General Discussion

Gore1FL

(21,119 posts)

77. World renown biologist, and quite brilliant.

Mon May 20, 2013, 02:06 PM

May 2013

He is also anti-religion.

Many are confused by his words and wit. Mostly, people love him or hate him, with the confused and the religious making up the majority of the second category.

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What do you think of the word "unladylike"? [View all] redqueen May 2013 OP

You know what I think Dash87 May 2013 #1

LOL, every time I read your posts Jazzgirl May 2013 #47

Got another! :D Dash87 May 2013 #50

Yeah, Dash and I have had this conversation. Best or worst dig line ever! nolabear May 2013 #329

They still use "gentlemanly", also. Also rather archaic. SharonAnn May 2013 #99

What is archaic about manners and etiquette? Not getting huffy with you. I think we have different KittyWampus May 2013 #120

I was thinking the same thing. Did I miss something. Like you I'm just wondering. southernyankeebelle May 2013 #163

Does anyone say "ungentlemanly"? loyalsister May 2013 #168

I used that term today to describe a jerk dr.strangelove May 2013 #170

I have never heard it used loyalsister May 2013 #178

I have heard it that way as well. LostOne4Ever May 2013 #279

I hear that term a lot ....... oldhippie May 2013 #180

Absolutely. "Bill O'Reilly behaves in an ungentlemanly fashion most nights on his TV show." MADem May 2013 #217

They make it a little more 'wordy'.... daleanime May 2013 #227

I think "gentlemanly" is rather archaic. Dash87 May 2013 #210

I agree. I raised my son to be a gentleman. dmr May 2013 #214

Yes, but that has a positive connotation. southerncrone May 2013 #232

I haven't really thought of it, because I haven't really heard it. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #2

From my point of view, awkwardness is ladylike if a lady does it. Luminous Animal May 2013 #254

It's an inside family joke. ScreamingMeemie May 2013 #263

That's cool. Luminous Animal May 2013 #264

Antiquated and useless get the red out May 2013 #3

Men who don't consider women as strong, or as equals. DCKit May 2013 #4

I prefer unladylike behavior! randome May 2013 #5

Hate it. Who used it recently that has rekindled this discussion? PeaceNikki May 2013 #6

I hesitate to say, juries are hit or miss. nt redqueen May 2013 #12

oh, right here on DU? PeaceNikki May 2013 #19

Look at the replies to this OP. redqueen May 2013 #24

*sigh* PeaceNikki May 2013 #25

I'm not sure that's entirely fair hootinholler May 2013 #33

Par for the course Major Nikon May 2013 #200

What?! Someone used a word of which you disapprove? Oh,the horror. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #63

Yeah... like FUCK!! Think of the children!!!111!!! PeaceNikki May 2013 #153

Well, we may as well post the jury results muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #241

Cult of true womenhood. ZombieHorde May 2013 #7

Mental hermaphrodites, unite! n/t TygrBright May 2013 #125

Well, I'm distinctly unladylike. MineralMan May 2013 #8

Depends on context. It can be a useful remark to someone who considers herself a lady... aikoaiko May 2013 #9

I'm generally not insulted by it. n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #10

It's a Texasgal May 2013 #11

Seeing it used here in this context hootinholler May 2013 #13

"unladylike" = not under anyone's control eShirl May 2013 #14

Did you just call Madonna a whore! snooper2 May 2013 #15

I wish it would take a flying leap into the abyss where the word "gentlemanly" got tossed librechik May 2013 #16

I'm sure most feminists agree. nt redqueen May 2013 #17

What 'abyss' has 'gentlemanly 'been tossed into? muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #191

OOUUTTRRAAGGEE!!! Puzzledtraveller May 2013 #18

yeah. this. (nt) smackd May 2013 #32

That I believe would be considered quite "ladylike". LanternWaste May 2013 #90

I enjoy many of the "ladylike" qualities in my wife... Pelican May 2013 #20

I think it's problematic but not wholly negative el_bryanto May 2013 #21

I remember a phrase my stepfather would use to describe "unladylike" behavior... KansDem May 2013 #22

