Reply #22

In the discussion thread: A guy just shot himself in the bathroom of the cyber cafe I am posting from (Open carry activist) [View all]

Response to malaise (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 31, 2013, 07:56 PM

BlueStreak (3,818 posts)

22. The real impact of Newtown is that many people are learing just how pervasive shootings are

self-inflicted and otherwise. Previously unless some mentally disturbed young white kid mowed down 20 people it was barely covered. With the new sensitivity to this, we now know that stuff like this is happening all day long all across the country. It is so much worse than Newtown, it is really unbelievable that the gun people have been able to suppress this stuff for so long.

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291 replies	Author	Time	Post
A guy just shot himself in the bathroom of the cyber cafe I am posting from (Open carry activist) [View all]	Nika	Jan 2013	OP
I normally hide all the gun threads, but this is just too funny!	Egalitarian Thug	Jan 2013	#1
I try not to laugh at other people's suffering but	limpyhobbler	Jan 2013	#34
When it's self-inflicted	mythology	Jan 2013	#130
Schadenfreude	panzerfaust	Feb 2013	#193
Need more guns	SCantiGOP	Feb 2013	#203
!	FiveGoodMen	Feb 2013	#271
first someone shoots one of his nuts off	PatrynXX	Feb 2013	#270
Somehow, when they shoot themselves, I don't really care.	CBGLuthier	Jan 2013	#2
As a gun proponent	guardian	Jan 2013	#4
Feel the same way when idiots crash their cars	The Straight Story	Jan 2013	#80
yeh, those open drive advocates are real assholes	frylock	Jan 2013	#110
Because comparing Constitutional rights and State-revocable privileges makes SO MUCH SENSE	Occulus	Jan 2013	#116
Because that wasn't the point of that post at all.	cui bono	Feb 2013	#147
because there was no point..	frylock	Feb 2013	#156
And par for his course...nt	joeybee12	Feb 2013	#234
And people who drive like assholes get charged	laundry_queen	Feb 2013	#142
Not nearly as many as should be	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#162
Watch it if you come to Florida...	Sancho	Feb 2013	#180
I've been there many times	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#213
LOL nt	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#240
I ride with people like you only once.	Whovian	Feb 2013	#198
Not so much in the fairing	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#215
Ride like everyone else on the road is out to kill you.	Whovian	Feb 2013	#220
Always have and some have been more successful than others	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#223
If one can't go into a rest room without shooting	G_j	Feb 2013	#202
Wow that really helps us see the holes in the analogy	treestar	Feb 2013	#278
I think it did hurt plenty. He looked shocky when he left on the gurney with	Nika	Feb 2013	#229
I'm sorry. I can't resist...	GoCubsGo	Jan 2013	#3
Me too! Have you seen this compilation?	Bozita	Jan 2013	#50
Oh,so that is why Jim Rob the Freeper Magnate needs a Socialist WheelChair	Rain Mcloud	Jan 2013	#120
I'm stunned that your response was alerted. Here are the jury results:	JackBeck	Jan 2013	#140
Beware the puritan police!	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#195
Well, if you had contrived an anti-gun statement to go with it...	Eleanors38	Feb 2013	#205
Don't know how I can work guns into Ashley Judd running	mikeysnot	Feb 2013	#209
I don't know who Juror #6 was	Rob H.	Feb 2013	#224
Agreed.	Rain Mcloud	Feb 2013	#272
Gee, he must feel stupid, trying impress all those normal folks .	TheCowsCameHome	Jan 2013	#5
Was that a " good guy with a gun shooting a bad buy with a gun" ?	pkdu	Jan 2013	#6
LOL	Spazito	Jan 2013	#54
If he had another gun...	awoke_in_2003	Jan 2013	#73
.	ReRe	Jan 2013	#74
DUzy!	Rob H.	Feb 2013	#225
It wasn't a bad guy	Turbineguy	Feb 2013	#177
