General Discussion

ProSense

(116,464 posts)

107. Since

Mon Feb 11, 2013, 10:56 AM

Feb 2013

You say that like it's the only two options.

But those are not, by any stretch, the only two options.

By contrast, in the case of Dresden, the Allies felt that the only two options were to firebomb German population centers or allow tens of thousands more deaths to occur every day.

I've discussed my views on internment in the past, as you know. If you'd like to refresh your memory, search for "prosense manygoldstein fdr internment" or similar.

...I didn't present these as "the only two options," it appears you're engaging in some serious obfuscation.

So let me ask the question again: Drone strikes cause fewer deaths than carpet bombing a city. Do you agree?

Your excuse for the carpet bombing was fewer casualties. Drone strikes don't destroy entire cities and kill tens of thousands of people.

You should be able to answer the question based on your own assumptions about casualties.

You are avoiding the Interment question.

I know you previously responded to a similar question by stating that you "trusted" FDR, but that's not a justification and doesn't offer an insight for why you excuse it.

What's your excuse for the Internment?

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

224 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Why are drone strikes any different than the bombing of Dresden? [View all] Cleita Feb 2013 OP

There are theories that Dresden was bombed in revenge for the bombing of Coventry, hedgehog Feb 2013 #1

IIRC the idea in both was also diverting resources. Robb Feb 2013 #6

One result of the bombing was that people who lost their civilian jobs (say at a local bake shop) hedgehog Feb 2013 #9

Try "no danger to those doing the bombing" for starters. nt kelliekat44 Feb 2013 #220

It was to help prevent the risk of of an underground movement dipsydoodle Feb 2013 #8

Wrong. Confusious Feb 2013 #149

Your reading is selective dipsydoodle Feb 2013 #159

Really, I have a quote from the Third Reich about dresden Confusious Feb 2013 #160

MY reading is selective? rdharma Feb 2013 #163

Citations at the links Confusious Feb 2013 #185

Well I do have the slight advantage dipsydoodle Feb 2013 #164

Yea that was 40 years ago Confusious Feb 2013 #184

"As John Galbraith showed after the war, strategic bombing accomplished little..." Taverner Feb 2013 #121

More here: it's worth knowing about: hedgehog Feb 2013 #148

Well, it certainly wasn't in revenge for the innocent civilians murdered in the camps. aquart Feb 2013 #178

Two books on this: Destruction of Dresden and Slaughter House Five. broiles Feb 2013 #2

I've read Slaughter House Five a long time ago. I guess I should go back and reread. n/t Cleita Feb 2013 #7

Slaughter House Five rdharma Feb 2013 #11

German American Humanist.... Junkdrawer Feb 2013 #15

The only good consequence of the bombing of Dresden ... DreamGypsy Feb 2013 #209

So you want a formal declaration of war? randome Feb 2013 #3

This is sort of my point. We aren't at war, so we shouldn't be bombing them. Cleita Feb 2013 #4

I don't understand. ProSense Feb 2013 #18

Au contrare I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying if you are buying Cleita Feb 2013 #24

"limits civilian casualties" sibelian Feb 2013 #68

Don't forget theaocp Feb 2013 #151

Goodness, I don't know about you but I would be simply OVERJOYED. sibelian Feb 2013 #153

Dresden was wrong even during a time of War JI7 Feb 2013 #21

Yes, it was. It was shameful, which is what makes the drone strikes Cleita Feb 2013 #25

We haven't had a declared war since WWII Bake Feb 2013 #165

It was wrong back then and it's still wrong. n/t Cleita Feb 2013 #166

Post removed Post removed Feb 2013 #5

The Dresden bombing was intentional terrorism...... rdharma Feb 2013 #10

So are these drone strikes IMHO. Cleita Feb 2013 #13

I agree....... rdharma Feb 2013 #34

No it wasn't Confusious Feb 2013 #155

That is why the city caught fire like it did. rdharma Feb 2013 #161

Another straw man? Confusious Feb 2013 #187

I stated the facts. Nothing more. rdharma Feb 2013 #192

That article was wikipedia. It cites sources. Confusious Feb 2013 #193

History Channel - This Day in History rdharma Feb 2013 #204

It's been a while since I would trust anything the history channel has Confusious Feb 2013 #206

Yea, we firebombed bombed a lot of cities. rdharma Feb 2013 #210

You're just going to hold onto it no matter what Confusious Feb 2013 #211

Churchill withdrew original memo. rdharma Feb 2013 #215

Got any holocaust pictures you want to post? Confusious Feb 2013 #216

rail lines and the communication lines were destroyed rdharma Feb 2013 #218

I didn't post that picture because they were transporting jews Confusious Feb 2013 #221

