Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

Egalitarian Thug

(12,448 posts)
198. Before you go around throwing out terms like "painfully stupid"
Fri Feb 15, 2013, 04:54 PM
Feb 2013

and ignorant, you might want to look into some of that case law yourself. BTW, are you implying that you are a criminal attorney?

From The National Institute of Justice :
Police enforce social order through the legitimized use of force. Use of force describes the "amount of effort required by police to compel compliance by an unwilling subject" [1]. The levels, or continuum, of force police use include basic verbal and physical restraint, less-lethal force and lethal force.

Police officers should use only the amount of force necessary to control an incident, effect an arrest, or protect themselves or others from harm or death.


From LexisNexis
§ 11.03 Crime Prevention; Deadly Force

[A] Common and Statutory law – Deadly force may never be used in the prevention of a misdemeanor offense. Deadly force is permitted, however, in the prevention of a felony. A split of authority exists regarding the scope of the right to use deadly force in felony crime prevention. The minority broadly permits a police officer or private person to use deadly force upon another if he reasonably believes that: (1) such other person is committing any felony (including nonviolent felonies); and (2) deadly force is necessary to prevent commission of the crime. Most states, however, limit the right to use deadly force to the prevention of "forcible" or "atrocious" felonies.


There are several thousand references at both the federal and state levels as well as from the ACLU. Additionally, thousands more cases have been tried establishing just this premise.

I can certainly understand your desire to reinforce your erroneous position and emotional outburst, but it doesn't change the fact that this amounts to nothing more than your self-absorbed desire to ignore the law in favor of petty vengeance by using feigned outrage reinforced by argumentum ad populum.

