General Discussion

dogman

(6,073 posts)

31. I was not refering to insurers.

Fri Jan 25, 2013, 03:37 PM

Jan 2013

My post mentions providers, like doctors and nurses. Most group health plans aren't there yet. It seems like this may change that. Of course illegal drugs and misused OTC drugs could come in to play. In Chicago the city is cracking down on high caffeine drinks. Maybe that will be another substance to test for.

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New healthcare law could penalize older smokers up to $4,250 per year [View all] banned from Kos Jan 2013 OP

As a person that smoked for 8-9 years myself, I agree with this in principle. phleshdef Jan 2013 #1

Except it does not apply to obesity and other factors. dogman Jan 2013 #4

I'm pretty sure obesity can drive your premiums up already. phleshdef Jan 2013 #5

Not under the ACA, just smoking. dogman Jan 2013 #7

Before the ACA, they could be denied insurance entirely. phleshdef Jan 2013 #16

For anything. dogman Jan 2013 #28

That sounds familiar Confusious Jan 2013 #201

Obesity can be caused by genetic factors and other illnesses, pnwmom Jan 2013 #24

And addiction is not an illness? dogman Jan 2013 #27

Not the same and you know it. Food is needed for nutrition, pnwmom Jan 2013 #60

That's not how it works and you know it. dogman Jan 2013 #64

It's not an instinct. There's nothing about being human that makes people need to smoke. pnwmom Jan 2013 #131

not if they have to pay an extra $4000 on top of the regular premium, it won't. first, that's HiPointDem Jan 2013 #214

They do have the option of quitting, and paying the same rate as anybody else -- pnwmom Jan 2013 #217

then the pricing scheme makes no sense at all, since the highest rates are charged to older HiPointDem Jan 2013 #218

It makes sense to me because it encourages people to stop before it's too late, pnwmom Jan 2013 #220

i thought it was an insurance program, not a smoking cessation incentive. which is it? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #221

It's both. It's an insurance program that takes smoking risk into account, pnwmom Jan 2013 #222

or neither. because you've already admitted it's allocating risk & cost incorrectly, & the HiPointDem Jan 2013 #223

As you say, Medicare provided equally for everyone, whether they were fat, thin, drug addicts, HiPointDem Jan 2013 #207

I've always considered empathy to be a major difference between GOP & Dems dogman Jan 2013 #232

You left out the genetic part Special Agent Oso Jan 2013 #87

See post #64 dogman Jan 2013 #90

There is NOTHING even close to smoking dmallind Jan 2013 #30

So we can only concern ourselves with #1? dogman Jan 2013 #35

Yes, but how much to smokers 'cost' the HC system vs. the obese? beaglelover Jan 2013 #39

Late honey Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #53

Obesity does cost the system more. phleshdef Jan 2013 #55

I smoke. I cost the healthcare system NOTHING. have been paying for insurance for 55 years. robinlynne Jan 2013 #120

It disgusts me, too. Jack Sprat Jan 2013 #125

being a smoker isn't a condition TorchTheWitch Jan 2013 #197

"including zero non-obese" jberryhill Jan 2013 #51

Where's the link to your source? Those nos. don't make sense. Also, deaths don't matter. Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #127

That's usually because laundry_queen Jan 2013 #136

I've never known someone morbidly obese who became slim naturally in older years. Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #171

No need to school me about metabolic syndrome laundry_queen Jan 2013 #173

No need to school me in metabolic syndrome. I've done the research. Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #180

And you lack empathy. nt laundry_queen Jan 2013 #195

Obese Workers Have Even Higher Health Costs than Smokers, Study Finds HiPointDem Jan 2013 #215

Obesity already causes higher premiums. nt bluestate10 Jan 2013 #97

Read the link in the OP. dogman Jan 2013 #114

actually smoking is way worse than obesity dsc Jan 2013 #126

actually not. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #211

That doesn't make sense to me. I wonder why? nt Honeycombe8 Jan 2013 #172

It's just another tax on the poor, the economic group most likely to smoke. They're already HiPointDem Jan 2013 #42

If they are poor, then they qualify for Medicaid and thus this is irrelevant. phleshdef Jan 2013 #43

By 'poor' I mean the lower classes, not just the indigent. No, the lower working class are not HiPointDem Jan 2013 #45

Whatever. If people engage in giving themselves an easily preventable condition for no good reason.. phleshdef Jan 2013 #48

The higher your income, the longer you live & the more you use healthcare & the bigger the HiPointDem Jan 2013 #49

You just made that up and you are wrong. phleshdef Jan 2013 #52

medicare isn't medicaid. low-income people die younger & collect less on medicare. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #54

You are just twisting yourself in knots now. phleshdef Jan 2013 #57

Do I? "Smokers and the obese cheaper to care for, study shows" HiPointDem Jan 2013 #76