My standard repy when it was used in the past.. madmom May 2013 #23

My standard reply to that is to belch. But I don't know how to spell that. Matariki May 2013 #26

In usage Cirque du So-What May 2013 #27

I'm with you. Strike ladylike and gentlemanly and their negatives for classy and classless. nt stevenleser May 2013 #56

Classy assumes that you belong to a class that knows how to "behave". Luminous Animal May 2013 #258

Classy has nothing to do with economic class. I've seen plenty of classless rich people nt stevenleser May 2013 #282

He'll I've been unladylike my whole life newfie11 May 2013 #28

Yeah. It describes me like no other word does. n/t cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #36

Lol I wear it proudly newfie11 May 2013 #54

Another iPhone user. Dash87 May 2013 #76

Lol you are right newfie11 May 2013 #123

You can always turn it off in "Settings" emulatorloo May 2013 #197

Thanks for the info, but I screw up far too much not to have it. I couldn't live without it! Dash87 May 2013 #209

Same here newfie11 May 2013 #283

Me too, LOL! emulatorloo May 2013 #346

Yeah, and I noticed the good-looking ones belch loudest. Eleanors38 May 2013 #265

I never mastered that newfie11 May 2013 #284

That was extinguished in the 70s in our house. JohnnyLib2 May 2013 #29

Seems like a bit of a journey from "unladylike" to "Madonna/whore" Buzz Clik May 2013 #30

These concepts are linked. This is Feminism 101 stuff. redqueen May 2013 #35

So, if you say I'm acting in an unladylike manner, that you're actually calling me a whore? Buzz Clik May 2013 #45

It implies that it is too aggressive for a lady. annabanana May 2013 #62

Well, I guess I'll have to disagree. Buzz Clik May 2013 #64

Only in the most remote sense Major Nikon May 2013 #192

Well, I generally don't think HappyMe May 2013 #31

You should just link to Dawkins' "Dear Muslima" rant. It'd save you time. nt redqueen May 2013 #34

Who the fuck is Dawkins? HappyMe May 2013 #39

The Atheist version of God (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #51

Okay. HappyMe May 2013 #52

It doesn't. You were making sense, you pointed out real issues that are worthy of sabrina 1 May 2013 #281

World renown biologist, and quite brilliant. Gore1FL May 2013 #77

So... he is a godless heathen who's going STRAIGHT to HELL!!!! Demo_Chris May 2013 #82

I'm still confused about the HappyMe May 2013 #88

Hell if I know. I figure if terms like "ladylike" are your big concerns... Demo_Chris May 2013 #98

Thanks. HappyMe May 2013 #102

What a ridiculous conclusion go make. Discussing the word ladylike sufrommich May 2013 #103

Remember Derailing for Dummies? redqueen May 2013 #111

Read EXACTLY what I wrote... Demo_Chris May 2013 #132

Except nobody "ranked" the word "unladylike" as sufrommich May 2013 #173

I imagine many people lack the ability to possess concern for both the large and the small things in LanternWaste May 2013 #304

Not a clue on why he was brought up. Gore1FL May 2013 #100

calling for another round of the Opression Olympics? bettyellen May 2013 #291

I'm not calling for anything. HappyMe May 2013 #292

flame bait demwing May 2013 #37

It is the companion to "ungentlemanly." MADem May 2013 #38

^ this ^ progressoid May 2013 #147

It is not a very manly thing to say (nt) The Straight Story May 2013 #40

"Manly" behavior is not popular with the author of the OP, either. Buzz Clik May 2013 #61

The companion to "manly" is "womanly." MADem May 2013 #267

But manly promotes the stereotype that a man needs to be "tough" and "dominant"... cascadiance May 2013 #338

It's just a word that describes a person's appearance or demeanor. It doesn't necessarily promote MADem May 2013 #340

I don't really give a flying fuck. Hardly high up on my list of things to be outraged cali May 2013 #41

I'm sure you'd really appreciate a man telling you your posts are unladylike. boston bean May 2013 #211

Wouldn't bother me in the least, in fact, I would probably take is as a compliment, or simply sabrina 1 May 2013 #336

I can certainly believe you feel that way and would have never bothered boston bean May 2013 #341