Guess those refugees were afraid the Soviets might want revenge aquart Feb 2013 #179

I've been asking this question in relation to the assassination of malaise Feb 2013 #12

Yes, he did and with all the on the streets reporting we were getting then, nary Cleita Feb 2013 #14

Look Western governments have slaughtered citizens of other countries malaise Feb 2013 #22

We had a Panamanian student at the college where I was teaching at the time Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #72

Just for the sake of accuracy, George H.W. Bush arrested Noriega. JDPriestly Feb 2013 #84

My bad malaise Feb 2013 #87

I appreciate it when people correct me on my many mistakes. I never know whether JDPriestly Feb 2013 #139

I'm like you malaise Feb 2013 #147

I agree. I like the fact that Obama is not conceited like most poiticians. JDPriestly Feb 2013 #175

Like you I find human rights violations troubling malaise Feb 2013 #176

as you note, the death toll was horrific cali Feb 2013 #16

The comparison comes more from the point that we were actually at war with Germany. Cleita Feb 2013 #19

"We were supposed to hate all Germans" ProSense Feb 2013 #23

So we kill their citizens and this is them cooperating? Cleita Feb 2013 #26

They are cooperating ProSense Feb 2013 #29

We are killing their citizens as collateral damage. Cleita Feb 2013 #31

Who is making ProSense Feb 2013 #32

We certainly didn't find it acceptable. Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #105

You keep seeming to insist that Cleita is justifying Dresden. Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #36

What then is ProSense Feb 2013 #38

I guess if your child gets killed or his legs blown off because you were in the wrong Cleita Feb 2013 #40

Were the people in Dresden in the wrong place at the wrong time? ProSense Feb 2013 #41

I don't know where you are but you could be in the wrong place at the wrong Cleita Feb 2013 #46

That makes no sense. ProSense Feb 2013 #47

Absolutely nothing, but you have picked on a few words in my discussion and ignored every context Cleita Feb 2013 #49

The comparison between Dresden and drone strikes is ridiculous. n/t ProSense Feb 2013 #52

So would you prefer Mai Lai? Cleita Feb 2013 #54

Just this: Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #42

There was ProSense Feb 2013 #44

I guess you and I have a different definition of rationalization. Cleita Feb 2013 #48

You say it as if ProSense Feb 2013 #50

No it isn't. It's been in the military language for a long time. n/t Cleita Feb 2013 #51

The OP is not concerned about what you say. Cleita Feb 2013 #74

The Dresden raids were not conducted by Germany's allies. JVS Feb 2013 #17

No they weren't which gives us even less credibility than in bombing Germany Cleita Feb 2013 #20

Drone strikes are far more precise and kill lots fewer innocent civilians? FarCenter Feb 2013 #27

Really, did anyone say that? Cleita Feb 2013 #28

The AGM-114 Hellfire missile has a less than 20 lb high explosive warhead. FarCenter Feb 2013 #35

And how many innocent civilians who died in bombing deaths have to stand on the head Cleita Feb 2013 #37

Really? One innocent death is as bad as 25,000 (not 250K per earlier post)? geek tragedy Feb 2013 #124

Exactly treestar Feb 2013 #79

Phosphorous. That's nasty. Were the Germans upset to lose so many of their women and children? aquart Feb 2013 #89

Dreden was a war crime. former9thward Feb 2013 #30

I agree and I think killing innocent citizens in countries Cleita Feb 2013 #33

That is true. former9thward Feb 2013 #39

That ship sailed long ago, since practically every Pashtun has a blood feud with the US FarCenter Feb 2013 #43

well, i guess that means we have to kill them all, then. to be safe, you know. HiPointDem Feb 2013 #82

How so? Confusious Feb 2013 #150

So now if you oppose the incineration of civilians you are a "pro-nazi". former9thward Feb 2013 #168

Seems I can't have a discussion here without straw men Confusious Feb 2013 #183

Yes, you know more about the bombing than Churchill. former9thward Feb 2013 #190

That depends on what you are referring too Confusious Feb 2013 #194

My post was very specific. former9thward Feb 2013 #195

Yea, Churchill withdrew that memo Confusious Feb 2013 #198

Now you are relying on support of a man many considered to be a war criminal. former9thward Feb 2013 #219

He's not a war criminal Confusious Feb 2013 #222

You think you know more about it than Churchill..... former9thward Feb 2013 #223

Politicians are frequently wrong Confusious Feb 2013 #224

No Difference - Question Is - What Kind Of Society Do We Want To Be - Benevolent Or Terrorist? cantbeserious Feb 2013 #45