Imagine the tragedy that could have happened...	pinboy3niner	Jan 2013	#7
Especially in downtown Eugene in the middle of the afternoon.	Shrike47	Jan 2013	#11
True, LOL! nt	pinboy3niner	Jan 2013	#29
He's the most dangerous thing to happen in Eugene so far this year.	Coyotl	Jan 2013	#78
We had seven cops answer the call to secure the scene for the ambulance as a gun was involved.	Nika	Jan 2013	#92
Ahh but what if it had been Springfield?	snort	Jan 2013	#83
If it were Springfield, as per the local rivalry between the cities...	Nika	Jan 2013	#89
This might be a case where Open Carry makes the rest of us safer	Demeter	Feb 2013	#182
thank goodness no one else got hurt nt	treestar	Feb 2013	#279
Hammer down on a live round?	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#8
He belongs to a group (small one I think) called the 'Oregon Militia."	Nika	Jan 2013	#20
he needs to get a ticket for firing a weapon in public!	orleans	Feb 2013	#253
I fully agree with you and it is indeed illegal to fire a gun in the incorperated portion of Eugene.	Nika	Feb 2013	#277
That says a lot, actually... nt	cecilfirefox	Feb 2013	#265
Probably, that's what I thought.	Deep13	Jan 2013	#30
Maybe he went to rub one out with his precious. (n/m)	ProudToBeBlueInRhody	Jan 2013	#91
he did do something very stupid with the pistol. it's called open carry.	frylock	Jan 2013	#112
Open carry is not inherently unsafe or stupid	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#123
It is inherently stupid and unsafe for a civilian. nt	SunSeeker	Jan 2013	#138
That would depend on the civilian.	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#139
Out of uniform, open carry is unsafe, period.	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#154
You have not established that it is always unsafe, we have agreed it upsets some	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#159
I tend to agree, and WISH there were	Volaris	Feb 2013	#167
Some good thoughts.	IdaBriggs	Feb 2013	#187
cops open carry because it's a part of their job..	frylock	Feb 2013	#155
Which has nothing to do with its safety	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#160
Link(s)? Facts? nt	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#169
Its basic doctrine, civilian/LEO/Military	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#170
I see, you were making it up. nt	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#171
Far from it...your statement is much like the creationists going after evolution...its that basic	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#173
Creationists don't demand facts and links...it's that basic.	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#219
And I lose patience with those who argue from emotion and not facts	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#221
An honest question ...	polly7	Feb 2013	#233
Safer purely from a gun handling perspective	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#239
Sorry, I hadn't read your earlier post.	polly7	Feb 2013	#243
Nor are most things when done by professionals. But to compare a cop to any random bubba with a gun	panzerfaust	Feb 2013	#194
Do you realize how little gun training police get?	dmallind	Feb 2013	#200
"Less than the average hobbyist gets in a week."	panzerfaust	Feb 2013	#217
As I said upthread, it depends on the civilian	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#218
This message was self-deleted by its author	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#244
I'm sure this is traumatic for you.	LeftofObama	Jan 2013	#9
If the bullet had gone the wrong way, two of us in front of the loo could of been hit.	Nika	Jan 2013	#13
You might want to go home and have a drink.	LeftofObama	Jan 2013	#21
Well, just in case it happens again	Warpy	Jan 2013	#24