Misleading, dated and incorrect. phleshdef Jan 2013 #140

lol. your 'rebuttal' study isn't about lifetime costs. and it also claims that obesity is even HiPointDem Jan 2013 #141

Its about annual costs, which is more palpable than life expectancy speculation. phleshdef Jan 2013 #198

it's not *palpable* at all, as for *bigoted bullshit,* i've had a crawful of bigoted bullshit from HiPointDem Jan 2013 #200

Income has NOTHING to do with that kind of denigration. phleshdef Jan 2013 #203

The life expectancy differences are AN ACTUARIAL CERTAINTY, proven statistically in multiple HiPointDem Jan 2013 #205

Its a certainty until its not a certainty. That "certainty" can easily change. phleshdef Jan 2013 #208

i'm talking about the *actuarial certainty* that low-income people as a *class* die younger. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #212

Thank-you! robinlynne Jan 2013 #175

You are high and mighty. You would remove my health care? robinlynne Jan 2013 #121

No. Where the hell did I say that? phleshdef Jan 2013 #138

my income is 15,000. exactly enough for rent and health insurance, without food. I am robinlynne Jan 2013 #142

You obviously didn't read the stuff I actually posted. phleshdef Jan 2013 #154

You said I should pay more for health insurance because I smoke. I cant pay a penny more. robinlynne Jan 2013 #179

Christ. Calm yourself. Getting all fumey doesn't help your argument at all. phleshdef Jan 2013 #199

It's actually paying MORE THAN THREE TIMES what the supposed 'extra cost' is (about $1200K/year, on HiPointDem Jan 2013 #216

Everyone who willfully introduces longterm lifestyle risks does not have to pay more. robinlynne Jan 2013 #231

Segmenting insurance markets by risk cuts across that risk-spreading benefit in the interest of prof Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #58

I don't agree, and I am not a smoker. This is discrimination pure and simple. What if this was still_one Jan 2013 #105

It is very unfair. They do not do it for Medicare. Also, I am not a still_one Jan 2013 #106

So patients will be required to lie to their healthcare providers dogman Jan 2013 #2

Are those the only two options? cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #6

Death Downwinder Jan 2013 #8

If they continue to smoke. dogman Jan 2013 #11

You don't expect people to actually quit smoking, do you? Freddie Stubbs Jan 2013 #92

Don't many quit smoking when the price gets too high? No Vested Interest Jan 2013 #128

They'll lie to their insurance providers, and that's fraud. kestrel91316 Jan 2013 #17

Sounds like the GOP healthcare plan. dogman Jan 2013 #19

Actually, Obamacare is an improvement for smokers and offers more protections for them CreekDog Jan 2013 #73

Except there are a large number of people who are not currently denied. dogman Jan 2013 #81

you don't know their costs will be going up CreekDog Jan 2013 #84

I guess it is all an assumption. dogman Jan 2013 #88

it doesn't single out anybody CreekDog Jan 2013 #89

For someone who wrote about my posts, it is obvious you dogman Jan 2013 #91

they aren't less than human CreekDog Jan 2013 #93

nt dogman Jan 2013 #95

that's a lie and you know it because you stated the opposite just a couple posts ago CreekDog Jan 2013 #100

LOL I see you edited your post --because you said something ridiculous CreekDog Jan 2013 #103

No bullshit, if the game is fuck you to the "undesirables" TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #230

All it guarantees is that they pay more. dogman Jan 2013 #96

you are lying about the law again CreekDog Jan 2013 #104

The fact that it is left to the insurance companies tells me it does. dogman Jan 2013 #109

This message was self-deleted by its author dogman Jan 2013 #101

Would quiting solve the problem? creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #182

why are you spreading falsehoods about Obamacare? CreekDog Jan 2013 #184

I read the article creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #186

if you quit you're not a smoker, get it? CreekDog Jan 2013 #187

Somebody downthread said the creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #188

the law is here: CreekDog Jan 2013 #190

the rules don't say they can charge former smokers more CreekDog Jan 2013 #189

They won't have to lie loyalsister Jan 2013 #178

Oh wait. . . . Those insurers have insidious little ways of finding out if one is lying. . . BigDemVoter Jan 2013 #23

I was not refering to insurers. dogman Jan 2013 #31

As if the only way to get nicotine is to smoke. Mariana Jan 2013 #41

how much do you want to bet that people will be tested for nicotine just as they are tested HiPointDem Jan 2013 #46

They test for nicotine for life insurance policies. Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #56

i'm pretty sure they already test for nicotine, period. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #69

You could be correct... Sekhmets Daughter Jan 2013 #71

which would not tell you if someone smokes or not. only if they did. robinlynne Jan 2013 #143