Dresden was bombed - as were other cities - to break the will of the German People MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #53

All rationalizations with no foundation in facts, just military delusions. Cleita Feb 2013 #55

The Germans were responsible for tens of millions of deaths MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #56

I always felt that WWII was more honorable than the subsequent wars, which Cleita Feb 2013 #57

1. Civilian Germans, though not guiltless, were not the S.S. 2. The SOVIET Army WinkyDink Feb 2013 #63

By "sacrifices of the Soviet people" you mean the civilians murdered by the Germans as they advanced aquart Feb 2013 #90

Yes, I do. Again: The Russians weren't murdered by German citizens, but by soldiers. WinkyDink Feb 2013 #144

The people of Dresden were also murdered by soldiers. aquart Feb 2013 #177

How do you know "it worked"? Vattel Feb 2013 #91

The war to stop Germany, taken as a whole, worked MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #92

You are trying to claim that one mass killing was okay, because there were others. WinkyDink Feb 2013 #145

That's not quite what I'm saying MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #167

Yup. Roosevelt refused to take in fleeing Jewish refugees, too. Sent them back to die. aquart Feb 2013 #180

So you don't know if the bombing was justified. Vattel Feb 2013 #173

Justified. aquart Feb 2013 #181

And would there have been a mean peep without fire-bombing innocents? Vattel Feb 2013 #182

War crimes, nonetheless, whatever the "beliefs." WinkyDink Feb 2013 #59

What if it was necessary to successfully end the war? MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #61

And if it were not? WinkyDink Feb 2013 #65

See "The Fog of War"--a documentary about Robert McNamara Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #75

The Bombing of Dresden is indefensible. Now what? Drones are okay? WinkyDink Feb 2013 #58

Not according to me. Cleita Feb 2013 #60

Or El Chorillo (Panama), for that matter. DollarBillHines Feb 2013 #62

And don't forget Grenada malaise Feb 2013 #81

WWII was about getting a nation to surrender. The drones are not about getting to surrender. HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #64

By proving we had the technology and the will quaker bill Feb 2013 #66

I fear we have institutionalized the mechanism for war without end HereSince1628 Feb 2013 #77

That is one theory. quaker bill Feb 2013 #88

Good points, HereSince1628. JDPriestly Feb 2013 #85

Clean war Ian Iam Feb 2013 #67

Jesus and guns jimgggg Feb 2013 #69

Thanks. JDPriestly Feb 2013 #86

Last time I checked, the Germans love us today. WonderGrunion Feb 2013 #70

You are really conflating Europeans, whom most Americans have Cleita Feb 2013 #71

Do they, now? sibelian Feb 2013 #73

First of all, anyone old enough to remember World War II at all is 73 years old Lydia Leftcoast Feb 2013 #76

They are actually far worse (I hate to say) BlueStreak Feb 2013 #78

Yes. Cleita Feb 2013 #80

Dresden was 2,200,000 percent worse. sofa king Feb 2013 #83

The number of Dresden deaths cited in that article is suspect MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #93

What happened ProSense Feb 2013 #94

More Jews were slaughtered during those three days than Dresdeners MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #95

I get your thinking: It's OK to kill 20,000 civilians to stop Hitler. Right? ProSense Feb 2013 #96

It's less awful for 20,000 innocents to die than for multiples of that to die. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #98

Actually, ProSense Feb 2013 #99

If we can't agree on something as simple as fewer deaths is better than more deaths, MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #100

OK ProSense Feb 2013 #101

Are carpet bombing or extrajudicial assasinations our only two options here? MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #102

Drone strikes cause fewer deaths than carpet bombing a city. Do you agree? ProSense Feb 2013 #103

You say that like it's the only two options. MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #106

Since ProSense Feb 2013 #107

Prosense: "Was the Internment brutally wrong?" MannyGoldstein Feb 2013 #108

"But apparently it wasn't unconstitutional." ProSense Feb 2013 #109

I can't believe you two missed this. sofa king Feb 2013 #110

Drone strikes kill far, far fewer people, and cause comparatively minimal physical damage. baldguy Feb 2013 #97

+1 Cary Feb 2013 #104

Everybody seems to think it's not so bad because the numbers are fewer? Really? I'm seeing this Cleita Feb 2013 #111

Would you rather have three or four divisions of Marines invade? baldguy Feb 2013 #112

Medea Benjamin said it best. Cleita Feb 2013 #115

Please spell out the process for arresting someone who's hiding out in a region of the world baldguy Feb 2013 #137