Good ideas . . .	another_liberal	Jan 2013	#57
Why no tourniquet?	Kolesar	Jan 2013	#58
We used a leather belt. There was a tourniquet.	Nika	Jan 2013	#61
It cuts off collateral circulation to the whole appendage	Warpy	Jan 2013	#70
Scouts said it was to be used in a "life or limb" scenario	Kolesar	Jan 2013	#93
Oh, I'd have let the local Gestapo talk to him for that stunt.	Warpy	Jan 2013	#134
I wouldn't see why they'd need to get angry	Kennah	Feb 2013	#164
Cops don't tend to take assholes with guns lightly	Warpy	Feb 2013	#166
This drunk has already been in the dock on weapons charges	Kolesar	Feb 2013	#179
Tourniquets are actually making a comeback...	actslikeacarrot	Jan 2013	#103
If you're out where there is only a belt and no extra clothing	Warpy	Jan 2013	#133
The new CAT (Combat Application Tourniquet) system has literally been a lifesaver	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#174
Tourniquets are routine.	RickinSF	Feb 2013	#231
When an ambulance is nearby and the hospital is a few minutes away	jeff47	Feb 2013	#250
Like the sign on the Old West Saloon	formercia	Jan 2013	#40
It's so sad we have to RE-LEARN this policy. nt	Ed Suspicious	Jan 2013	#79
That's right... And I assume the help had to clean up after the mess... And fix the roof?	freshwest	Jan 2013	#60
They did have to do that. Someone who has training with bio hazard protocol did come over to help	Nika	Jan 2013	#67
Since your business wisely called the PD, they'll bill him and reimburse you, I'm sure.	freshwest	Jan 2013	#87
All that blood on the floor, and the hole in the tiles? He built that!	hatrack	Jan 2013	#81
There are bagger infestations up and down the west coast, doncha know. Sad, but true.	freshwest	Jan 2013	#86
off subject -what are the worst of these areas? Are they grouped in one county or place?	lunasun	Jan 2013	#101
Some inland areas... Or check the voting districts... It's all there... Yikes.	freshwest	Jan 2013	#111
Antelope Valley (Lancaster/Palmdale) for one	pinboy3niner	Jan 2013	#121
Home of Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart.	klook	Feb 2013	#191
Kern County is a big one	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#127
Thank you all	lunasun	Jan 2013	#135
If you travel up the I-5 in California you are in the	Cleita	Feb 2013	#266
"No open carry or concealed weapons on premises."	Politicalboi	Jan 2013	#71
Only the owner gets to make the call	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#161
The NRA will jump on the "ban". They will claim Americans have ...	wake.up.america	Jan 2013	#117
This is private property. The shop has a right to keep guns out. nt	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#151
Sorry, I failed to recognize the difference and the significance of that difference.	wake.up.america	Feb 2013	#153
NRA no longer believes that to be true.	jeff47	Feb 2013	#251
Yes, the NRA advocates a lot of crazy shit. nt	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#268
glad nobody else got hurt , and this is the guy who is going to save the day ?	JI7	Jan 2013	#10
Here's a news link	BlueStreak	Jan 2013	#12
Wow, that was a fast post on the Register Guard site, thanks for posting the link.	Nika	Jan 2013	#17
I'm glad no one else got hit by accident!	Lone_Star_Dem	Jan 2013	#14
What the hell?? Was he masturbating with his gun?	LiberalFighter	Jan 2013	#15
I can explain why, even if I can't speak to the reasonableness of what he was doing.	AtheistCrusader	Jan 2013	#53
The other half: he was stupid and very lucky	arcane1	Jan 2013	#113
I fear in that case	AtheistCrusader	Feb 2013	#157
I don't think he learned anything, just because of that	Scootaloo	Feb 2013	#261
he might even be charged with a crime for that.	AtheistCrusader	Feb 2013	#262
One more responsible gun owner	malaise	Jan 2013	#16
