General Discussion

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)

78. True, but you don't get to unilaterally decree an inherent right a "public menace"

Sun Jan 13, 2013, 02:41 PM

Jan 2013

Nor can you strip people of their rights without due process.

Self-defense is not a privilege, it is a right and you admit as much in your argument. The thing that makes a public meance a public menace is their threat to the lives of others. Since the authorities cannot be a preventative force -- even if the fantasy of an absolute ban and compulsory turn-in became reality -- then individuals are still their own first, best hope.

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

78 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

The most offensive position of the NRA [View all] cleveramerican Jan 2013 OP

Most progressives oppose the way the watchlist is operated, do you support it? ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #1

If you can't buy plane ticket, you shouldn't have a gun cleveramerican Jan 2013 #4

I have mixed feelings...if it was well vetted and had reasonable appeal options, I could support it ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #10

IIRC Ted Kennedy was on that list. beevul Jan 2013 #2

I do cleveramerican Jan 2013 #5

Its not perfection, its the process which is pure executive branch fiat ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #12

if we can't agree that suspected TERRORISTS shouldn't have guns...... cleveramerican Jan 2013 #14

I agree with that. I think that their needs to be some fairness in the appeal of that designation ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #18

I am suspicious of " independent" cleveramerican Jan 2013 #26

I think it should be done by the Judicial branch at least ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2013 #48

You answering "I do" to Ted Kennedy on a terror watch list makes anything you say worthless. Logical Jan 2013 #66

In general, NRA asks that there be due process involved with becoming prohibited aikoaiko Jan 2013 #3

which is odd, because they completely ignore due process when it comes to selling guns farminator3000 Jan 2013 #6

What I mean is that before someone is prohibited they are told of the action that will make them... aikoaiko Jan 2013 #22

there could be a seperate federal 'gun owner' blacklist, and you could get a chance to appeal when farminator3000 Jan 2013 #33

Due process is for the government taking away rights, not for citizens using their inherent rights Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2013 #47

you don't have the right to be a public menace farminator3000 Jan 2013 #56

True, but you don't get to unilaterally decree an inherent right a "public menace" Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2013 #78

Does anyone really care what NRA "asks." They are a bunch of right wing bigots. Hoyt Jan 2013 #7

So you oppose due process since the NRA supports it? Really? nt hack89 Jan 2013 #11

And gun cultists hide behind due process. Hoyt Jan 2013 #13

So due process is over rated? Overused? Not needed? hack89 Jan 2013 #15

being totally against anything the NRA says is a perfectly sane thing to do farminator3000 Jan 2013 #37

So what do you replace due process with if it is completly insane? hack89 Jan 2013 #38

due process is fine, it is the NRA which is insane. i would replace the NRA with sane people if i farminator3000 Jan 2013 #42

So those 500 don't deserve due process? hack89 Jan 2013 #45

of course not. it isn't logical. "you are on the list. we are watching you" makes the list pointless farminator3000 Jan 2013 #52

So then don't use that list to restrict civil liberties hack89 Jan 2013 #63

people who are dangerous don't get liberties. safety of hundreds comes before 1 person's privilege farminator3000 Jan 2013 #67

And secret government lists are the best way to determine if someone is dangerous? hack89 Jan 2013 #70

what don't you understand about "the list doesn't work if it isn't a secret"? farminator3000 Jan 2013 #72

So as soon as someone is denied the right to buy a gun hack89 Jan 2013 #74

i really don't care about the list, except that it doesn't work for stopping illegal guns farminator3000 Jan 2013 #75

I don't know -- ask the OP who brought up the issue of NRA positions aikoaiko Jan 2013 #24

Gun control always brings out the closet authoritarians. hack89 Jan 2013 #8

gun control is a poisoned term cleveramerican Jan 2013 #17

You reward responsible users and punish irresponsible users. hack89 Jan 2013 #28

getting to keep a gun that is frivolous to the majority of people is your reward farminator3000 Jan 2013 #35

Do you know how people get on that list? hack89 Jan 2013 #41

i don't see it as an issue with 500 US citizens in total on said list farminator3000 Jan 2013 #43

So have the governement bring their evidence to court hack89 Jan 2013 #46

i don't believe the constitution says anything about criminal cases being public info farminator3000 Jan 2013 #54

You have the right to face your accusers hack89 Jan 2013 #61

you also have the right to life, liberty, and happiness. not a gun. or a plane ride. farminator3000 Jan 2013 #64

So don't use the list to restrict civil liberties. hack89 Jan 2013 #69

rights are intangibles, not physical objects farminator3000 Jan 2013 #36

That has nothing to do with this sub-thread hack89 Jan 2013 #40

+1... All sorts of rights-restricting advocacy groups are festooned with closet authoritarians. nt OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #55

what exactly are you doing besides imposing your 'authority' to own any gun you want? farminator3000 Jan 2013 #57

Spending taxpayer money, too. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #65

I oppose the watchlist backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #9

Pretty sure the FBI would oppose that "sensible regulation" as well - they don't petronius Jan 2013 #16

so your in favor of.... cleveramerican Jan 2013 #20

I'm in favor of scupulous protection of civil rights and liberties, for all citizens and for petronius Jan 2013 #23

so thats a yes? cleveramerican Jan 2013 #29

I would not deny any civil right/liberty, nor any freedom, opportunity, choice, petronius Jan 2013 #34

It's not a sensible regulation at all. Look at the ACLU. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #19

all sides rigid positions have not served us well cleveramerican Jan 2013 #21

I'm not going to re-evaluate a basic civil liberty. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #32

funny that the ACLU itself doesn't think guns are a liberty... farminator3000 Jan 2013 #59

Yep. They have chosen to stay neutral. NutmegYankee Jan 2013 #73

They actually got that one right. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2013 #25

So, looking at the consensus of the above posts... Wounded Bear Jan 2013 #27

I think thats true cleveramerican Jan 2013 #30

don't forget- silencers....as wholesome, children-friendly accessories...is pretty bad, too! farminator3000 Jan 2013 #31

if you are in any way on a watch list backwoodsbob Jan 2013 #39

there's been some info released it isn't that bad farminator3000 Jan 2013 #44

Isn't that bad is no replacement for civil liberties and due process. TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #49

going on a plane or owning a gun = NOT a liberty farminator3000 Jan 2013 #60

What position should be taken other than that? TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #50

I suspect there are a lot of James Yeager types on that list AgingAmerican Jan 2013 #51

Are you f-ing serious? The Bush Terra watchlist is now a credible gov't list?!? OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #53

the list is no big deal. i really couldn't care less farminator3000 Jan 2013 #62

ACLU claims there are more than a million names on those lists. OneTenthofOnePercent Jan 2013 #68

sounds like the list is a little small to me. plus i count 25 false positives. and too many guns farminator3000 Jan 2013 #71

The NRA is offensive by definition. Zoeisright Jan 2013 #58

I find their blocking of public health research into gun violence more vile. Warren Stupidity Jan 2013 #76

And The ATF Has Been Without A Director For Six Years, Thanks To The NRA. Paladin Jan 2013 #77