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Confusious

(8,317 posts)
79. I was hoping you would have something new to say
Sat Jan 12, 2013, 06:11 AM
Jan 2013

Not the old rehashed crap.

Berlin, don't care about. Legit target for bombing. Unless of course, you're trying to blame the United States for the actions of Russia, which would be dishonest.
Japan, all sites were legit targets, including those in the atomic bombings. They were also warned, and decided to ignore those warnings.

Dresden, I might have agreed with you, but after some study, not anymore.

Civilians have suffered during war from the beginning of time. When the barbarians sacked Rome they slaughtered men women and children. When the French stormed Spanish towns during the peninsular war the citizens inside were killed and the towns raped and pillaged.

The powers during the 19th century and the early 20th laid down ever more stringent rules about conduct during war trying to prevent these excesses but until the Geneva Convention came along there were no hard and fast "rules of war". In 1945 the Geneva Convention did not prohibit the general bombing of a town to destroy its industrial capacity.

We have to look at Dresden in the light of the morality of the time.

Some people in Dresden and elsewhere claim that the Bombing of Dresden by the RAF AND the USAAF is a war crime. In my opinion it was not. I am not in any way denying the fact that what happened in Dresden was horrific and appalling. I do deny that the men who undertook the mission have any crime to answer for.

The bombing of Dresden has been used since 1945 as a tool to beat the RAF about its conduct of "terror bombing" during WW2. The bombing of an industrialized town from the air in an attempt to destroy its industry or cause such loss of morale amongst its inhabitants that they ceased to work was NOT a crime by the Rules of War in 1945. The bombing of Coventry, London and other British Cities in 1940 and 1941 was also NOT a War Crime.

(No NAZI was convicted FOR those actions. They were convicted for OTHER actions, such as starting the war, and following orders to start the war.)

Within Europe we did not have the "industrial areas" afforded to towns in the New World. The factories were in and around the areas where the workforce lived. One side of the street would be the factory wall; the other side of the street would be the workers houses. Unfortunately this lead to what, nowadays, is called "collateral damage"

Dresden burned so heavily for several reasons.
It was a medieval city with many wooden buildings.
There had been a dry winter in the region which meant many buildings were tinderboxes.
The population were not used to air raids and did not therefore have the knowledge that you need to put incendiaries out quickly
The raid had little opposition because its Anti aircraft defence had been taken away by the Germans for use on the Eastern front. Therefore the bombers were able to put their loads in a concentrated space with little or no opposition.


Dresden was not "chosen for destruction". This was a raid on an industrial centre which went exactly right with horrifying consequences due to many circumstances some of which I have listed above.

Why did so many people die?

The 35000 people that died (absolute top number using all available, reliable sources) did so because of the reasons above and the fact that Dresden's Air Raid Precautions were appallingly bad. There were few, if any, properly constructed public shelters despite money having been allocated for them which was spent by the local burghers on Air Raid shelters for their homes in the suburbs.

People therefore sheltered in basements of houses which, due to the firestorm above filled with noxious fumes and killed the occupants before the houses collapsed onto them and burned their corpses.

Many people have claimed in the last 62 years that Dresden was a quiet peaceable town going about its business and waiting for the war to end. Read the paragraphs below which are taken from research by myself and many others for the truth about "quiet, peaceable, nothing to do with the war" Dresden.

In early 1945 the war was far from over. The Allies were still camped outside the borders of Germany, V2 rockets were still falling. The Allies had just fought the battle of the Bulge where the supposedly defeated Germans suddenly punched a huge hole in the Allied lines, German Rocket and Jet aircraft were coming off the production lines and proceeding to rip the hell out of the allied air fleets.

It was an operation undertaken due to many reasons.

1. A request from the Russians at the Yalta conference in February
1945. General Antonov "We want the Dresden railway junction bombed"
Meeting between the Chiefs of staff as reported by an interpreter. Records kept at the Public Records office in Kew

2. It was a German base of operations against Marshall Koniev`s left flank as he advanced into Germany. (See above)
Captured German High Command documents from Berlin in 1945 state that "Dresden is to be fortified as a military strongpoint, to be held at all costs." These statements are also backed up by decrypts from Ultra at Bletchley Park.