The real impact of Newtown is that many people are learing just how pervasive shootings are	BlueStreak	Jan 2013	#22
Because the public have had enough	malaise	Jan 2013	#55
It wasn't until Newtown that I realized how much the NRA stopped gun research.	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#163
They had to.	BlueStreak	Feb 2013	#204
This message was self-deleted by its author	Earth_First	Jan 2013	#51
Thaaaaaat's a shame	alcibiades_mystery	Jan 2013	#18
Ever notice that sometimes shit just floats to the top? nt	jmg257	Jan 2013	#19
Barney Fife, here to protect you!	Curmudgeoness	Jan 2013	#23
It rattled me pretty good. Which is why I had to leave the scene while the ambulance were dealing...	Nika	Jan 2013	#27
"we heard a loud gunshot and a scream from the loo"	Liberal_in_LA	Jan 2013	#25
You can start a novel with first lines like that!	Coyotl	Jan 2013	#82
lol. yep	Liberal_in_LA	Jan 2013	#122
Another perfect example of how owning a gun keeps you safe! LOL	MindandSoul	Jan 2013	#26
Didn't have the hammer on an empty chamber . . .	another_liberal	Jan 2013	#28
Yeah, I think so. nt	Deep13	Jan 2013	#31
The guy is real macho and covered with tattoos, and talks about the Kenyan usurper when he talks ...	Nika	Jan 2013	#35
This might . . .	another_liberal	Jan 2013	#45
Scars have more character than tattoos--Andre Codrescu	Kolesar	Jan 2013	#64
His poetry is good too.	another_liberal	Jan 2013	#100
He was at a convention I went to and was a kick to listen to	Hekate	Jan 2013	#105
LOL. "the big cavernous chamber in his head quite empty.'	PA Democrat	Feb 2013	#206
A old high school friend of mine has shot himself in the leg twice.	onehandle	Jan 2013	#32
There are lots in the gun culture just like this- non-law abiding, stupid, cowboy, dangerous, etc.	Hoyt	Jan 2013	#33
Then we would have a lot more injuries...your claim is specious	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#36
Somebody hasn't been paying attention	BlueStreak	Jan 2013	#99
I have been following those numbers well before Newtown	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#124
bwahahahahaha!!	frylock	Jan 2013	#115
If there were 1000 times more, it still wouldn't be enough for gunners to give em up.	Hoyt	Jan 2013	#119
More wishing injuries and death on those you disagree with?	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#125
Those who accumulate, promote, and profit from guns care little for anyone but their guns.	Hoyt	Feb 2013	#152
Thank you for confirming it	ProgressiveProfessor	Feb 2013	#158
Straw Man.	Ikonoklast	Feb 2013	#196
That's all he's got. nt	SunSeeker	Feb 2013	#246
Idiot!	NoPasaran	Jan 2013	#37
We had one on Sunday	Mnpaul	Jan 2013	#38
Relieved to hear you are ok. n/t	Helen Reddy	Jan 2013	#39
He just fucking shot himself...	tularetom	Jan 2013	#41
I could only say one thing to this man	sarisataka	Jan 2013	#42
Now the OC militia will be out in force	TheCowsCameHome	Jan 2013	#43
I hope he wiped himself first.	formercia	Jan 2013	#44
we wear gloves and disposable gowns	irisblue	Feb 2013	#242
Luckily, he only shot himself this time. Unluckily, he only got his leg. nt	valerief	Jan 2013	#46
If only some good guys carrying guns had been there!	DLnyc	Jan 2013	#47
LOL! Agree with you, but that was spit on the monitor good...	freshwest	Jan 2013	#109
yeah, sorry, funny in a sick kind of way, I guess.	DLnyc	Feb 2013	#143
It did fit the rootin' tootin' six gun shootin' mentality of the shootee in the OP.	freshwest	Feb 2013	#145
Normally I ignore gun threads, but now I embrace them.	longship	Jan 2013	#48
A "gunsel" is actually the bottom half of a prison romance.	IveWornAHundredPants	Jan 2013	#68
Apparently not in 1930s-1950s detective fiction	Hekate	Jan 2013	#114
When Chandler used it in the Maltese Falcon	SwankyXomb	Feb 2013	#247
ooooo, my innocence has been violated!	Hekate	Feb 2013	#249
Businesses should be held responsible	Politicalboi	Jan 2013	#49