'if they did' when the blood was drawn is basically 'that they do'. the percent of people who have HiPointDem Jan 2013 #147

nictoine patches, nicotine gum, e-cigs are everywhere. non smokers all. robinlynne Jan 2013 #150

it really doesn't matter, does it? fairness is beside the point. The point is to discipline and HiPointDem Jan 2013 #152

My point is nicotine does not a smoker make. Almost all ex smokers use nicotine. robinlynne Jan 2013 #176

Another reason to quit. GeorgeGist Jan 2013 #3

Indeed. Earth_First Jan 2013 #10

Great for you. dogman Jan 2013 #12

I spoke at great lengths about the possible side effects wih my prescribing physician.. Earth_First Jan 2013 #13

If it makes you feel better, Kurt Vonnegut described smoking as. . . Journeyman Jan 2013 #15

I quit around 40 years ago. dogman Jan 2013 #22

We will pay the penalty or we will quit smoking LanternWaste Jan 2013 #50

This is where single payer makes SO much more sense. laundry_queen Jan 2013 #137

Depending on income, it would remove our chance of having health care. robinlynne Jan 2013 #145

My doctor refused to give prescribe it, citing potential side effects. Incitatus Jan 2013 #72

exactly. robinlynne Jan 2013 #144

I quit on Chantix as well in 2007 SouthernDonkey Jan 2013 #193

it gave my neighbor heart/lung problems. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #47

I quit about 2 years ago cold turkey and I feel a hell of a lot better. Incitatus Jan 2013 #70

Exactly. nt bluestate10 Jan 2013 #99

OMG. shill baby shill... Jan 2013 #183

it's like a thousand little nails datasuspect Jan 2013 #9

You wouldn't be alone. A lot of people starting to think the same way. Unfortunately we DogPawsBiscuitsNGrav Jan 2013 #18

And under the provisions of the ACA, individual states have the right to lower or change that number Ikonoklast Jan 2013 #14

Smoking is expensive in Europe and Canada too RandiFan1290 Jan 2013 #20

tough choice, spend $$ on your drug addiction or health care nt msongs Jan 2013 #21

Are smokers there excluded from healthcare? dogman Jan 2013 #26

They are not excluded RandiFan1290 Jan 2013 #32

Yes laundry_queen Jan 2013 #139

Smokers have always been charged higher premiums. This puts a cap on that. n/t pnwmom Jan 2013 #25

What does a cap do for a poor person? dogman Jan 2013 #33

The health care law ProSense Jan 2013 #34

Good dogman Jan 2013 #36

Medicaid has been expanded for poor people pnwmom Jan 2013 #37

That's their fault. nt geek tragedy Jan 2013 #78

Your right, we should only help perfect people. dogman Jan 2013 #85

No. Charging smokers more is perfectly logical. geek tragedy Jan 2013 #86

Does Medicare charge smokers more? dogman Jan 2013 #94

Smoking is different. It is (a) 100% voluntary and (b) 100% guaranteed to lead to higher geek tragedy Jan 2013 #115

So smokers are the only evil people seeking healthcare? dogman Jan 2013 #116

Never said that. Only that they choose to make themselves less healthy and more expensive geek tragedy Jan 2013 #119

Wasn't thinking of the smoker's politics. dogman Jan 2013 #122

Empathetic is one thing. Terrible public policy is another. geek tragedy Jan 2013 #123

The tobacco industry is not interested in stopping smoking dogman Jan 2013 #124

Its not that voluntary creeksneakers2 Jan 2013 #185

what about people who drink? what about people who take drugs? robinlynne Jan 2013 #146

The causal link is nowhere near as strong. nt geek tragedy Jan 2013 #163

what? robinlynne Jan 2013 #181

What about all the money the states got from tobacco companies to offset the cost of healthcare? okaawhatever Jan 2013 #29

Alcohol is more complicated because there are some health benefits pnwmom Jan 2013 #38

What about other highly addictive substances 4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #40

Excellent question! Wind Dancer Jan 2013 #74

Thank You 4Q2u2 Jan 2013 #98

Who would admit to illegal drug use? dkf Jan 2013 #204

I have done everything I can to create for my patients a disincentive for smoking. Aristus Jan 2013 #44

Are you not more concerned that your patients are incentivised to lie to you? dogman Jan 2013 #61

Most of my patients who smoke are pretty up-front about it. Aristus Jan 2013 #63

If they say they don't, does that mean you will indicate otherwise? dogman Jan 2013 #65

Medical charts include spaces for subjective information, i.e.: "I don't smoke", as well Aristus Jan 2013 #66

Seems like this could be a pain for you if this issue blows up. dogman Jan 2013 #79

I'll roll with it. Aristus Jan 2013 #82

You know, there might have been something to all the bitching the right was doing. MrSlayer Jan 2013 #59

I think you might be right. Skip Intro Jan 2013 #130

This is reality: the choices made by smokers are expensive for the society flamingdem Jan 2013 #62

oh really? We are the reason health care costs so much/ And yet europeans smoke more and health care robinlynne Jan 2013 #148