3. Munitions storage in the old Dresden Arsenal.

4. Troop reinforcement and transport centre shifting an average 28
troop trains through the marshalling yards every day. Intelligence from Russian and other sources stored in the Public Records office in Kew

5. Communications centre. Most of the telephone lines connecting
High Command to the Eastern front went through Dresden.

6. Quote from The Dresden Chamber of Commerce 1944. "The work rhythm of Dresden is determined by the needs of our army."

There were 127 factories in the Dresden Municipal area. The most famous of these was Zeiss the celebrated camera and optics maker. In 1945 it was turning out Bomb aiming apparatus and Time fuses. (If you think the Dresden China Works making those lovely shepherdesses are more famous, they are actually made in Meisen 12Km down the River and always have been.)

A factory that previously made Typewriters and sewing machines was making Guns and ammunition

The Waffle and Marzipan machine manufacturer was producing torpedoes for the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe.

The arts and crafts workshops in the old town were using their woodworking skills to make the tail assemblies for V-1s.

Other factories were turning out such non warlike goods as Searchlights, Aircraft components, Field Telephones and 2 way radios.


Yet another quote, "Anyone who knows Dresden only as a cultural city would be very surprised to be made aware of the extensive and versatile activity that make Dresden ONE OF THE FOREMOST INDUSTRIAL LOCATIONS OF THE REICH. (My Capitals)

Sir Arthur Harris? A Post war exponent of the bombing campaign?

Nope both wrong.

It comes from the Dresden City Council Yearbook of 1942.

The men who carried out these acts did so in the desire to make a world in which their descendants and countrymen, of whom I am one, could live in freedom from persecution and with a freedom to ask questions and form their own opinions. To those of you who feel it necessary to label them war criminals may I ask if you think that you could have asked a similar question under Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan?


