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fishwax

(29,148 posts)
105. none of that provides any evidence whatsoever that natural born means *only* jus soli
Tue Mar 27, 2012, 02:05 PM
Mar 2012

The argument that "natural born" must not include jus sanguinis because the clause doesn't mention jus sanguinis would carry more weight if it weren't also equally true that the clause also doesn't mention jus soli. The established understanding of "natural born (subject)" at the time and place the constitution was drafted included both jus sanguinis and jus soli. Nothing in the constitution or in any law passed since suggests that the natural born clause intends something different from that. So absent any evidence to the contrary, I think the argument that "natural born citizen" obviously excludes jus sanguinis is not compelling.

The Act of 1790 is the only use of the term "natural born" in legislation. It is often cited to support framers intent to include jus sanguinis in their definition of natural born. What that argument fails to account for is the impact of the Act of 1795 which explicitly repeals the one of 1790 and uses only the term citizen, not natural born citizen.

If one believes as I do that natural born is acquired only by birth in the US and that the act if 1790 was ill formed, whether deliberately or by accident, then such error was corrected at the earliest opportunity in 1795 and not repeated since.


The act of 1795 revokes the act of 1790 because it makes significant changes to the naturalization process. (Again, by definition, naturalization confers citizenship to those who did not have citizenship at birth.) It does not specifically address the issue of natural born citizenship. Affirming that they are citizens does not suggest that they cannot also be natural born citizens. If they had wanted to correct that, it would have been very simple to do so. (And could have been done before 1795.) They didn't then, and never have since. Not when the act of 1795 was revoked in 1798 or when the 1798 act was revoked in 1802.