word	frylock	Jan 2013	#118
Would you agree with the obvious corollary	ProgressiveProfessor	Jan 2013	#126
A perfectly proper position for a point.	StrictlyRockers	Feb 2013	#172
What the fuck?	harmonicon	Feb 2013	#175
Thankfully there were no victims in this shooting.	obxhead	Jan 2013	#52
what a moron expecting you guys to hide his pistol too! WTH did he think he would tell police?	bettyellen	Jan 2013	#56
Frankly, thinking is not a process I associate with him.	Nika	Jan 2013	#59
He'll have a little more to think about...	pinboy3niner	Jan 2013	#63
You said it best: what a loser and an idiot!	arthritisR_US	Jan 2013	#62
Open carry advocate with an open wound opens up on himself. I'll keep an open mind.	Bucky	Jan 2013	#65
Indra's should post a sign	Hard Assets	Jan 2013	#66
This is the new policy at Indra's as a matter of fact. No guns at all are allowed there.	Nika	Jan 2013	#69
"Any guns, No shirt, No shoes, No service"	BlueStreak	Jan 2013	#97
If only his leg had been better armed to defend itself	Coyotl	Jan 2013	#72
So.....	Ian Iam	Jan 2013	#75
I was here for the shooting and aftermath, but I left the premises and took a walk during the time	Nika	Jan 2013	#84
Still there per last post.	Coyotl	Jan 2013	#85
OMG	libodem	Jan 2013	#76
I love it!	UnrepentantLiberal	Jan 2013	#77
GunNUT Has Trouble Negotiating the Toilet..Shoots Self	triplepoint	Jan 2013	#88
Yep, this happened in downtown where we have a Kesey square	Nika	Jan 2013	#94
LOL	ProudToBeBlueInRhody	Jan 2013	#90
Hey, don't mock this HERO	pinboy3niner	Jan 2013	#108
He is indeed a legend in his own mind.	Nika	Feb 2013	#235
Oddly, that's not surprising	pinboy3niner	Feb 2013	#238
Yes - also the "Guns don't 'go off'..." thing. (n/t)	klook	Feb 2013	#263
Anything that can ricochet is a bad thing. Someone else could have been killed. n/t	vaberella	Jan 2013	#95
Small wonder he didn't bleed to death.	Aristus	Jan 2013	#96
Can't these people be sued?	Motown_Johnny	Jan 2013	#98
If it had struck something else... he might of needed a bigger gun!! (nt)	OneTenthofOnePercent	Jan 2013	#102
It seems like I keep reading this story over and over again.	Kalidurga	Jan 2013	#104
Sounds like he's more of an "open casket" activist	Zambero	Jan 2013	#106
keep up the good work, 2A activists!	frylock	Jan 2013	#107
Was he vigorously stroking his piece when it went off? eom	MyNameGoesHere	Jan 2013	#128
LOL!	City Lights	Jan 2013	#131
LOL, the stupidity just makes me have to laugh. nt	Raine	Jan 2013	#129
This prick should have to pay back the taxpayer $$$ that paid the police and paramedics.	TroglodyteScholar	Jan 2013	#132
-_-	JaneyVee	Jan 2013	#136
I am so glad you're alright. nt	Claybrains	Jan 2013	#137
And of course the worthless fucker got everybody else involved in his fucked up shit	NBachers	Jan 2013	#141
Thankfully no one else was hurt.	Chorophyll	Feb 2013	#144
was he wearing clean underwear?	snooper2	Feb 2013	#146
Not any more. nt	pinboy3niner	Feb 2013	#150
his cut off clothes, including his jockey shorts were in the plastic bag the fireman secured in the	Nika	Feb 2013	#237
Nice shootin', Tex!	Hulk	Feb 2013	#148
The only person who can stop a dumbass with a gun...	rateyes	Feb 2013	#149
All I can say is ...	jimlup	Feb 2013	#165
Obviously, we need MORE guns in bathrooms, lucky he didn't shoot his	grahamhgreen	Feb 2013	#168
Every bathroom stall should have an armed police guard posted.	harmonicon	Feb 2013	#176
shot himself	timdog44	Feb 2013	#178
How long before one of these idiots accidentally hurts or kills an innocent person?	drm604	Feb 2013	#181
Already happens, just doesn't make national news.	JHB	Feb 2013	#183
Lucky	Squaredeal	Feb 2013	#184
Message auto-removed	PointZeroZeroOne	Feb 2013	#185
Perhaps you can ask the cafe to post "no gun" signs to discourage	IdaBriggs	Feb 2013	#186
Oh wow.	MynameisBlarney	Feb 2013	#188
