Reply #148

In the discussion thread: Florida father with assault weapon forces wife to watch as he kills two sons [View all]

Mon Feb 4, 2013, 04:40 PM

Orrex (36,372 posts)

148. I think that we've reached a good point of agreement

The term is ultimately pretty useless because it doesn't describe what it purports to describe, and it can be too easily abused by either side of the discussion.

Better to abandon it as a criterion for who should be allowed to own a gun or as a means to prevent sensible gun regulations (e.g., "This will only hurt law-abiding gun owners...")

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251 replies	Author	Time	Post
Florida father with assault weapon forces wife to watch as he kills two sons [View all]	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	OP
!!!!!	atreides1	Feb 2013	#1
Obviously he was not law abiding. This was premeditated murder. nt	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#117
The point is that everyone is a responsible, law-abiding citizen	Orrex	Feb 2013	#121
Every man and woman is a pre-criminal?	hack89	Feb 2013	#124
Is that what you think? Because it's certainly not what I wrote.	Orrex	Feb 2013	#132
You said everyone is a pre-criminal	hack89	Feb 2013	#135
Well, it's true, we're all pre-criminals that's why the police are militarized.	xtraxritical	Feb 2013	#137
Show me where I used that term--otherwise you're making a false accusation	Orrex	Feb 2013	#138
It is that entire "lawful gun owner until they are not" meme	hack89	Feb 2013	#140
Don't lay your hang-ups on me	Orrex	Feb 2013	#144
OK nt	hack89	Feb 2013	#145
In the words of Christian Grey, "Fair point well-made!"	panAmerican	Feb 2013	#193
Of course not all gun owners are "a crime just waiting to happen." That smells like straw to me.	nomorenomore08	Feb 2013	#207
Of course not	hack89	Feb 2013	#214
Oh this is well stated!	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#143
But make no mistake--the "pre-criminal" outlook is hack89's, not mine.	Orrex	Feb 2013	#147
I do but I am aware that I live in an area with lots of gangs and crime.	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#181
No where did that person say everyone or anyone is a pre-criminal.	LiberalFighter	Feb 2013	#174
Perhaps the gun wars are getting to me	hack89	Feb 2013	#180
"Law abiding citizen until they're not"	Bake	Feb 2013	#229
Of course, we are all 'pre-criminals' ...	earthside	Feb 2013	#176
THis post added nothing to the conversation at hand.	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#183
A IMPLIES B is does not lead to B IMPLIES A.	TheMadMonk	Feb 2013	#177
This is such a dangerous agenda:	hack89	Feb 2013	#179
Agreed with that. n/t	AverageJoe90	Feb 2013	#162
I disagree. Most criminals have a history I would imagine	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#131
I'm sure that he was	Orrex	Feb 2013	#134
I do doubt that any of us are pure and law abiding in that sense.	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#141
I think that we've reached a good point of agreement	Orrex	Feb 2013	#148
You are wonderful.	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#184
You may have seen "Minority Report" too many times.	Jenoch	Feb 2013	#202
This has nothing to do with guns, but domestic violence	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#166
Seriously. This is a Domestic Violence story and I wish people would get upset about that	uppityperson	Feb 2013	#185
If didn't have a gun, he couldn't strangle them all	tblue	Feb 2013	#198
A gun made the domestic violence murders worse, yes. But let's also notice it was DV and be appalled	uppityperson	Feb 2013	#199
He strangled his first child. He shot the second child. Your logic does not work.	Jenoch	Feb 2013	#204
But as I implied upthread, someone with a gun has a greater means by which to commit violent crimes.	nomorenomore08	Feb 2013	#208
Yes.	REP	Feb 2013	#212
I think I'd have to be taken directly to the psych ward after experiencing that...	hlthe2b	Feb 2013	#2
No wonder she divorced him.	thecrow	Feb 2013	#5
Killing a woman's pets for revenge is not at all rare	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#167
Nope,no regulations or restrictions needed huh NRA?	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#3
What law would have prevented this tragedy?	hack89	Feb 2013	#15
Did you read the article or headline?	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#21
He seems to be the only one who did. The guy had two handguns	Recursion	Feb 2013	#25
It does not say it wasn`t used.	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#30
Yes, it does. It says the non-assault handgun was the one he used	Recursion	Feb 2013	#32
Wrong,it says he shot himself with the other,nothing mentioned on what he killed the one child with	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#40
Yes, and it's possible he used an axe that they didn't mention, too	Recursion	Feb 2013	#45
blah blah blah	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#47
No it isnt	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#55
We both clicked on the link	Recursion	Feb 2013	#56
