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In reply to the discussion: I am watching Oliver Stone's "Untold History" and, wow, I have to say ... [View all]Confusious
(8,317 posts)79. I was hoping you would have something new to say
Not the old rehashed crap.
Berlin, don't care about. Legit target for bombing. Unless of course, you're trying to blame the United States for the actions of Russia, which would be dishonest.
Japan, all sites were legit targets, including those in the atomic bombings. They were also warned, and decided to ignore those warnings.
Dresden, I might have agreed with you, but after some study, not anymore.
Civilians have suffered during war from the beginning of time. When the barbarians sacked Rome they slaughtered men women and children. When the French stormed Spanish towns during the peninsular war the citizens inside were killed and the towns raped and pillaged.
The powers during the 19th century and the early 20th laid down ever more stringent rules about conduct during war trying to prevent these excesses but until the Geneva Convention came along there were no hard and fast "rules of war". In 1945 the Geneva Convention did not prohibit the general bombing of a town to destroy its industrial capacity.
We have to look at Dresden in the light of the morality of the time.
Some people in Dresden and elsewhere claim that the Bombing of Dresden by the RAF AND the USAAF is a war crime. In my opinion it was not. I am not in any way denying the fact that what happened in Dresden was horrific and appalling. I do deny that the men who undertook the mission have any crime to answer for.
The bombing of Dresden has been used since 1945 as a tool to beat the RAF about its conduct of "terror bombing" during WW2. The bombing of an industrialized town from the air in an attempt to destroy its industry or cause such loss of morale amongst its inhabitants that they ceased to work was NOT a crime by the Rules of War in 1945. The bombing of Coventry, London and other British Cities in 1940 and 1941 was also NOT a War Crime.
(No NAZI was convicted FOR those actions. They were convicted for OTHER actions, such as starting the war, and following orders to start the war.)
Within Europe we did not have the "industrial areas" afforded to towns in the New World. The factories were in and around the areas where the workforce lived. One side of the street would be the factory wall; the other side of the street would be the workers houses. Unfortunately this lead to what, nowadays, is called "collateral damage"
Dresden burned so heavily for several reasons.
It was a medieval city with many wooden buildings.
There had been a dry winter in the region which meant many buildings were tinderboxes.
The population were not used to air raids and did not therefore have the knowledge that you need to put incendiaries out quickly
The raid had little opposition because its Anti aircraft defence had been taken away by the Germans for use on the Eastern front. Therefore the bombers were able to put their loads in a concentrated space with little or no opposition.
Dresden was not "chosen for destruction". This was a raid on an industrial centre which went exactly right with horrifying consequences due to many circumstances some of which I have listed above.
Why did so many people die?
The 35000 people that died (absolute top number using all available, reliable sources) did so because of the reasons above and the fact that Dresden's Air Raid Precautions were appallingly bad. There were few, if any, properly constructed public shelters despite money having been allocated for them which was spent by the local burghers on Air Raid shelters for their homes in the suburbs.
People therefore sheltered in basements of houses which, due to the firestorm above filled with noxious fumes and killed the occupants before the houses collapsed onto them and burned their corpses.
Many people have claimed in the last 62 years that Dresden was a quiet peaceable town going about its business and waiting for the war to end. Read the paragraphs below which are taken from research by myself and many others for the truth about "quiet, peaceable, nothing to do with the war" Dresden.
In early 1945 the war was far from over. The Allies were still camped outside the borders of Germany, V2 rockets were still falling. The Allies had just fought the battle of the Bulge where the supposedly defeated Germans suddenly punched a huge hole in the Allied lines, German Rocket and Jet aircraft were coming off the production lines and proceeding to rip the hell out of the allied air fleets.
It was an operation undertaken due to many reasons.
1. A request from the Russians at the Yalta conference in February
1945. General Antonov "We want the Dresden railway junction bombed"
Meeting between the Chiefs of staff as reported by an interpreter. Records kept at the Public Records office in Kew
2. It was a German base of operations against Marshall Koniev`s left flank as he advanced into Germany. (See above)
Captured German High Command documents from Berlin in 1945 state that "Dresden is to be fortified as a military strongpoint, to be held at all costs." These statements are also backed up by decrypts from Ultra at Bletchley Park.
3. Munitions storage in the old Dresden Arsenal.
4. Troop reinforcement and transport centre shifting an average 28
troop trains through the marshalling yards every day. Intelligence from Russian and other sources stored in the Public Records office in Kew
5. Communications centre. Most of the telephone lines connecting
High Command to the Eastern front went through Dresden.