Mind blowing. My mind is officially blown. Wow. freshwest Mar 2012 #1
Mind Blowing that the OP isn't about the President snooper2 Mar 2012 #7
Well, there is that, too. LOL. freshwest Mar 2012 #13
I could seriously take this comment the wrong way. xtraxritical Mar 2012 #25
Okay then, here's what birthers believe, all their talking points. This is proof! freshwest Mar 2012 #54
Maybe Mittens can run for President of Mexico SamG Mar 2012 #2
The president, the only thing Birthers want made in America Johonny Mar 2012 #3
Good. Keep the little monkeys busy running around in circles. Ship of Fools Mar 2012 #4
Can you imagine how hard it must be to survive with that type of paranoia? appleannie1 Mar 2012 #5
Get Oily Taint on this, quick!! LeftinOH Mar 2012 #6
*Snort* freshwest Mar 2012 #9
... trusty elf Mar 2012 #32
If nothing else, it will have the effect of exposing Rmoney's odd family history. Old and In the Way Mar 2012 #8
Everything about Romney's life is far removed from normal Americans. mwb970 Mar 2012 #58
I think its about time to get rid of this rule alltogether, rather than suspect anyone and everyone LisaL Mar 2012 #10
I don't think it's a silly rule. What's silly are people too stupid or stubborn kestrel91316 Mar 2012 #18
Get rid of the that rule and you end up with Ahnold as Pres. dixiegrrrrl Mar 2012 #19
So you think some citizens should be more equal than others? harmonicon Mar 2012 #35
a lot of history was behind the writing of the Constitution dixiegrrrrl Mar 2012 #36
So... harmonicon Mar 2012 #39
It is a good rule. Actually 3 classes of citizens unc70 Mar 2012 #82
Well, you're wrong about what "natural born" means, for starters. harmonicon Mar 2012 #84
Citizen "at birth" not same as "natural born" / "by birth" unc70 Mar 2012 #85
It seems from those cases that there is some contradictory information. harmonicon Mar 2012 #86
Why I think natural born clause is good unc70 Mar 2012 #97
I do, in a part, understand your point... harmonicon Mar 2012 #104
Would you eliminate natural born clause altogether? unc70 Mar 2012 #107
I absolutely think the clause should be eliminated. harmonicon Mar 2012 #121
Constitution is funny about right to vote unc70 Mar 2012 #123
I was born in India and my dad was frogmarch Mar 2012 #110
Foreign born citizen at birth, not necessarily natural born unc70 Mar 2012 #111
I was born an American citizen. I didn't have to be frogmarch Mar 2012 #112
You are citizen under uniform rules for naturalization unc70 Mar 2012 #113
I disagree with your frogmarch Mar 2012 #114
Wiki is not adequately sourced unc70 Mar 2012 #117
Anyone who wishes to may go ahead and frogmarch Mar 2012 #118
No question of citizenship. unc70 Mar 2012 #120
Did you or parents take actions to ensure citizenship? unc70 Mar 2012 #116
Your adopted sister's case was more complicated unc70 Mar 2012 #119
I remembered when they discussed ahnold as president newspeak Mar 2012 #70
Do you suffer from such suspicions? jberryhill Mar 2012 #26
It's a GREAT rule--I say keep it. MADem Mar 2012 #51
His great grandfather isn't running for president SemperEadem Mar 2012 #11
I think you are missing the point. Tx4obama Mar 2012 #37
Wait until Rubio runs for President (or gets picked for VP) Ter Mar 2012 #44
Woohoo! freshwest Mar 2012 #62
And the Constitution refers to the birthplace of the person running for office, not their parents. freshwest Mar 2012 #61
still, Mitt's father isn't running for anything this election cycle SemperEadem Mar 2012 #77
nah, they're still inconsistent fishwax Mar 2012 #12
The rest running in recent years all had relatives here for centuries Ter Mar 2012 #45
Obama also has family here going back generations. Santorum's father, like Obama's, was born abroad. fishwax Mar 2012 #47
I meant both parents Ter Mar 2012 #64
McCain is not a natural born citizen unc70 Mar 2012 #81
well, I don't agree that being a natural born citizen requires being born IN the United States fishwax Mar 2012 #89
Those are citizens at birth, not by birth unc70 Mar 2012 #90
the constitution in 1787 simply said "natural born citizen," and didn't distinguish between fishwax Mar 2012 #92
Constitution has no concept of jus sanguinis citizen unc70 Mar 2012 #93
the Natural Born Citizen clause doesn't mention jus soli, either fishwax Mar 2012 #95
Born in USA vs naturalized unc70 Mar 2012 #96
natural born isn't another name for jus soli fishwax Mar 2012 #98
The final part of that report is weak unc70 Mar 2012 #99
Minority of framers wanted jus sanguinis, outvoted unc70 Mar 2012 #100
jus sanguinis was part of established English law at the time fishwax Mar 2012 #101
jus sanguinis requires statutes, legislative not Constitutional grant unc70 Mar 2012 #103
none of that provides any evidence whatsoever that natural born means *only* jus soli fishwax Mar 2012 #105
How do you account for Bellei? unc70 Mar 2012 #106
Rogers v Bellei doesn't address the term natural born citizen fishwax Mar 2012 #109
See also post #107 and previous. N/T unc70 Mar 2012 #108
Can you imagine if each of those wives had a couple of Cadillacs? JBoy Mar 2012 #14
Or the horse drawn equivalent of Caddys back in the 1800's Better Believe It Mar 2012 #21
It would go a long way toward reviving the auto industry! LongTomH Mar 2012 #22
Kenyans and Mormons are all the same to them... bluedigger Mar 2012 #15
That's it completely etherealtruth Mar 2012 #60
youhave got to be kidding me cindyperry2010 Mar 2012 #16
Guilty of schadenfreude.... (nt) ehrnst Mar 2012 #17
Just hit me. Maybe they'll want mandatory DNA testing next... freshwest Mar 2012 #20
Cheech and Chong - "Born In East L.A." Better Believe It Mar 2012 #23
Poor Ricky Santorum still ignored.... whistler162 Mar 2012 #24
Some of them want to know about that too jberryhill Mar 2012 #27
We have four presidents whose parents weren't born in the U.S. Rozlee Mar 2012 #28
Oh please oh please oh please SmileyRose Mar 2012 #52
Anyone still think being Mormon doesn't matter for a GOP candidate. obxhead Mar 2012 #29
Once again, they prove that they haven't got a clue! BattyDem Mar 2012 #30
They don't believe Obama was born in the USA. They believe he was born in Kenya. juajen Mar 2012 #53
It's even less relevant in Romney's case RZM Mar 2012 #55
But birthers don't buy that "argument" at all ... even if it is factual. BattyDem Mar 2012 #66
John McCain was born on a naval base. I believe that's considered American soil. n/t RZM Mar 2012 #69
I know. I'm not questioning his citizenship. BattyDem Mar 2012 #71
Well, they are birthers RZM Mar 2012 #74
LOL ... that's true! BattyDem Mar 2012 #78
you don't have to be born in the US to be "natural born citizen" gejohnston Mar 2012 #75
That's the situation the Romneys were in RZM Mar 2012 #76
That is probably not true regarding natural born unc70 Mar 2012 #83
It was, and it is. Doc Holliday Mar 2012 #88
The Canal Zone was covered by specific law after McCain's birth unc70 Mar 2012 #91
Born? bleever Mar 2012 #31
Maquiladora Mitt! Enrique Mar 2012 #38
The Idiocy of Some People Liberalynn Mar 2012 #33
To be more precise .... the idiocy of right-wingnut birthers! Better Believe It Mar 2012 #34
Definitely Liberalynn Mar 2012 #80
That whole thing about Romney's Great-grandfather is going to be fun during the campaign!! progressoid Mar 2012 #40
The Rethuglicans teabag monster has turned against them! Crowman1979 Mar 2012 #41
The funniest thing about this is that Michigan Motown_Johnny Mar 2012 #42
I'd be much more interested in seeing his tax returns for the past decade or so NICO9000 Mar 2012 #43
Mitt-Bone Better Believe It Mar 2012 #46
thats gonna be a pain when Rubio runs as Mitts VP PatrynXX Mar 2012 #48
Which of course PatrynXX Mar 2012 #49
Well, his deddy was called "Chihuahua George" and not because he was small or yippy. MADem Mar 2012 #50
In the 1950's fightforfreedom123 Mar 2012 #56
What's funny is that Ike didn't meet one of the three requirements underpants Mar 2012 #63
They just won't die, will they n/t RZM Mar 2012 #57
Arizona is swarming with them. lonestarnot Mar 2012 #67
Will they accept a legal copy, or do they need to see film of Mama Romney popping him out? tanyev Mar 2012 #59
Stop. Think. Isn't Romney a 2 faced idiot in a uniquely American way? Bucky Mar 2012 #65
Well drop me with a feather, nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #68
I'd Settle for Proof that He Was Born AndyTiedye Mar 2012 #72
On Earth! Redneck Democrat Mar 2012 #102
I knew that Mitt Romney was a Kenyan. kwassa Mar 2012 #73
I think they're trying to make themselves look evenhanded. caseymoz Mar 2012 #79
did they ever go after grampy mccane for being born in Panama? Javaman Mar 2012 #87
Yes, went after McCain. See above unc70 Mar 2012 #94
How come they never hounded McCain on this? Cleita Mar 2012 #115
yes, but unlike the President, the media isn't 24/7 promoting this spanone Mar 2012 #122
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