Second hand smoke alone is hurting more than just the smoker flamingdem Jan 2013 #157

changing the subject? Yes I deny it. my stepfather was the oncology researcher who robinlynne Jan 2013 #174

Stop smoking. RedCappedBandit Jan 2013 #67

No baby, I love the way your ass drags across the floor ! RagAss Jan 2013 #68

This is a good idea IMO bluestater1966fgs Jan 2013 #75

Good. Why should we subsidize their self-pollution? Nt geek tragedy Jan 2013 #77

Not new at all spedtr90 Jan 2013 #80

Good. If you wanna fill everyone else's nose with your smoke... OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #83

I'm all for it if it discourages tobacco addiction.... mike_c Jan 2013 #102

If only. dogman Jan 2013 #111

I have an answer: Impose a National Sales Tax on Cigarettes Yavin4 Jan 2013 #107

The price of cigarettes in Texas is around $50 a carton and one carton a week is $2600 a year. Thinkingabout Jan 2013 #112

Then NY taxes them. dogman Jan 2013 #117

States can impose their own sales taxes if they want Yavin4 Jan 2013 #132

Is this just for tobacco products Revanchist Jan 2013 #108

I made the point upthread that simply testing for nicotine Mariana Jan 2013 #135

Well, then the smokers better grow some will power and quit cold-turkey. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #160

What smokers are you talking about? Mariana Jan 2013 #169

Thank you for proving JoeyT Jan 2013 #191

we don't have this craziness riverbendviewgal Jan 2013 #110

Cheaper life and health policies for non-smokers are enforceable. If the health problem or death libdem4life Jan 2013 #113

This is idffernt LOWer premiums for some people, as opposed to raising premiums for others. robinlynne Jan 2013 #149

Like I said, I could understand health, but apparently smokers have some relevance to auto insurance libdem4life Jan 2013 #151

Weird, I haven't heard of it with auto insurance. Mariana Jan 2013 #156

I've had AAA for years and use their Road Service, but nothing else. libdem4life Jan 2013 #159

I smoked 22 years...this is a reasonable thing alcibiades_mystery Jan 2013 #118

Amen! +1000 SouthernDonkey Jan 2013 #194

This is not about decreasing smoking, but protecting profits. eom TransitJohn Jan 2013 #129

Strange. BlueCheese Jan 2013 #133

The Future of Healthcare Will Be About Prevention Yavin4 Jan 2013 #134

death is not preventable. if one thing doesn't get you, the other thing will. it's actually HiPointDem Jan 2013 #153

Highly Unhealthy Lifestyles Costs A Lot of Money to Treat Yavin4 Jan 2013 #158

hmm, how to prevent old age....? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #161

You're Being Obtuse n/t Yavin4 Jan 2013 #164

actually not, since the bulk of medical costs are incurred in the last couple years of life. Of HiPointDem Jan 2013 #165

Healt Care Costs Are Skyrocketing Because People Seek Last Minute Treatment Yavin4 Jan 2013 #166

baloney. smoking rates peaked for men in the 40s/50s, with 67 percent of men smoking. for women, HiPointDem Jan 2013 #168

Thank-you. As a smoker, I doubt I will ever need a transplant. THAT is expensive! robinlynne Jan 2013 #177

I don't smoke, I never have customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #155

yes, & yes. it's a very slippery slope & it's so weird to see all the democrats lining up to cheer. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #162

I suspect a lot of them are ex-smokers leftstreet Jan 2013 #167

marijuana causes lung disease & increases health care costs. just off yourself now & decrease HiPointDem Jan 2013 #170

I agree, but it's also the money laundry_queen Jan 2013 #196

Great observation customerserviceguy Jan 2013 #206

I asked my Doctor for a prescription for Chantix.............his answer mrmpa Jan 2013 #192

The 6-figure medical bill my mom racked up from Emphysema justifies it. TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #202

considering that a simple broken leg can rack up a five-figure bill and that there are plenty of HiPointDem Jan 2013 #219

Perhaps his habits contributed to his wifes death? TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #224

i doubt it. colon cancer, & she didn't allow smoking in the house. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #225

We have no idea what really went on in that household. nt TheBlackAdder Jan 2013 #227

uh, I have a very good idea what went on, since i knew them. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #228

Jesus H. Tapdancing Christ sylvi Jan 2013 #209

Thank you. If this is any indication, we're well on our way to 100% individualized, for profit HiPointDem Jan 2013 #213

So, People Shouldn't be Forced to Wear Seat Belts or Motorcycle Helmets Either? Yavin4 Jan 2013 #226

Good! xoom Jan 2013 #210

This is how INSURANCE works--"actuarial principles". We should've enacted HEALTHCARE, instead. nt Romulox Jan 2013 #229