6. Quote from The Dresden Chamber of Commerce 1944. "The work rhythm of Dresden is determined by the needs of our army."
There were 127 factories in the Dresden Municipal area. The most famous of these was Zeiss the celebrated camera and optics maker. In 1945 it was turning out Bomb aiming apparatus and Time fuses. (If you think the Dresden China Works making those lovely shepherdesses are more famous, they are actually made in Meisen 12Km down the River and always have been.)
A factory that previously made Typewriters and sewing machines was making Guns and ammunition
The Waffle and Marzipan machine manufacturer was producing torpedoes for the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe.
The arts and crafts workshops in the old town were using their woodworking skills to make the tail assemblies for V-1s.
Other factories were turning out such non warlike goods as Searchlights, Aircraft components, Field Telephones and 2 way radios.
Yet another quote, "Anyone who knows Dresden only as a cultural city would be very surprised to be made aware of the extensive and versatile activity that make Dresden ONE OF THE FOREMOST INDUSTRIAL LOCATIONS OF THE REICH. (My Capitals)
Sir Arthur Harris? A Post war exponent of the bombing campaign?
Nope both wrong.
It comes from the Dresden City Council Yearbook of 1942.
The men who carried out these acts did so in the desire to make a world in which their descendants and countrymen, of whom I am one, could live in freedom from persecution and with a freedom to ask questions and form their own opinions. To those of you who feel it necessary to label them war criminals may I ask if you think that you could have asked a similar question under Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan?
The powers during the 19th century and the early 20th laid down ever more stringent rules about conduct during war trying to prevent these excesses but until the Geneva Convention came along there were no hard and fast "rules of war". In 1945 the Geneva Convention did not prohibit the general bombing of a town to destroy its industrial capacity.
We have to look at Dresden in the light of the morality of the time.
Some people in Dresden and elsewhere claim that the Bombing of Dresden by the RAF AND the USAAF is a war crime. In my opinion it was not. I am not in any way denying the fact that what happened in Dresden was horrific and appalling. I do deny that the men who undertook the mission have any crime to answer for.
The bombing of Dresden has been used since 1945 as a tool to beat the RAF about its conduct of "terror bombing" during WW2. The bombing of an industrialized town from the air in an attempt to destroy its industry or cause such loss of morale amongst its inhabitants that they ceased to work was NOT a crime by the Rules of War in 1945. The bombing of Coventry, London and other British Cities in 1940 and 1941 was also NOT a War Crime.
(No NAZI was convicted FOR those actions. They were convicted for OTHER actions, such as starting the war, and following orders to start the war.)
Within Europe we did not have the "industrial areas" afforded to towns in the New World. The factories were in and around the areas where the workforce lived. One side of the street would be the factory wall; the other side of the street would be the workers houses. Unfortunately this lead to what, nowadays, is called "collateral damage"
Dresden burned so heavily for several reasons.
It was a medieval city with many wooden buildings.
There had been a dry winter in the region which meant many buildings were tinderboxes.
The population were not used to air raids and did not therefore have the knowledge that you need to put incendiaries out quickly
The raid had little opposition because its Anti aircraft defence had been taken away by the Germans for use on the Eastern front. Therefore the bombers were able to put their loads in a concentrated space with little or no opposition.
Dresden was not "chosen for destruction". This was a raid on an industrial centre which went exactly right with horrifying consequences due to many circumstances some of which I have listed above.
Why did so many people die?
The 35000 people that died (absolute top number using all available, reliable sources) did so because of the reasons above and the fact that Dresden's Air Raid Precautions were appallingly bad. There were few, if any, properly constructed public shelters despite money having been allocated for them which was spent by the local burghers on Air Raid shelters for their homes in the suburbs.
People therefore sheltered in basements of houses which, due to the firestorm above filled with noxious fumes and killed the occupants before the houses collapsed onto them and burned their corpses.
Many people have claimed in the last 62 years that Dresden was a quiet peaceable town going about its business and waiting for the war to end. Read the paragraphs below which are taken from research by myself and many others for the truth about "quiet, peaceable, nothing to do with the war" Dresden.
In early 1945 the war was far from over. The Allies were still camped outside the borders of Germany, V2 rockets were still falling. The Allies had just fought the battle of the Bulge where the supposedly defeated Germans suddenly punched a huge hole in the Allied lines, German Rocket and Jet aircraft were coming off the production lines and proceeding to rip the hell out of the allied air fleets.
It was an operation undertaken due to many reasons.