This is very unladylike Major Nikon May 2013 #242

and i will be ungentlemanly and agree loli phabay May 2013 #306

Depends on the context, but I don't automatically see that word as an insult. Nye Bevan May 2013 #42

Can men engage in unladylike behavior? MattBaggins May 2013 #71

Ungentlemanly (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #113

If a guy bends over and everyone sees his ruffled panties then yes! One_Life_To_Give May 2013 #195

"And when he pulls his frilly nylon panties right up tight, Art_from_Ark May 2013 #273

My wife uses that term all the time Shrek May 2013 #43

My mother also used that term all the time. RebelOne May 2013 #110

Growing up and a "tomboy" I hated it. And, at age 55, I still don't know what the fuck Luminous Animal May 2013 #260

In the here and now, I think it refers (colloquially at its weakest point) to any female... LanternWaste May 2013 #44

I think you've hit on it. . . .n/t annabanana May 2013 #66

Thank you for this post. short and excellent. nt. NCTraveler May 2013 #171

I have no problem with the word "ladylike" badtoworse May 2013 #46

It's ridiculous. sibelian May 2013 #48

No. Do not care to discuss it. Got better things to do. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #49

You are posting on DU MattBaggins May 2013 #73

Nor you. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #84

And yet, here you are... Squinch May 2013 #216

Archaic, should be discarded from modern usage. (nt) Paladin May 2013 #53

I have a feeling it is used all the time around the world. Rex May 2013 #55

I admit I use it with my daughter maddezmom May 2013 #59

Do you use it with your sons if you have any? MattBaggins May 2013 #74

My son is a nonverbal and he has severe autism maddezmom May 2013 #83

The daughter I azmom May 2013 #112

Well I believe you can be a real feminist and have manners. n/t maddezmom May 2013 #116

I think the issue azmom May 2013 #130

The companion word is "ungentlemanly." MADem May 2013 #221

What does it matter where ones elbows are? MattBaggins May 2013 #248

... opiate69 May 2013 #249

So another dead unimportant European thing MattBaggins May 2013 #251

pretty much... opiate69 May 2013 #252

If you don't understand why it is rude, I can't help you. MADem May 2013 #250

Lol.. It's not about wealth MattBaggins May 2013 #253

If they're invited to a formal event, they do want this information and they want to follow it. MADem May 2013 #266

Yeah. Or belching loudly. Or spitting. Who cares about this "manners" stuff? (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #259

Belching isn't rude in every culture MattBaggins May 2013 #261

I guess I am in the minority here. Rex May 2013 #107

I think it's a substantial mis-identification or mis-attribution of what the traits of valid patrice May 2013 #57

i laugh at people who think they are insulting me with it... (as in i'm NOT ladylike) Scout May 2013 #58

A condition I strive for daily! annabanana May 2013 #60

Meaningless in a Modern Society. Same goes for "Manly." CBGLuthier May 2013 #65

This message was self-deleted by its author Apophis May 2013 #67

It's a word used to remind a woman that she's entered sufrommich May 2013 #68

Apparently this thread is for you to tell us all how we should feel ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #69

and for attention datasuspect May 2013 #93

OMG, I just found the thread that spurred all this ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #97

Please share then hootinholler May 2013 #101

Here ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #105

LOL azmom May 2013 #118

Really? hootinholler May 2013 #127

LMMFAO!! That is epic! opiate69 May 2013 #129

And the lulz never stop ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #185

lmao... wind 'em up and watch 'em go!! opiate69 May 2013 #188

It would be even more so to see the alert results Major Nikon May 2013 #208

This message was self-deleted by its author opiate69 May 2013 #108

+1 Buzz Clik May 2013 #141

My Mom used it on my sisters all the time in the late sixties/ early seventies. It was code FSogol May 2013 #70

My grandmother used the term ... onpatrol98 May 2013 #72

I strive to be unladylike every day BuddhaGirl May 2013 #75

Are you implying that a woman would act like a man? RC May 2013 #78

I never really thought about it much, but Jamaal510 May 2013 #79

It's very very JustAnotherGen May 2013 #80

I don't think I have heard it used other than ironically. nt Demo_Chris May 2013 #81