Why do you exhibit horror at the thought of a particular gun being blamed for the shooting...	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#63
Well, both statements are absolutely false, and frankly beneath you to suggest	Recursion	Feb 2013	#65
THIS.	Chorophyll	Feb 2013	#101
And his hands.	hack89	Feb 2013	#156
You are correct.	Jenoch	Feb 2013	#205
What the fuck does it matter?	AtheistCrusader	Feb 2013	#201
Point to a revolver mild enough that it wouldn't accomplish what he intended in that horrific	AtheistCrusader	Feb 2013	#200
A law banning ALL guns	crim son	Feb 2013	#58
We'll never know will we?	Sekhmets Daughter	Feb 2013	#92
Excellent argument for a nation with zero laws, dude,	kestrel91316	Feb 2013	#108
Of course we need laws	hack89	Feb 2013	#111
"What law would have prevented this tragedy?"	Spitfire of ATJ	Feb 2013	#115
Many states..	Capt13	Feb 2013	#119
sounds like a case detailed at the NIH	green for victory	Feb 2013	#4
Blame anything but access the guns and murderous male rage.	maxsolomon	Feb 2013	#7
It's not a 'this OR that' type of situation ...	Myrina	Feb 2013	#14
Could have been a contributing factor	maxsolomon	Feb 2013	#35
Well, very very few of them	Recursion	Feb 2013	#38
I know of only one.	maxsolomon	Feb 2013	#41
I was thinking of the woman who drove her kids into a reservoir in the car	Recursion	Feb 2013	#48
Along with not killing the children in front of the spouse	maxsolomon	Feb 2013	#95
Right, and not killing the spouse (though this guy didn't kill the wife either)	Recursion	Feb 2013	#96
What about that woman in Texas several years ago ...	Myrina	Feb 2013	#89
Postpartum psychosis...	AnneD	Feb 2013	#93
Do you care?	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#13
He recently became a Mormon as well - very sad story	el_bryanto	Feb 2013	#6
Guns didn't cause this? I doubt the coroner's report agrees with you.	DisgustipatedinCA	Feb 2013	#12
I think a person that disturbed would have done it in some other way	el_bryanto	Feb 2013	#18
Well, the assault weapon he didn't use certainly didn't cause it (nt)	Recursion	Feb 2013	#19
Both of the boys were stangled, so the coroner's report will probably agree with him.	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#24
Even if this guy had no guns at all, those boys would still be dead.	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#61
Who says they stood still or were threatened with a gun?	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#83
So he killed himself with a gun?	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#91
...which doesn't change the fact that the boys would be dead	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#99
He fended her off with the gun deal with it.	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#112
You made that up. Deal with it.	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#120
project much.	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#122
Nope. But you sure do.	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#123
sad	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#129
You wanted a serious reply to 'project much'? LOL	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#155
right back at yah!	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#159
Didn't catch this the first time.	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#125
If the person you are trying to intimidate doesn't care if they die	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#154
Reality catch it.	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#158
So you admit you are wrong. Good for you.	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#160
How lame can you get.	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#161
That's the only explination for your nonsensical posts.	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#163
I just love poster that have to proclaim themselves the "winner".	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#164
One of the boys was shot repeatedly	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#189
No I wasn't wrong.	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#191
You harped on the innocence of the gun	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#195
I hope they don't start talking about rope control or banning ropes.	Jamastiene	Feb 2013	#217
How could he have forced his wife to watch	CitizenPatriot	Feb 2013	#50
To be graphic,	Lars39	Feb 2013	#97
Right	CitizenPatriot	Feb 2013	#116
I have to agree	lostinhere	Feb 2013	#23
a gun is a gun.	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#68
That is nonsensical...	lostinhere	Feb 2013	#126
so you witnessed the crime?	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#128
No. Did you?	lostinhere	Feb 2013	#225
well, he SHOT them with a GUN.	spanone	Feb 2013	#136
Gosh I missed that -I guess i should read more carefully. nt	el_bryanto	Feb 2013	#139
He shot one son, but strangled both	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#168
Gunshine State	HockeyMom	Feb 2013	#8
Gosh. Why didn't she have a gun of her own?	SheilaT	Feb 2013	#9
I would have been hanging off his back fighting him	Mojorabbit	Feb 2013	#118
The report says she did	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#169
