Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #9)
Tue Oct 15, 2013, 10:59 PM
freshwest (53,657 posts)
35. Progressive legislation and saving from meltdown took precedence over satisfaction.
War criminals are not tried or convicted by domestic means. I was for impeachment in the Impeach Cheney first crowd. But was also in contact with people who tried to get ICC actions through international petitions to the Hague.
We realized we had a problem going forward. The example most cited was Nuremberg. But conditions on the ground matter.
Germany, the offending nation was occupied by the Allies or in plain terms, foreign troops. They could order where people lived, what they did, take over resources, and did not have to take care of the population as the Weimar Republic did before the Nazis put the nation into default and set the conditions on the ground for the people to accept a dictatorship.
Realizing that state of affairs, whicn none of us have endured, although I have talked to people who did, the conditions on the ground there were apocalyptic.
In the days following the fall of Berlin, war crimes were committed such as widespread rape and plunder by some of the Red Army. They wanted revenge for what the German army did to their countrymen.
I don't know if the Allies did anything like that, but I never read about it. The Russian actions were recorded, but no one thinks much about that, as such things seem to get swept under the rug in all wars.
Consider the condition for the German people to allow this to happen to their leaders. Some may have wanted it, but some would not. But all of them were under the boot of the Allies. Told what to do.
Whose boot would the USA and its people be subjected when this great call to justice could take place here? Would any civil society be left as this happened?
In Chile, Pinochet was not brought to trial in any effective way. There are times of great civil unrest when a leader is killed by countrymen, such as Mussolini was.
We are thinking of such thing in terms of due process and orderly justice, and although Nuremberg was, think where the brute force was that underlaid the ability of the Allies.
War crime trials are not brought about the same nation or the regime that did them; in each case there is civil war, violent upheaval or an army forcing its will on the country at large. To try Bush and Cheney would bring about a civil war and millions would die here for that.
Consider that in a larger context. I'm sure Pelosi did, no matter how she felt. I had to come to see the big picture and why the world is not B&W and why we don't get blood from every one who did wrong, even great wrongs.
I would not defend in any way, Cheney and Bush, et al. After talking to so many people, I had to rethink satisfaction. What is satisfying is a luxury that cannot be afforded by many.
A Chinese proverb that speaks to the desire for revenge, which is the kind of justice wanted, as they killed many:
He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself.
Anyway, that's what I learned, and I don't hold Pelosi at fault for doing her job, when it was the job of the Hague. And we've never seen an impeachment really work through in our lives and when she was made Speaker, she didn't have time for a protracted show trial and leaving the nation's business undone.
For that brief, and it was much briefer than is generally claimed, of Democratic control, Conyers controlled the investigations and got much information that could be used in the future to try those two in the Hague. The period of time that Democrats controlled the HoR is documented here at DU. And what Conyer held hearings on is damning stuff, and is safe within the Congressional Record.
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Replies to this discussion thread
|Unknown Beatle||Oct 2013||#9|
Progressive legislation and saving from meltdown took precedence over satisfaction.
|Unknown Beatle||Oct 2013||#73|
|Spitfire of ATJ||Oct 2013||#38|
|marble falls||Oct 2013||#10|
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|Lifelong Dem||Oct 2013||#30|
|Name removed||Oct 2013||#34|
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