That's why there is that organization known as Interpol. Cleita Feb 2013 #138

What part of "no governmental authorities" do you not understand? baldguy Feb 2013 #152

So you don't think neighboring countries could send in investigators into places like Cleita Feb 2013 #154

Dumber than a sack of hammers. baldguy Feb 2013 #169

I think the other question is whether it was effective in ending the war more quickly... CTyankee Feb 2013 #114

Terrorizing innocent civilians is not winning us friends and Americans will Cleita Feb 2013 #116

It is always a risk and has happened. But the fact is that the Germans today don't CTyankee Feb 2013 #120

Yes, this is the eye for an eye crowd. They will avenge wrongs done to them. Cleita Feb 2013 #122

This line of thought always makes me uncomfortable. What happened in Japan and CTyankee Feb 2013 #125

There isn't. It's wrongful deaths in both instances of people who happened Cleita Feb 2013 #126

Didn't we also fire bomb Tokyo? CTyankee Feb 2013 #113

Here is something on it Cleita Feb 2013 #118

So let's put a few war criminals on trial for a start, for setting up torture camps just1voice Feb 2013 #117

I agree and I'm still of the hope that our war criminals will be brought to justice in the future. Cleita Feb 2013 #119

Dresden was a war crime--indiscriminate bombing designed geek tragedy Feb 2013 #123

Again the numbers? Cleita Feb 2013 #127

No it isn't. Jeebus. Arithmetic tells us that one lost life is preferable to geek tragedy Feb 2013 #128

It's that kind of thinking that leads to this kind of Cleita Feb 2013 #129

Are you aware that proportionality is one of the foundations geek tragedy Feb 2013 #130

Who makes up the laws? It doesn't make them morally right. Cleita Feb 2013 #132

Since when does your version of morality come from God's hand? nt geek tragedy Feb 2013 #133

There is no version here. It's a universal that murder is wrong. Every tribe, religion and nation in Cleita Feb 2013 #135

It's also more generally recognized that 25,000 innocent lives geek tragedy Feb 2013 #136

Tell that to the innocents who were killed in the bombing of Dresden. Occulus Feb 2013 #141

Try reading my post again, then consider whether geek tragedy Feb 2013 #146

I think the people who survived the holocaust would. Confusious Feb 2013 #158

Hmmm.... The Inquisition comes to mind. Also, Aztec human sacrifice (16th C.). WinkyDink Feb 2013 #140

It was still considered wrong by the majority of people and by history. n/t Cleita Feb 2013 #142

Religion has ever engaged in brutality to enforce its whims. Occulus Feb 2013 #143

I agree! As we have clearly seen in many ways, mankind perverts religion for power. WinkyDink Feb 2013 #197

But killing the "other" is OK Confusious Feb 2013 #157

They don't. Not really. Maybe some institutions like religions sanction it, but Cleita Feb 2013 #162

Carthage Confusious Feb 2013 #186

So you agree, war is evil. Cleita Feb 2013 #188

The Aztecs weren't taking willing victims Confusious Feb 2013 #189

Please read up on the Aztecs. The prisoners of war taken also were given a Cleita Feb 2013 #191

Yea, don't think so Confusious Feb 2013 #196

I gave you a source and many who study the Aztecs don't agree with you considering much Cleita Feb 2013 #199

No you didn't Confusious Feb 2013 #201

My apologies. Here's your link. Cleita Feb 2013 #202

Well I will agree some were willing Confusious Feb 2013 #203

Cultural differences. Cleita Feb 2013 #205

We already are Confusious Feb 2013 #207

That's a very defeatist attitude. We seemed to have been Cleita Feb 2013 #208

I think of it a reality Confusious Feb 2013 #214

Your kind of thinking is a fantasy world Confusious Feb 2013 #156

Well, there is that little matter of orders of magnitude less infrastructure kestrel91316 Feb 2013 #131

One wrongful death is one too many. Cleita Feb 2013 #134

The bombing of Dresden, while horrible, War Horse Feb 2013 #170

What I really think is that instead of considering dealing with terrorists as a police action, Cleita Feb 2013 #171

Then I misread your OP and we are in agreement on several points War Horse Feb 2013 #174

The Allies leveled Dresden indiscriminately. Drone strikes damage individual targets. nt bluestate10 Feb 2013 #172

Karma for killing innocents, but "not on purpose"? G_j Feb 2013 #200

There is one enormous, undeniable, irrefutable, incontrovertible difference.... DreamGypsy Feb 2013 #212

No nor can you change what happened at Hiroshima, Nagasaki, My Lai and Falluja, Cleita Feb 2013 #213

Exactly. DreamGypsy Feb 2013 #217