There are no words that can describe how horrible this is.	iandhr	Feb 2013	#10
He did use a non-assault weapon	Recursion	Feb 2013	#22
If he didn't have ANY guns, the kids could have gotten away. They all could	valerief	Feb 2013	#33
No, it says he strangled both. Awful	Recursion	Feb 2013	#34
No, that's not what it says. And the kids would have gotten away if he had no gun.	valerief	Feb 2013	#43
You don't know that	thetonka	Feb 2013	#98
That is not true	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#73
You need to stop. Who cares what kind of gun he used?	Chorophyll	Feb 2013	#103
I'm questioning why the headline said "assault weapon", when the assault weapon was a handgun	Recursion	Feb 2013	#104
Then write a letter to the editor.	Chorophyll	Feb 2013	#106
Which ones, and why? (nt)	Recursion	Feb 2013	#107
The ones that place more importance on proving a gun is innocent than on	Chorophyll	Feb 2013	#151
Except that's none of them	Recursion	Feb 2013	#152
Okay.	Chorophyll	Feb 2013	#153
He killed them with his hands	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#170
I read he strangled both of them then finished them off with shots	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#187
And gun nuts say SUVs kill more people.	Initech	Feb 2013	#11
to them i say ,well the answer is obvious if suv's kill more people then you dont need a gun to	leftyohiolib	Feb 2013	#36
Indeed.	October	Feb 2013	#44
Just look at this thread to see the excuses they make	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#51
Just wrong,so wrong	hollysmom	Feb 2013	#16
The "assault weapon" was not used - it was found in a bag	hack89	Feb 2013	#17
Where in the story does it say the assault weapon was not used?	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#26
When it says he used the .38, and they found a TEC-9 in a duffel bag	Recursion	Feb 2013	#28
It says he used the 38 "on himself"	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#31
Yes, fine, it's possible he used the TEC-9 and they didn't mention it	Recursion	Feb 2013	#52
Answer me this:	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#59
Obviously the crime	Recursion	Feb 2013	#60
If it were obvious, I wouldn't have asked the question	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#64
Yes, you would have, because you like to pretend a moral superiority	Recursion	Feb 2013	#67
All I have to go by are your comments in this thread	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#71
It's a handgun	Recursion	Feb 2013	#78
You are not fixated on the handgun, you are fixated on the assault weapon	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#81
The assault weapon IS A HANDGUN	Recursion	Feb 2013	#82
Yeah, so is an UZI	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#142
An uzi is a submachine gun. This is a perfectly normal pistol	Recursion	Feb 2013	#146
The smaller variants of which are 'machine pistols'	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#188
Wow, someone corrected your ignorance of the facts	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#157
You guys remind me of...	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#190
You remind me of some guy that has absolutely no idea what he is talking about	DesMoinesDem	Feb 2013	#192
Look before you leap	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#194
We know the TEC 9 was not the pistol that was used	hack89	Feb 2013	#237
I'm sure you guys are thankful....	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#238
No - it is the inflammatory headline used to advance a political agenda	hack89	Feb 2013	#239
Only a crackpot would become 'inflamed' by the headline	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#242
Judging by many of the responses here	hack89	Feb 2013	#244
There are three or four people 'inflamed' by the headline	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#245
Including you	hack89	Feb 2013	#246
I'm not a gun nut	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#247
Nuts come in many different flavors.	hack89	Feb 2013	#248
And gun nuts come in one flavor	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#249
I merely pointed out that the headline was misleading	hack89	Feb 2013	#250
The reaction by gun nuts in this thread	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#251
YOUR comment shows you're too ignorant/uneducated about guns that you shouldn't even be involved in	Ghost in the Machine	Feb 2013	#240
You shall sleep well tonight...	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#241
It was put in the headline specifically to enrage unstable gun creeps who care more about whether	DisgustipatedinCA	Feb 2013	#53
Well, I think we both agree the OP gets more traffic because of that phrase	Recursion	Feb 2013	#54
It doesn`t say it wasn`t used,what he shot the one child with is not specified.	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#29
I suppose it's possible he used an axe and they didn't mention that too	Recursion	Feb 2013	#37
Whatever,just another excuse from a gun lover	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#46
Is name calling your solution to all problems, or just important ones?	cthulu2016	Feb 2013	#69