If a woman lifts her leg and farts, I can't call her act "ungentlemanly", can I? Scuba May 2013 #85

somebody that would probably be a lot of fun to be around. hobbit709 May 2013 #86

i hear it used most often when older women (boomers and lost generation) galileoreloaded May 2013 #87

The same thing I think of "unmanly" MNBrewer May 2013 #89

Oh - you'll LOVE this then... jmg257 May 2013 #91

i sit down to pee datasuspect May 2013 #92

Fine. I'll confess. So do I. randome May 2013 #106

On a train, airplane or other moving conveyance, it is the gentlemanly thing to do. MADem May 2013 #228

It was something I was accused of all the time by nuns and various Cleita May 2013 #94

Do people still use that?.... one_voice May 2013 #95

ahem... cyberswede May 2013 #135

Oh, well... one_voice May 2013 #167

I would look forward to some relic saying that to me. Whisp May 2013 #96

Now Sissyk May 2013 #179

I'm old school. I do believe that part of the problem we have in this sinkingfeeling May 2013 #104

+1 Shrek May 2013 #145

It is a perfectly fine word. I have no issues with it. Throd May 2013 #109

I certainly don't think the term is worthy of a profane response. kestrel91316 May 2013 #114

I think the context matters, but I'm happy to give this term and its male equivalent up to help stevenleser May 2013 #119

I don't consider either one of them to contribute to "negative" gender stereotypes. kestrel91316 May 2013 #122

This message was self-deleted by its author devilgrrl May 2013 #115

I'm fine with it. It denotes manners and etiquette which are sorely lacking in many, many KittyWampus May 2013 #117

About the same as I think about "unGentlemanly" or "unManly". Tierra_y_Libertad May 2013 #121

"Unmanly" is a bullshit sexist term as well. redqueen May 2013 #124

Examples from current news coverage muriel_volestrangler May 2013 #199

Most of the time, "rude" or "ill-mannered" would do. nt raccoon May 2013 #126

I know the last time some pickleface called me unladylike, I replied Warpy May 2013 #128

Calling you unladylike to your face was itself an ungentlemanly thing to do. Nye Bevan May 2013 #206

Yeah, that was my thinking, too Warpy May 2013 #225

No way, the subjugation of women is deeply ingrained through virtually every Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #131

So true azmom May 2013 #140

Interesting. redqueen May 2013 #151

Hi redqueen azmom May 2013 #166

I was not trolling at all. I was answering your comment about the Madonna/Whore complex. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #169

No no no no, not you... redqueen May 2013 #172

Thanks for clarifying, I was concerned. Well, here's another kick. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #182

"like you haven't had enough abuse..." opiate69 May 2013 #194

Don't bring your shit over here. Any problem you have with Redqueen is your's. Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #196

I'll take it under advisement. opiate69 May 2013 #198

Shit hauling... Major Nikon May 2013 #234

"over here"? Dude, it's "general discussion". lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #299

Over here, as in the conversation I'm having with some else. You guys are free to piss all over Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #301

News flash: Now you are talking to me. lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #305

Only because you have rudely interjected yourself. There exists no device that can accurately Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #307

The device you're looking for is on your screen. It's called "ignore". n/t lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #308

Not a chance, reading the authoritarian drivel and Reich-wing bullying that Egalitarian Thug May 2013 #310

Good! I'm glad to hear it! lumberjack_jeff May 2013 #335

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #309

Post removed Post removed May 2013 #311

What do I think? Iggo May 2013 #133

It's a bullshit word: riqster May 2013 #134

Nose-picking. kysrsoze May 2013 #136

I think it says a whole lot about the person using the word... MadrasT May 2013 #137

I like it a lot! Why? Soundman May 2013 #138

Unladylike you say ? SamKnause May 2013 #139

It's Victorian treestar May 2013 #142

Oh, my! Your post isn't very ladylike at all!!! Zorra May 2013 #143

I was under the impression that carrying fights from one thread to another was frowned upon? Buzz Clik May 2013 #144

What the fuck are you talking about? What fight? redqueen May 2013 #157

Knock it off. Your shit storm/poutfest has already been linked and documented on this thread. Buzz Clik May 2013 #187