I did however make two mistakes myself. One was to write "possible" when it should have been "reasonable", and the other was to keep this painfully stupid post kicked in replying. Consider both of them now resolved.
What "due process" does not mean: [View all] geek tragedy Feb 2013 OP
Yeah, a voice of sanity. nobodyspecial Feb 2013 #1
A large portion of DU thinks that it's never okay for cops to kill someone. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #2
Really? I'm sure you can back that claim up, right? Please proceed. Electric Monk Feb 2013 #19
Can you offer even ONE link saying that, much less enough to prove a 'large portion'? Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #47
You missed all the hysterical claims that this was a lynching, murder, vigilantism, geek tragedy Feb 2013 #50
So you've got nothing? EOTE Feb 2013 #52
If it's not okay for the police to use potentially lethal force against geek tragedy Feb 2013 #65
So again, you've got utterly nothing. EOTE Feb 2013 #67
Police are allowed to use tear gas. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #68
They had standard tear gas available. EOTE Feb 2013 #70
They used standard tear gas, and it didn't work geek tragedy Feb 2013 #72
And HOW did they know it didn't work? EOTE Feb 2013 #74
Are you seriously asking how they didn't know that the standard tear gas didn't geek tragedy Feb 2013 #76
It's to get the suspect out of hiding. EOTE Feb 2013 #80
So, he didn't emerge after the standard tear gas. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #83
Again, they were not in danger at the time. EOTE Feb 2013 #87
Due process does not require them to sit there forever waiting for the guy. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #89
Forever, 2 days, what's the difference? EOTE Feb 2013 #97
Legally, no difference between 2 days and 2 hours. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #98
The PD can not decide to kill based upon what they unilaterally determine is in the best interest of EOTE Feb 2013 #100
When a suspect is armed, dangerous, has killed, kidnapped, and carjacked and has refused to geek tragedy Feb 2013 #104
You know very little of the law. EOTE Feb 2013 #107
It applies from the beginning treestar Feb 2013 #114
You are terribly confused. EOTE Feb 2013 #115
If a person is a THREAT they get treated like a threat. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #137
A man holed up in a cabin surrounded by a small army is not a threat. EOTE Feb 2013 #141
Actually, yes cops do get to unilaterally determine who is a threat geek tragedy Feb 2013 #146
There's that accountability thing. EOTE Feb 2013 #151
Sure, if they behaved illegally they can face sanction. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #155
You and others are determined to see that they DON'T face sanction. EOTE Feb 2013 #160
So says an armchair tactician from behind his keyboard. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #162
I'd much rather have an armchair tactician defending due process and rights... EOTE Feb 2013 #167
I believe the right to barricade yourself in someone else's geek tragedy Feb 2013 #170
Along with every other right we provide suspects. NT EOTE Feb 2013 #176
No. Just that one. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #177
So you think that police have the right to murder anyone that doesn't surrender to them. Got it. EOTE Feb 2013 #178
Not a single thing you wrote is honest or accurate. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #180
So if the police kill someone, it's not murder. Got it. EOTE Feb 2013 #183
Now I know you have no idea of what you're talking about. Light House Feb 2013 #150
You clearly have no idea of what YOU are talking about. EOTE Feb 2013 #152
No, they are not justified to SET FIRE to any building a suspect Light House Feb 2013 #159
You act as if you're the ultimate authority on this matter. EOTE Feb 2013 #163
And you're acting and proving that you haven't clue one Light House Feb 2013 #172
I dare say that I've been in far more deadly sniper standoffs than you have. EOTE Feb 2013 #175
Oh I'm sure you have. Light House Feb 2013 #184
Now you seem to get how the internet works. NT EOTE Feb 2013 #186
Hell, for all any of us know, Light House Feb 2013 #191
I love animals at keyboards! MADem Feb 2013 #197
That's just too precious. eom. Light House Feb 2013 #199
What would have been the harm in waiting? treestar Feb 2013 #99
You're welcome to provide your expert opinion. EOTE Feb 2013 #110
We could always assume they are in the wrong treestar Feb 2013 #117
The PDs have certainly provided tons of reasons for us to believe them. EOTE Feb 2013 #118
I'll weigh in. Light House Feb 2013 #113
Regular tear gas causes burning eyes, Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #81
CS gas is more powerful in terms of its effect on the target. nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #85
Yes, I understand that... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #116
the other alternatives may not have been better geek tragedy Feb 2013 #129
Dorner, trapped in a cabin Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #140
I dare say had you been a cop within range of his geek tragedy Feb 2013 #142
geek tragedy.... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #149
.50 caliber rifles have an accurate range of one kilometer or more geek tragedy Feb 2013 #153
Ah, so it's an issue of money? Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #158
Let me get this straight: geek tragedy Feb 2013 #169
Yours is so patently immoral Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #179
Morally, his life did not outweigh the risks from letting this geek tragedy Feb 2013 #182
You keep insisting the police were in grave danger.... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #185
So, using tear gas was more extreme than bulldozing the place geek tragedy Feb 2013 #188
We had neither tear gas Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #190
bingo unapatriciated Feb 2013 #232
Thanks for injecting some rationality into this discussion. EOTE Feb 2013 #145
Due process applies only when the suspect Light House Feb 2013 #154
I'm as skeptical of Due Process Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #157
Standard tear gas is nothing compared to CS gas. Light House Feb 2013 #90
Doesn't getting due process pretty much equal not being able to kill regardless of the threat? dkf Feb 2013 #92
No, that's not what due process means. EOTE Feb 2013 #96
Due process requires being alive I assume. dkf Feb 2013 #102
No, that's not the case. EOTE Feb 2013 #105
So you are saying Dorner was not actively threatening anyone's life? dkf Feb 2013 #111
Whose life or lives was he threatening? EOTE Feb 2013 #112
And you are so sure no one was in possible reach of any of his weapons? dkf Feb 2013 #128
If we're not sure, then we must kill. EOTE Feb 2013 #135