Truth telling is more like it.	libtodeath	Feb 2013	#72
It doesn't say it the TEC-9 wasn't used, but that it was found in a bag.	DollarBillHines	Feb 2013	#39
Granted; it's possible he used the TEC-9 and they aren't saying anything about it	Recursion	Feb 2013	#49
The TEC-9 was found in a bag. Both kids were strangled.	hack89	Feb 2013	#76
One kid was shot and one was strangled	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#79
Actually no - both were strangled and one was also shot.	hack89	Feb 2013	#86
Horrific nt	DesertRat	Feb 2013	#20
If only he had married a gun instead of a person, this never would have happened.	valerief	Feb 2013	#27
If only the kids were packing heat, this wouldn't have happened.	alfredo	Feb 2013	#87
The Depravity Of America's Gun Culture Is Now Legend	cantbeserious	Feb 2013	#42
Another "Good Guy" with a gun	bongbong	Feb 2013	#57
Somehow, I don't think this guy was NRA material	NickB79	Feb 2013	#62
His neighbors said he was a hardworking, church going, helpful neighbor	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#70
He strangled the boys. nt	hack89	Feb 2013	#77
Guns...guns and more guns	amuse bouche	Feb 2013	#66
A lot of abused women may not realize how important it is to go to trial	ecstatic	Feb 2013	#74
sick sick sick sad story. nt	abelenkpe	Feb 2013	#75
How horrible!	AndyA	Feb 2013	#80
Although the gun aspect is garnering attention, I've been reading stories just like it for 50 years.	freshwest	Feb 2013	#110
I've heard the "preserve the family" line as well.	AndyA	Feb 2013	#127
There may always be two generations growing up differently and in opposition to each other. Sigh...	freshwest	Feb 2013	#149
Thank for you a sane post	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#171
I am more into prevention - that costs money. It's why things get out of hand. We need action.	freshwest	Feb 2013	#175
Very good post	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#216
thank you. This is nothing new, DV and all associated with it have been around for a long long time	uppityperson	Feb 2013	#186
8 characteristics of family annihilators	Recursion	Feb 2013	#84
The argument will always	sulphurdunn	Feb 2013	#85
Hm	Recursion	Feb 2013	#88
First of all,	sulphurdunn	Feb 2013	#219
How about a .49 caliber? Would that be OK?	Recursion	Feb 2013	#220
The Russians	sulphurdunn	Feb 2013	#222
It's certainly within Congress's power; I don't really care one way or another	Recursion	Feb 2013	#224
Excellent!	sulphurdunn	Feb 2013	#227
I'm not sure I follow that logic	Recursion	Feb 2013	#228
Anyone bent on killing	sulphurdunn	Feb 2013	#231
There will still be AR15s if the AWB passes	Recursion	Feb 2013	#232
I was suggesting	sulphurdunn	Feb 2013	#233
I like the sound of that	Recursion	Feb 2013	#234
Then we need to	sulphurdunn	Feb 2013	#235
236 posts was all it took to get complete agreement on something	Recursion	Feb 2013	#236
MORE GUNS!	Iggo	Feb 2013	#90
I've never been to Florida	Ian Iam	Feb 2013	#94
You don't want to	HockeyMom	Feb 2013	#133
Domestic violence, "traditional" gender roles, power, conrtrol, GUNS.	Chorophyll	Feb 2013	#100
He is another article with some more details	thetonka	Feb 2013	#102
I wish I hadn't read this. I think I'm going to be sick. n/t	FourScore	Feb 2013	#105
:( me too felt nauseous	LukeFL	Feb 2013	#196
The gun held her at bay while he killed the kids.	Not Me	Feb 2013	#109
horrible	Liberal_in_LA	Feb 2013	#113
That's a result of a patriarchal society. Men think they can make their	Cleita	Feb 2013	#114
That's nonsense	Orrex	Feb 2013	#130
in the OP story i believe the woman DID leave him and filed for divorce	JI7	Feb 2013	#150
J17 is dead on with his/her post	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#172
Domestic murder	obamanut2012	Feb 2013	#165
Guns or not, this man was pure evil.	Rex	Feb 2013	#173
One very lost man who felt he had no choice but to commit this horror	geckosfeet	Feb 2013	#178
Wow, way to take away the guilt of the man.	KitSileya	Feb 2013	#210
Obviously he is guilty. But imo he must be deranged to commit this act.	geckosfeet	Feb 2013	#215
I do understand what you're saying.	KitSileya	Feb 2013	#218
There is that. Which may be a counseling topic.	geckosfeet	Feb 2013	#221
Definitely. The fetishisation of guns in certain segments of the American population is scary.	KitSileya	Feb 2013	#230
Frank Luntz would be proud	krispos42	Feb 2013	#182
Are you implying guns are	LukeFL	Feb 2013	#197
Certainly not to the extent that those giant corporations are	krispos42	Feb 2013	#213
A horrible, horrible incident causing this woman unimaginable grief...	Lydia Leftcoast	Feb 2013	#203
By the way, not the only such incident reported today:	Lydia Leftcoast	Feb 2013	#206
if she had a hand gun avaliable	okieinpain	Feb 2013	#209
Thats what they are saying at Freerepublic	AgingAmerican	Feb 2013	#243
This guy should be the posterchild (no pun intended) for the assault weapons ban	davidpdx	Feb 2013	#211
This is what happens when the gun grabbers ban 30 round clips	jpak	Feb 2013	#223
That which calls itself "Christianity" needs to examine its conscience.	patrice	Feb 2013	#226

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