1. A request from the Russians at the Yalta conference in February
1945. General Antonov "We want the Dresden railway junction bombed"
Meeting between the Chiefs of staff as reported by an interpreter. Records kept at the Public Records office in Kew
2. It was a German base of operations against Marshall Koniev`s left flank as he advanced into Germany. (See above)
Captured German High Command documents from Berlin in 1945 state that "Dresden is to be fortified as a military strongpoint, to be held at all costs." These statements are also backed up by decrypts from Ultra at Bletchley Park.
3. Munitions storage in the old Dresden Arsenal.
4. Troop reinforcement and transport centre shifting an average 28
troop trains through the marshalling yards every day. Intelligence from Russian and other sources stored in the Public Records office in Kew
5. Communications centre. Most of the telephone lines connecting
High Command to the Eastern front went through Dresden.
6. Quote from The Dresden Chamber of Commerce 1944. "The work rhythm of Dresden is determined by the needs of our army."
There were 127 factories in the Dresden Municipal area. The most famous of these was Zeiss the celebrated camera and optics maker. In 1945 it was turning out Bomb aiming apparatus and Time fuses. (If you think the Dresden China Works making those lovely shepherdesses are more famous, they are actually made in Meisen 12Km down the River and always have been.)
A factory that previously made Typewriters and sewing machines was making Guns and ammunition
The Waffle and Marzipan machine manufacturer was producing torpedoes for the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe.
The arts and crafts workshops in the old town were using their woodworking skills to make the tail assemblies for V-1s.
Other factories were turning out such non warlike goods as Searchlights, Aircraft components, Field Telephones and 2 way radios.
Yet another quote, "Anyone who knows Dresden only as a cultural city would be very surprised to be made aware of the extensive and versatile activity that make Dresden ONE OF THE FOREMOST INDUSTRIAL LOCATIONS OF THE REICH. (My Capitals)
Sir Arthur Harris? A Post war exponent of the bombing campaign?
Nope both wrong.
It comes from the Dresden City Council Yearbook of 1942.
The men who carried out these acts did so in the desire to make a world in which their descendants and countrymen, of whom I am one, could live in freedom from persecution and with a freedom to ask questions and form their own opinions. To those of you who feel it necessary to label them war criminals may I ask if you think that you could have asked a similar question under Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan?
Dresden was not "singled out" for destruction, it got the same treatment that every other city in Germany got. The reasons for it's destruction was a convergence of factors, mostly due to weather and ill preparedness. And no, we weren't getting regular updates from the NAZI high command on the state of the weather in Germany, or their preparations for bombings. There was a war on at the time.
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I am watching Oliver Stone's "Untold History" and, wow, I have to say ... [View all]
redgreenandblue
Jan 2013
OP
Yes. What I have posted is just my initial impression from the first two episodes.
redgreenandblue
Jan 2013
#2
Darlin' ,I just knew you would be able to post the rest of the links I have been looking for!!!
dixiegrrrrl
Jan 2013
#47
Thanks for the links everyone, on to episode 3. It'll be a long night. Very interesting.
JaneyVee
Jan 2013
#53
I'll keep that perspective in mind, but I still want to finish watching the series.
redgreenandblue
Jan 2013
#28
So did our history books when I was coming up, even at the college level.
TheKentuckian
Jan 2013
#36
We certainly killed civilians by design in Dresden, and the British did the same in Berlin
DisgustipatedinCA
Jan 2013
#64
When you find yourself saying "I'm not saying Stalin wasn't the most evil person ever, BUT..."
Recursion
Jan 2013
#15
The big question is, can one directly pin the famines on #1 and #2 of these three.
redgreenandblue
Jan 2013
#30
Re-watch Stone's own picture. He downplayed it and left out most of the details but even he tells
Egalitarian Thug
Jan 2013
#56
Some of us can seperate the sacrifice and contribution of the Russian people
newthinking
Jan 2013
#73
I'd agree with you insofar as saying Stalin had a huge influence on the 20th century
DisgustipatedinCA
Jan 2013
#65
Haven't seen Oliver Stone's version but did see a Russian documentary on Stalin
lunatica
Jan 2013
#12
The brutality of Stalin's is perhaps underrepresented in the Stone documentary.
redgreenandblue
Jan 2013
#13
I'm not trying to excuse the mass murders he commited against his political enemies.
redgreenandblue
Jan 2013
#25
Bingo. The Soviet (as they were known back then) military lost between 8,800,000 to....
OldDem2012
Jan 2013
#70