProSense May 2014 #69
No such "implication"... cprise May 2014 #74
FACTS SUCK!!!! / sarcarsm <-----cause this is needed around here uponit7771 May 2014 #90
And Snowden HAD to go to Russia or Hong Kong OnyxCollie May 2014 #4
Paul Revere ran to Russia, either by choice or out of stupidity... SidDithers May 2014 #6
Paul Revere *rode* to *Lexington*. MannyGoldstein May 2014 #8
He most certainly was a traitor--a traitor to the British Crown! MADem May 2014 #53
'He Is Priceless': Here's Why Edward Snowden Is Screwed ProSense May 2014 #7
You would prefer that nothing be changed. Ken Burch May 2014 #11
No, ProSense May 2014 #14
But there'd be no debate if Snowden hadn't done what he did. Ken Burch May 2014 #19
Snowden was ProSense May 2014 #27
You have so lost this "debate". cprise May 2014 #68
When backed into a corner surrounded by facts, Sheepshank May 2014 #102
As I pointed out, xenophobic conspiracy theories aren't 'facts'. n/t cprise May 2014 #103
If Snowden is Putin's tool, OnyxCollie May 2014 #21
From you link, PS.. thanks.. Cha May 2014 #26
And why are you dissing Assange? He was right, too. Ken Burch May 2014 #30
Given that we forced down the plane of a sovereign head of state, MannyGoldstein May 2014 #9
In the reality-based community, crackpot conspiracy theories don't become facts struggle4progress May 2014 #13
Other than apologies from foreign heads of state MannyGoldstein May 2014 #22
Portugal had notified Morales a day or two before his departure from Moscow that struggle4progress May 2014 #50
And didn't they later claim they had a fuel gauge issue? MADem May 2014 #56
We still owe Evo Morales and the people of Bolivia an apology for that. Ken Burch May 2014 #40
What actual evidence exists of any US involvement in that event at all? struggle4progress May 2014 #65
Thank you. snot May 2014 #18
I'm not. The pro-secrecy, pro-status quo brigade was bound to turn up. Ken Burch May 2014 #20
I wonder if Puglover May 2014 #115
He DID have the alternative to only collect and release information about US internal surveillance. pnwmom May 2014 #34
It's not cleanly separated like that. Ken Burch May 2014 #41
And it's not as if all his releases are fine, no matter what the content. n/t pnwmom May 2014 #44
I'm not at all comfortable... Adrahil May 2014 #85
He most certainly DID have one. He was either stupid, or he's everywhere he wants to be. MADem May 2014 #36
Would you agree that, once he said he wanted to go to South America Ken Burch May 2014 #38
For all you know, Putin organized that little playlet with Evo to create buzz. MADem May 2014 #43
Of course not. The US had no obligation to offer him unimpeded passage , pnwmom May 2014 #45
Excellent analysis, MADem! Cha May 2014 #47
P.S... Have you seen this theory? Cha May 2014 #48
Yes. I have to say, the more he pipes up, the more he makes the pronouncements about MADem May 2014 #51
Putin and Comrade Eddie needed to get Cha May 2014 #52
Enough with the "Comrade Eddie" crap Ken Burch May 2014 #76
Phrase has NOTHING to do with cold war and comrade is Russian term no US uponit7771 May 2014 #94
LOL!!! Capt. Obvious May 2014 #99
Comrade is actually a French term, adopted by the Russians. Ken Burch May 2014 #113
Isn't Putin doing that, restarting the Cold War? MADem May 2014 #106
He's trying to put the old pre-revolutionary Tsarist empire back together. Ken Burch May 2014 #114
I didn't say "commie"--I did say "Soviet Socialist Republics" though. MADem May 2014 #116
Nor has Wikileaks released the Russian files. joshcryer May 2014 #55
+1,000..! MADem May 2014 #57
1000+ uponit7771 May 2014 #93
Nothing leaked about Putin is a really good point, seems everyone else has been on the list except h uponit7771 May 2014 #92
The events are accurate, but I don't think he intended it. joshcryer May 2014 #54
Two things stick out. Well, three. MADem May 2014 #58
So Snowden wasn't stuck in an airport? WOW!! This Snowden thing seems more rapped around Russia uponit7771 May 2014 #95
He probably went straight to a dacha when he landed. MADem May 2014 #104
I was very reluctant to think Snowden was anything but a broken toy. randome May 2014 #98
Excellent post! Bobbie Jo May 2014 #87
Of course! That's why Snowden went to China first! Major Hogwash May 2014 #46
Yes! Any idiot can see that a layover in Hong Kong on a flight from Hawaii to Moscow Maedhros May 2014 #110
Perhaps, but if he had half a brain he would have located himself in a country of his choice before lostincalifornia May 2014 #59
K&R. redgreenandblue May 2014 #60
The pearl clutching over Snowden being stranded in Russia is just a distraction. Obnoxious_One May 2014 #61
Sowden is a dirty traitor and I wish cancer on him and any children he ever has. n/t leeroysphitz May 2014 #63
Wow. Get a grip! elias49 May 2014 #64
i hope that it never happens to you or anyone that you know or love.. frylock May 2014 #66
You'd wish cancer on his future KIDS? Like this would be THEIR fault? Ken Burch May 2014 #83
Snowden did NOT want to go to Russia. The US Govt forced him to remain there when they sabrina 1 May 2014 #71
Again, ProSense May 2014 #72
You can post all the words and links you want, but the FACT IS, Snowden WAS NOT HEADED FOR RUSSIA. sabrina 1 May 2014 #73
Those are NOT the facts, even if he wasn't headed for Russia why the lie about being "stuck" in an uponit7771 May 2014 #97
If he wanted to go to South America, why didn't he go there, instead of Hong Kong? Adrahil May 2014 #88
That has been explained over and over again. He was absolutely correct to choose a route that sabrina 1 May 2014 #100
Bull. Snowden was funneled exactly where Assange wanted him. NT Adrahil May 2014 #101
Who's funding Assange these days? Could his name be Vladimir? MADem May 2014 #105
New taking points don't facts. Snowden was headed for SA When the US Govt forced sabrina 1 May 2014 #117
Make up your mind Sheepshank May 2014 #107
Repetition = Truth Bobbie Jo May 2014 #109
although it's not working very well in this case. n/t Sheepshank May 2014 #111
No, not so much Bobbie Jo May 2014 #112
And now to correct that erroneous statement from you. First, the US GOVT forced Snowden to REMAIN sabrina 1 May 2014 #118
look at your post #100...YOU said he "chose" Sheepshank May 2014 #120
This is not reality uponit7771 May 2014 #96
Snowden had alternative decisions, he chose not to use them. I doubt if Thinkingabout May 2014 #77
I surmise life in Russia is better than getting life in the US prison system cprise May 2014 #81
Life in Russia may be better for as long as Putin needs him to remain as a patsy. Thinkingabout May 2014 #84
He could have stayed in Hawaii lame54 May 2014 #79
Uh, no. Hawaii is part of the U.S., and he'd have been arrested there. Ken Burch May 2014 #80
I think you missed the point - but that's ok - good night lame54 May 2014 #82
Not if---as was reported early on--they were "on" to him and his security clearance was about to be MADem May 2014 #108
1. Most of the 'secrets' Snowden revealed have to do with international spying. randome May 2014 #89
"We all know that no other choices existed..." Blue_Tires May 2014 #91
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»A reminder...Snowden had ...»Reply #14