The lives of others were in immediate danger treestar Feb 2013 #106
How? They were ~1000 yards back, under a great deal of protection. EOTE Feb 2013 #108
And that's the nub of the issue--not only are the police 'allowed to use deadly force,' they MADem Feb 2013 #84
How are YOU so sure he wasn't already injured and unable to come out when the place got purposely VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #208
You are talking about two different police departments, so stop with the "they" nonsense. MADem Feb 2013 #217
Not defending that guy......are you defending the ends justifying the means? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #225
I am defending the facts, as opposed to the half baked conspiracies. nt MADem Feb 2013 #228
Half Baked conspiracies? I have the audio archive to PROVE they fired incendiary devices VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #229
Yeah, so what? MADem Feb 2013 #230
and "I" am the one with a "half-baked" idea???? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #233
You don't have "evidence." You have words you are interpreting in a specific way to suit your MADem Feb 2013 #234
No I have an actual audio recording ......admit it....you never even listened to see what I had! VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #235
Everyone listened to what "you" (and by you, I know you mean network TV) "has." MADem Feb 2013 #236
So that means YOU DIDN'T listen to the actual police scanner audio tape archived right? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #237
Guess what? MADem Feb 2013 #238
then Go away....you began this disagreement. VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #239
Definition of DUE PROCESS VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #3
So, they should have flown a judge out there to hold a hearing? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #5
Oh really....then why are they lying about the fire? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #24
It has not been proven they are lying about intending to start the fire. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #27
Did you reach that conclusion via due process? n/t Nuclear Unicorn Feb 2013 #43
Reached it the same way you can....you can hear the orders with your own ears VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #206
Lying about what? Light House Feb 2013 #46
the sent "incendiary devices" into that building and then denied that they started the fire VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #207
There are also rules regarding arrest treestar Feb 2013 #109
There are a whole lot of cops who handle similar situations Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #4
So, it would have been professional to wait for it to get dark and let the geek tragedy Feb 2013 #6
We don't know for a fact that: kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #8
good grief bigapple1963 Feb 2013 #9
No, we ask that due process is followed regardless of whether or not the cops are really angry. EOTE Feb 2013 #53
If theKed Feb 2013 #122
did they bother to ask the old ladies delivering newspapers to surrender? Or the surfer? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #211
Why don't you ask the widow and two small children of Jeremiah Mackay? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #11
What a pathetic strawman. EOTE Feb 2013 #55
Do you deny that he shot the two cops that day? Coyote_Tan Feb 2013 #21
We don't expect criminals to be justified that's why they're criminals. EOTE Feb 2013 #56
Jeffery Dahmer had heads in his fridge....yet he was asked to surrender....he got due process VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #213
It would hardly have bee unprecedented. cali Feb 2013 #20
They "asked him to surrender" like they asked those two old ladies in the pickup to surrender? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #209
If you say so. He's obviously the victim here. nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #215
I am not defending him.....but are you defending the ends justify the means? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #224
In the case of subduing an armed, murderous lunatic, yes tear gas was justified. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #227
Your defense of Dorner, Light House Feb 2013 #223
There are a whole lot of criminals who surrender Light House Feb 2013 #7
Based on his manifesto, I am pretty sure he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. LisaL Feb 2013 #10
You're right. Light House Feb 2013 #12
I think it's very obvious he expected to die and wasn't going to surrender. LisaL Feb 2013 #13
Agreed. eom. Light House Feb 2013 #14
Mass murder is now show biz, and there are fans & wannabes. Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #73
Yes there is. Light House Feb 2013 #77
To some, celebrity of ANY sort is a good and valued thing... Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #193
So we just gave him what he wanted? So that makes it ok? klyon Feb 2013 #192
then why do the cops need to lie about it? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #25
How do you know they're lying? Light House Feb 2013 #45
Their lips are moving? Or, you can listen to the radio feeds from when the fire was started. EOTE Feb 2013 #57
Of course they knew the dangers of these burners. Light House Feb 2013 #60
Uh yes I know that, I made it very clear. EOTE Feb 2013 #63
I'm just a little curious, Light House Feb 2013 #69
My experience in this field means nothing. EOTE Feb 2013 #71
Why is it idiotic to think that Dorner started the fire after the cannisters were deployed? Light House Feb 2013 #75
Standard tear gas was used at Waco. EOTE Feb 2013 #79
You're correct that standard tear gas was used at Waco, Light House Feb 2013 #88
Again, Koresh was a cult leader who wanted his cult to die with him. EOTE Feb 2013 #94
A lot of suppositions here. Light House Feb 2013 #101
You don't seem to be valuing due process as much as you claim. EOTE Feb 2013 #103
You keep refusing to recognize the fact that Dorner Light House Feb 2013 #120
That is not a fact, it's a belief. EOTE Feb 2013 #121
A belief? Light House Feb 2013 #126
You really don't seem to be understanding this. EOTE Feb 2013 #139
And you don't seem to understand Light House Feb 2013 #166
You let them kill themselves? EOTE Feb 2013 #168
"The absolute worst case scenario" thucythucy Feb 2013 #194
If that were to have happened... EOTE Feb 2013 #195
And you shouldn't make assumptions thucythucy Feb 2013 #201
He was totally surrounded. EOTE Feb 2013 #204
7 incendiary devices were delivered yet they don't know how the fire started? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #210
Aw, bullshit. cliffordu Feb 2013 #37
You're right, setting houses on fire is SOP for PDs everywhere. EOTE Feb 2013 #58