GD is the new Meta Major Nikon May 2013 #285

Gotta love amateur internet psychoanalysts Major Nikon May 2013 #286

Unladylike/ungentlemanly, for me anyway, are less about gender and more... Poll_Blind May 2013 #146

'She's a Lady' by Tom Jones Whisp May 2013 #148

I always hated that song for its disgusting sexism. nt Nay May 2013 #190

Tom Jones is English. RC May 2013 #222

That Tom Jones is English is irrelevant; yes, a "lady" in England can also be an upper-class Nay May 2013 #244

No, he is not English. MADem May 2013 #268

Laughable marions ghost May 2013 #149

I have no problem with the word StrongBad May 2013 #150

Sexist and stupid HockeyMom May 2013 #152

But it does have its uses occasionally, right? Nye Bevan May 2013 #158

Wow. redqueen May 2013 #160

Condescending, classist, and sexist. Deep13 May 2013 #154

Oh, surely it occasionally has its uses. Nye Bevan May 2013 #155

You realize it's being used ironically, right? cyberswede May 2013 #175

Funny enough, it was being used ironically in this thread's case too ProudToBeBlueInRhody May 2013 #186

"Ironically" doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. That wasn't irony. Squinch May 2013 #204

You need to have your sacrasm sensor tested. nt Deep13 May 2013 #246

Succint and accurate. You and Egalitarian Thug summed it up well. redqueen May 2013 #159

thanks. nt Deep13 May 2013 #245

something a grandmother would say Kali May 2013 #156

I get the feeling you do not wish to "discuss" this idea at all. Common Sense Party May 2013 #161

Yeah, funny how that works with progressive ideas on a progressive board. redqueen May 2013 #165

I highly doubt that. Common Sense Party May 2013 #213

Appropriate when called for. MrSlayer May 2013 #162

Fuck that word. Solly Mack May 2013 #164

Wow, it's fascinating watching folks get riled up and go into attack mode MadrasT May 2013 #174

Right? redqueen May 2013 #176

Actually the people getting really riled up are the "fuck that word" posters. Nye Bevan May 2013 #177

There's a difference between a dismissal and being "riled up". Solly Mack May 2013 #189

So who exactly is getting riled up in the first place? Major Nikon May 2013 #203

You'll have to ask those who make claim that others are riled up. Solly Mack May 2013 #215

I understand what you mean now Major Nikon May 2013 #218

Not nearly as fascinating as watching a thinly disguised meta thread make it into GD. Warren DeMontague May 2013 #270

Veneer-thin. nt msanthrope May 2013 #272

I think it is a wonderful word... 99Forever May 2013 #181

It depends on how it's used meow2u3 May 2013 #183

Anyone who called me "unladylike"... bunnies May 2013 #184

newsflash, you found another word to add to the forbidden list quinnox May 2013 #193

Every edition of the Newspeak Dictionary is smaller than its predecessor..... (nt) Nye Bevan May 2013 #219

Well behaved women rarely make history Blue Owl May 2013 #201

Meh. Men still have to deal with outdated views on manliness. Codeine May 2013 #202

I have no problem with it whatsoever AgingAmerican May 2013 #205

I like to see threads like this because they demonstrate that the big battles have been won. Nye Bevan May 2013 #207

It is outrageous! Riftaxe May 2013 #212

"Women should never be held to civilized or polite behavior" sufrommich May 2013 #224

Like Todd Akin did? geek tragedy May 2013 #231

Liberals made fun of Todd Akin when he used it. geek tragedy May 2013 #220

We will never have true gender equality until RC May 2013 #237

"Ladylike" is not a reference to uteruses, but rather an attempt geek tragedy May 2013 #238

Best compliment anyone has ever paid me. n/t cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #223

use it with my daughters Niceguy1 May 2013 #226

How quaint. nt geek tragedy May 2013 #229

I think with 24 plus kids dead in OK, I really couldn't give a shit about this vanity post. nt msanthrope May 2013 #230

I was literally just reading your post in the "girls poop too" sufrommich May 2013 #233