It's called "thinning the herd". /nt	mwb970	Feb 2013	#189
Too bad he didn't shoot his balls off . . .	MrModerate	Feb 2013	#190
New meaning for the phrase "Gun Nuts" :) (n/t)	klook	Feb 2013	#267
(Rimshot!) n/t	MrModerate	Feb 2013	#275
another musical?	Phil1934	Feb 2013	#192
Posted to BuzzFlash	WilliamPitt	Feb 2013	#197
All I can do is giggle.	City Lights	Feb 2013	#199
A sampling of "accidentally shot" headlines posted over the last 24 hours	mainer	Feb 2013	#201
I was all ready to call BS on this one	AngryAmish	Feb 2013	#207
It's made it to "weird news" so you know this guy is going to live in shame.	Spitfire of ATJ	Feb 2013	#222
Ladies, prepare to find a wet toilet seat with this kind of aim.	Spitfire of ATJ	Feb 2013	#208
Dumbass	jpak	Feb 2013	#210
He took a leak. Or an ammo dump.	Blue Owl	Feb 2013	#211
I wonder what will happen when one of those idiots with assault rifles on their backs,...	Crowman1979	Feb 2013	#212
If only his leg had a gun...	redqueen	Feb 2013	#214
He Needs Another Gun To Protect Himself From His Gun!	Skraxx	Feb 2013	#216
Who's paying for ER care?	Ubix	Feb 2013	#226
This is a good question, as he is fairly well indigent as he is unemployed.	Nika	Feb 2013	#236
Average cost to treat a gunshot wound was $38,000 according to a 2006 study.	PA Democrat	Feb 2013	#241
And he is an Obama hater and a health care plan foe too. Which makes this ironic.	Nika	Feb 2013	#283
Open Carry? (look for the laser dot)	padruig	Feb 2013	#227
This guy had been in the 101st Division in the Army and is an Iraqi vet.	Nika	Feb 2013	#232
Do you feel safe in Portland?	lebkuchen	Feb 2013	#259
Most times, most places I do in PDX. However, at a light rail stop I was alone with a group of...	Nika	Feb 2013	#281
I'd consider moving back to the US to a place like Oregon, but the open conceal law	lebkuchen	Feb 2013	#290
Thanks, I try hard to stay safe. I will note that as a young 7 Eleven clerk I was held up five times	Nika	Feb 2013	#291
open carry	SemperEadem	Feb 2013	#228
The bullet is in the ceiling after going through the wall to the room three of us were in.	Nika	Feb 2013	#230
I'm glad that you and other patrons were not hurt	SemperEadem	Feb 2013	#258
Well put, thank you.	Nika	Feb 2013	#282
The good thing about open carry is those danged weapons never get fired	indepat	Feb 2013	#245
We had an "accidental" shooting where I live on Sunday	pinboy3niner	Feb 2013	#248
This incident has an all too familiar ring	indepat	Feb 2013	#256
Oh, yeah! He's just the kind of guy I want around when trouble starts.	Buzz Clik	Feb 2013	#252
Was it this guy?	liberal N proud	Feb 2013	#254
Stupid is as stupid does :)	Blue4Texas	Feb 2013	#255
It was common practice in the old west to lower your hammer on an empty chamber so as not to shoot	doc03	Feb 2013	#257
I heard that six bullets might not be enough! nt	Walk away	Feb 2013	#274
Holy Moly! that sounds so NOT Eugene OR.	99th_Monkey	Feb 2013	#260
Tell me about it. I have been an environmental activist many years here and done many tree sits and	Nika	Feb 2013	#284
the phrase "poetic justice" comes to mind	99th_Monkey	Feb 2013	#288
That is hysterical- and truly is a good sign of how inept most of these gun rights folks are. nt	cecilfirefox	Feb 2013	#264
At least he has a good excuse...	pinboy3niner	Feb 2013	#269
Quick quiz. What flavor turntable is that.....	wandy	Feb 2013	#285
Oh, man, you got me there	pinboy3niner	Feb 2013	#286
Alert the Creationists! Proof positive of Evolution!	Walk away	Feb 2013	#273
I just wanna say...THIS gets my thread of the night VOTE!	MrMickeysMom	Feb 2013	#276
I almost find myself wondering if he wasn't REALLY up to no good here ...	brett_jv	Feb 2013	#280
Barney Fife?	Rhiannon12866	Feb 2013	#287
Barney wouldn't have an accidental discharge	pinboy3niner	Feb 2013	#289

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