not to mention the fact that fire removes all evidence VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #214
Such a situation is not daily or common treestar Feb 2013 #95
Really? Jeff In Milwaukee Feb 2013 #144
Really? "A whole lot of cops thucythucy Feb 2013 #196
Yes a whole lot of cops Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #203
This cop thinks differently Mojorabbit Feb 2013 #205
The word you are searching for is "waiver" jberryhill Feb 2013 #15
Some rights aren't waivable. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #16
That's exactly right. Zoeisright Feb 2013 #28
Yup! That's right! No due process was lost here. longship Feb 2013 #17
I'm not saying he was denied due process but I still can't cali Feb 2013 #18
One that killed four people? Confusious Feb 2013 #35
So, was *this* "due process"? Fumesucker Feb 2013 #22
Different problem. cliffordu Feb 2013 #38
From the OP Fumesucker Feb 2013 #44
Indeed there is jberryhill Feb 2013 #202
This conversation is SO STUPID. Confusing truly unrelated issues... Bonobo Feb 2013 #23
if that is all true....why do the cops need to lie about it? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2013 #26
His post doesn't say Dorner didn't have a right to due process. nt Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #29
He had a right to due process. That right was not violated by the police. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #31
Well, I don't have enough facts. Bonobo Feb 2013 #34
Well, fuck. cliffordu Feb 2013 #39
"Anyone who says that Chris Dorner was deprived of due process because cops stopped letting Hissyspit Feb 2013 #30
As a legal matter, his due process rights were not violated. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #32
Did the LEOs know without a doubt there was noone else in the cabin before the "burn the pkdu Feb 2013 #33
stand offs that last a long time are in situations where people aren't being shot at TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #36
^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^ cliffordu Feb 2013 #40
"burning the cabin as apposed to the police shooting back at him" jberryhill Feb 2013 #54
+1! n/t zappaman Feb 2013 #187
" likely had no hostages since he was chased into the cabin ..." And.. pkdu Feb 2013 #222
Again, all the info together told them there were no hostages TorchTheWitch Feb 2013 #226
It is willful ignorance and purposeful mis-statements of facts such as this Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #41
In what way were Chris Dorner's rights violated at that cabin? nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #42
He was executed by the police. Why didn't they just use a sniper to blow him away? Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #127
Um, no. They are allowed to use lethal force against dangerous suspects. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #132
Why didn't you answer the question? Why not simply use a sniper to take him out? Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #164
Why not use a sniper? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #173
Before you go around throwing out terms like "painfully stupid" Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #198
Well, subsituting "possible" for "reasonable" radically changes geek tragedy Feb 2013 #200
Instead of attacking the messenger, Light House Feb 2013 #48
I didn't attack the messenger, but rather the message he has flogged off in the OP. Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #124
Yes he did have rights, Light House Feb 2013 #130
That's exactly what I wrote about in the initial reply, contorting the facts to fit Egalitarian Thug Feb 2013 #148
Due process does not mean 'I see a truck, let's unload our weapons without warning'. Bluenorthwest Feb 2013 #49
This is not about the abhorrent actions by those cops against those civilians. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #51
Those actions theKed Feb 2013 #131
They treated him like a highly dangerous suspect geek tragedy Feb 2013 #133
Tell that to the Republicans... theKed Feb 2013 #134
I'm citing the law. There is a right to not be presumed guilty. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #138
Sense of humor. theKed Feb 2013 #171
Too many posts that would read like jokes in rational geek tragedy Feb 2013 #174
You are wrong. Light House Feb 2013 #136
the police are denying they deliberately burned the cabin Enrique Feb 2013 #59
I'm not a fan of overzealous police Progressive dog Feb 2013 #61
All they need to do is look at the interviews with his former girlfriend. MADem Feb 2013 #62
Thank you. Light House Feb 2013 #64
The ex-girlfriend's remarks are chilling--and she was in a relationship MADem Feb 2013 #123
Maybe it's because of my background, Light House Feb 2013 #143
His suicide manifesto made it clear he intended to die. MADem Feb 2013 #165
Indeed, the irony is that the LAPD hires people like Chris Dorner. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #66
I think he made a very fine first impression, but didn't have the emotional fortitude or the MADem Feb 2013 #125
I don't think those of us claiming lack of due process are claiming that he was a good guy. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #82
No, people are pointing out that the claims that it's been proven geek tragedy Feb 2013 #86
You just slippery sloped the facts, there, if we're going to talk about those. MADem Feb 2013 #119
Fail. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #78
Actually, your statement is factually false on a number of levels. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #93
Free to walk out? The Straight Story Feb 2013 #156
He had a legal obligation to walk out and surrender. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #161
He was free to surrender himself during his week on the run. Light House Feb 2013 #181
Thank you! treestar Feb 2013 #91
Nice strawman! One side of the story has certainly been silenced. Coyotl Feb 2013 #147
Not silenced, Just ignored outside of DU and Infowars. nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #189
Shooting at cops is likely to end in death quakerboy Feb 2013 #212
Well, yeah. And aside from a teeny tiny number of people, no geek tragedy Feb 2013 #216
LOL !!! - Another "Great American" Pipes In... - Proving He Knows NOTHING Of BEING An American... WillyT Feb 2013 #218
Um, I knew he wasn't burned to death by police. geek tragedy Feb 2013 #219
And You Are SO Lucky In That Way... And If I Were You... I'd Keep Kissing Corporate Ass... WillyT Feb 2013 #220
Can you at least stay on topic in your childish, baseless insults? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #221
Some people resist arrest with lethal or potentially lethal violence quaker bill Feb 2013 #231
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»What "due process&qu...»Reply #198