Because there's a difference between a whine, and an attempt to lighten the mood. msanthrope May 2013 #236

Utter hypocritical bullshit. Pointing out that sufrommich May 2013 #239

You certainly do not have to accept my say-so. But you could be more classy with your language. nt msanthrope May 2013 #240

says the person chatting about poop- while wringing their hands everyone else isn't fundraising for bettyellen May 2013 #321

I must say that I expected better from you. nt msanthrope May 2013 #342

I'm sorry- I just don't get people coming into threads they think are dumb to tell other people bettyellen May 2013 #343

I generally go with JNelson6563 May 2013 #235

What the fuck does it matter Summer Hathaway May 2013 #243

the doors story is an invention BainsBane May 2013 #256

No.. it's not an invention... opiate69 May 2013 #262

Oh, really? Summer Hathaway May 2013 #269

Yes, there was a lot of discussion BainsBane May 2013 #274

As I always say Summer Hathaway May 2013 #276

You accused the OP of complaining about men opening doors BainsBane May 2013 #277

What I posted was Summer Hathaway May 2013 #280

Awesome post. polly7 May 2013 #288

the only posters expressing outrage Scout May 2013 #289

This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague May 2013 #290

My God... opiate69 May 2013 #298

Amazing people should devote so much of their own outrage BainsBane May 2013 #295

I see BainsBane May 2013 #294

A group is comprised of individuals. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #300

language is part of culture BainsBane May 2013 #302

Is it at all possible Summer Hathaway May 2013 #314

I'll take that as a no BainsBane May 2013 #315

It was most definitely a change of subject. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #318

also, I believe you are mistaken in thinking BainsBane May 2013 #303

"To insist a woman be ladylike ... Summer Hathaway May 2013 #312

Sounds to me like you have some important issues BainsBane May 2013 #313

I am concerned Summer Hathaway May 2013 #316

but you do very consistently "waste your time" - and ours- on telling people their interest in bettyellen May 2013 #319

Please point out Summer Hathaway May 2013 #322

"You'll be waiting" proof you waste your time... and berating others who are discussing language or bettyellen May 2013 #323

You made the accusation. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #324

change the topic? oh no, sweetheart it's ALL about how you waste loads of time bettyellen May 2013 #325

Still waiting. Summer Hathaway May 2013 #326

Cool, you stay there in this "trivial thread, and I'll be right back. bettyellen May 2013 #330

In other words ... Summer Hathaway May 2013 #334

Exactly- and it is not as if this wasn't explained clearly and directly before, yet the BS continues bettyellen May 2013 #293

I don't think about it at all. I don't give a shit about such trivial crap. HiPointDem May 2013 #247

Me neither, I wish I had the time to waste on trivia like this, not to mention that I have zero sabrina 1 May 2013 #339

I don't mind it really LittleBlue May 2013 #255

HUGE fan MannyGoldstein May 2013 #257

dare I sayeth, I think yon internete posteur may have used said particular phraseage in an effort Warren DeMontague May 2013 #271

I find it condescending and dismissive. Spider Jerusalem May 2013 #275

What about "unmanly" davidn3600 May 2013 #278

"Unmanly" isn't the equivalent of "unladylike". That would be "Ungentlemanly". sinkingfeeling May 2013 #287

don't forget the bitch/slut dichotomy ... this one seems more prevalent to me lately... Tuesday Afternoon May 2013 #296

Many, if not most of my sheroes have behaved most "unlady-like" me b zola May 2013 #297

Said it better than i could. alp227 May 2013 #317

This reminds me about the Jim Morrison story... cherokeeprogressive May 2013 #320

What needs to be discussed here? pinboy3niner May 2013 #327

Oh, just for the fun of it, Newest Reality May 2013 #328

I tell my cat she's being unladylike The Velveteen Ocelot May 2013 #331

That's the female version of "uppity" right? truebrit71 May 2013 #332

Perfectly good word, in Victorian literature, and acceptable until 1966. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #333

I know a lot of older people who use that word... Jasana May 2013 #337

It's still being used against strong women. Beacool May 2013 #344

It's a word. Like table or rutabaga. nt rrneck May 2013 #345