Dresden was not "singled out" for destruction, it got the same treatment that every other city in Germany got. The reasons for it's destruction was a convergence of factors, mostly due to weather and ill preparedness. And no, we weren't getting regular updates from the NAZI high command on the state of the weather in Germany, or their preparations for bombings. There was a war on at the time.
I haven't seen the show BainsBane Jan 2013 #1
Yes. What I have posted is just my initial impression from the first two episodes. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #2
Platoon was real and factual larkrake Jan 2013 #55
A lot of people are Oliver Stone naysayers, Blue_In_AK Jan 2013 #3
A Balanced Response Protalker Jan 2013 #4
^ Agree with you ^ Mimosa Jan 2013 #31
agreed. eom ellenfl Jan 2013 #33
+1! uponit7771 Jan 2013 #52
+1. Bonobo Jan 2013 #76
Parts 1, 2, & 3 on Youtube allrevvedup Jan 2013 #5
Thanks for the links. n/t Waiting For Everyman Jan 2013 #43
Parts 4 - 8 Catherina Jan 2013 #45
Darlin' ,I just knew you would be able to post the rest of the links I have been looking for!!! dixiegrrrrl Jan 2013 #47
I HAD to find them! Catherina Jan 2013 #48
Thanks for the links everyone, on to episode 3. It'll be a long night. Very interesting. JaneyVee Jan 2013 #53
It was a long night and I'm still not done lol n/t Catherina Jan 2013 #62
That last quote is so prophetically accurate. dixiegrrrrl Jan 2013 #59
Chilling isn't it? Catherina Jan 2013 #63
Yes, very prophetic. allrevvedup Jan 2013 #69
Amazing quotes from Wallace... AntiFascist Jan 2013 #74
Oh yay! Now we get to see him shit on Clinton... Drunken Irishman Jan 2013 #67
Are you sure he does? allrevvedup Jan 2013 #68
The ending of the last video posted suggests it, yeah... Drunken Irishman Jan 2013 #71
Multiple thank yous. n/t Smarmie Doofus Jan 2013 #81
It's bullshit. Confusious Jan 2013 #6
Parts 1 and 2 at least are pretty standard fare. allrevvedup Jan 2013 #7
Part 3 is excellent. In fact they all are. allrevvedup Jan 2013 #19
Like I said, they're bullshit Confusious Jan 2013 #21
I'll keep that perspective in mind, but I still want to finish watching the series. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #28
So did our history books when I was coming up, even at the college level. TheKentuckian Jan 2013 #36
balanced? We get the rose colored glasses edition in school larkrake Jan 2013 #54
What brutal facts? Confusious Jan 2013 #58
We certainly killed civilians by design in Dresden, and the British did the same in Berlin DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #64
I was hoping you would have something new to say Confusious Jan 2013 #79
Why don't you point out some specific points you find to be 'bullshit'? Bluenorthwest Jan 2013 #84
I already did, but you seem to want to get your outrage on Confusious Jan 2013 #87
What is bullshit, exactly? DanTex Jan 2013 #29
And we fought the NAZIs in Africa Confusious Jan 2013 #37
I think something happened over by Japan too. Neoma Jan 2013 #40
Nah, the russians forced the surrender of Japan Confusious Jan 2013 #41
The war in North Africa was essentially a sideshow. DanTex Jan 2013 #83
They do Confusious Jan 2013 #85
But the Italian campaign was pretty small in the scheme of things. DanTex Jan 2013 #86
As a part, yes, as a whole, no. Confusious Jan 2013 #88
But before D-day, there was (almost) no fighting on the Western Front. DanTex Jan 2013 #89
I think we CAN say that it's bullshit Confusious Jan 2013 #91
R you kidding me? Botany Jan 2013 #8
I am not saying he wasn't a brutal dictator. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #9
When you find yourself saying "I'm not saying Stalin wasn't the most evil person ever, BUT..." Recursion Jan 2013 #15
"the most evil person ever". redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #17
Body count usually is a good judge Confusious Jan 2013 #22
The big question is, can one directly pin the famines on #1 and #2 of these three. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #30
Yes you can pin it on them Confusious Jan 2013 #38
No-one is saying Stalin was a good guy. Just recognizing historical facts newthinking Jan 2013 #72
I didn't say anything you just stated Confusious Jan 2013 #77
So who starved all those people during the drought years in the US? malaise Jan 2013 #11
OMG. Seriously? Recursion Jan 2013 #14
FDR had to send them help because they were starving malaise Jan 2013 #20
lack of understanding about the prairie environment was 75% of the reason .... Botany Jan 2013 #27
Stalin was the world's greatest mass murderer 1-Old-Man Jan 2013 #10
I have to disagree that Stalin was worse than Hitler. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #16
potential ones Confusious Jan 2013 #26
Re-watch Stone's own picture. He downplayed it and left out most of the details but even he tells Egalitarian Thug Jan 2013 #56
Some of us can seperate the sacrifice and contribution of the Russian people newthinking Jan 2013 #73
Really? Can you? Confusious Jan 2013 #80
I'd agree with you insofar as saying Stalin had a huge influence on the 20th century DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2013 #65
Haven't seen Oliver Stone's version but did see a Russian documentary on Stalin lunatica Jan 2013 #12
The brutality of Stalin's is perhaps underrepresented in the Stone documentary. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #13
Stalin's life is definitely a lesson on how to be a dictator lunatica Jan 2013 #18
I'm not trying to excuse the mass murders he commited against his political enemies. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #25
The main point I got from the WWII episodes WCGreen Jan 2013 #23
Exactly, maybe people should actually watch it. newthinking Jan 2013 #75
real history vs Oliver Stone History Botany Jan 2013 #24
^ Agree with you ^ Mimosa Jan 2013 #32
Post removed Post removed Jan 2013 #34
A terrific series. And history as most of the world knows it Catherina Jan 2013 #35
Oliver Stone is a conspiracy nut, tin foil hat wearing, moron. period. crazyjoe Jan 2013 #39
+ Confusious Jan 2013 #42
Stone is a far-left propaganda shit spreader. Archae Jan 2013 #46
Umm, yes, Stone does go into the atrocities in Berlin. redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #66
Stone's son... Puha Ekapi Jan 2013 #51
Apple/Tree otohara Jan 2013 #60
I think it's great.. Upton Jan 2013 #44
Same here Catherina Jan 2013 #49
Good grief. Stalin murdered millions of his own countrymen... lanlady Jan 2013 #50
The Untold History of the US ReRe Jan 2013 #57
Folks, try to keep these two facts in mind DerekG Jan 2013 #61
Bingo. The Soviet (as they were known back then) military lost between 8,800,000 to.... OldDem2012 Jan 2013 #70
Then it sounds like their gov't was courageous and tenacious also. Smarmie Doofus Jan 2013 #82
Max Hastings' book ... Straw Man Jan 2013 #78
I was thinking something similar today... redgreenandblue Jan 2013 #90
kick for more feedback steve2470 Jan 2013 #92
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