Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
62. Lead paint, and the switch from lead pipe water systems after 1900, better reporting
Tue Jan 8, 2013, 12:07 PM
Jan 2013

Most water systems used lead prior to around 1900, Around 1860s a movement started to remove these lead pipe and replaced them with copper, but took 20 years to be implemented and even then it took years for the older lead systems to be replaced by copper.

Now large pipes, in the 1800s, were made of wood (and many are still in use, as long as they never dry out they last a long time), but when it came to pipes in homes, lead was the metal of choice prior to about 1860. My mother's house, built in 1917, still has lead pipe in it (long bypassed), but lead piping was still used in some applications as late as WWI for it was more flexible then copper.

In homes built prior to 1900 lead pipes still show up every so often, if not disturbed lead pipe can last a long time, but the problems with lead were known by 1860 and a movement started to get rid of lead water pipes at that time. Newer homes, built after 1900 for example, tended to have mostly copper piping, but some retain lead in certain locations. Lead pipes were not outlawed till after WWII, and then only in urban areas with building codes.

On top of this lead paint was big prior to the 1920s. but the effect of lead paint had become known by 1900, so that after WWI an international movement occurred to ban such paint. While the US was the only significant manufacturing nation to oppose the ban before, during and after WWI, several paint companies refused to produce lead base paint (For example Pittsburgh Paint, a dominate paint in commercial settings, was known for its non-lead base paint from its purchased by PPG corporation in 1898 and its change of name to Pittsburgh Paint). Most professional painters use Pittsburgh Paints due to its ease of application, its ability to cover other paints even at the cost of the paint being two to three times the price of other paints).

Between the drop in the use of lead in water systems (mostly in the main lines to homes as while as in homes) and the reduction in the use of lead paint after 1900 (Except in industrial settings) would explain the drop in crime in the 1920s. Increase urbanization (movement from the country to the city) which tended to move people into older tenements (With its lead water systems and lead paint) in the 1920s would also explain the increase in crime in the 1930s.

Side note: The FBI keeps National Crime reports today, but it is a compilation of reports given to local police. When surveys are done about crime, the FBI statistics are viewed as unreported except in the case of murder. Furthermore the FBI only started to do such reports in 1930 (and only officially issued the reports from 1935), thus the drop in Crime in the 1920s and increase in crime in the 1930s may just be the effect of someone actually collecting the data. I.e. Data prior to 1935 could and was missed, even for murder, if a local police department decided NOT to file a report. To a degree you have that problem to this very day, but almost all Police department have sent in the data since 1935,

Another problems with records before the 1920s, is that the 1920 Census was the first Census to show more people living in Urban Areas (including Urban Clusters like small towns) then in Rural Areas. Given that Rural Areas, even today, tend to be patrolled by State Police agencies instead of local police, the History of the Nation's State Police is a factor. Pennsylvania adopted the First State Police in the US in 1903, but it was more a labor control mechanism then anything else (The Texas Rangers existed prior to that date, but was more a pseudo-military organization till it was reformed into its present form in 1935).

In the 1920s a new type of State Police come into being, paid by giving tickets to motorists, these were called "Highway Patrols" for that was their duty, to patrol the highways of the state so that the then new state laws governing automobile use was followed. Pennsylvania even adopted one in 1927 (Yes, Pennsylvania had TWO state police forces from 1927 till the late 1930s when the two forces were merged into the "Pennsylvania Motor Police" which changed its name to "Pennsylvania State Police" in 1948).

Other states also adopted State Police Forces or Highway Patrols in the 1920s and 1930s. Most followed the example of the Pennsylvania Highway Patrol, paid by giving tickets, but also providing police services on Rural Highways. As a side factors, such Highway Patrols/State Police forces started to investigate other crimes reported to them outside the jurisdiction of any local police (Which were restricted to urban and suburban areas of the State). By the mid 1930s, you finally had Police Forces governing almost all of the US, something that was NOT the rule 20 years before. In 1915 if a murder occurred in a rural area, it was handled by the County District Attorney or Prosecutor but not the Police for no police existed in that area. This was due to the fact that there was no police force in most of rural America to report the murder from to any national data base. By the mid 1930s that had changed, with the widespread adoption of State Police/Highway Patrols you finally had Police covering Rural Areas of the US and thus a Police Department to report the murder to, and thus a Police Department to send data of crime to the FBI in Washington.

In simple terms, the increase in crime the 1930s may be the result be better reporting of crime. This is especially a factor for the South was and is the most populated rural area of the US (The Rocky Mountain west is larger, but has much lower population compared to the rural South). The South, even in colonial days, were know to be much more violent then the rest of the US. The rural South retain that elevated level of violence, compared to the rest of the nation, to this day (Through it has declined over the last 50 or more years). This violence is more related to who and how the South was settled, then lead, but lead would still be a factor for lead would have made a bad situation worse (and they is some evidence it did).

On the other hand, the South would have had the worse ability to record crime rate in the country until the adoption of State Police forces in the 1920s and 1930s. Thus the increase in crime in the 1930s, may just be the result of the Rural South Finally reporting its crimes to a national data base, thus increasing the crime rate tremendously.

Just a comment that when it comes to crime rates in the US, any statistics prior to WWII is questionable. There was NO law to report such crimes to a central data base and most of the US (in area) did not even have the organization (Police) to gather and send the data to a national data base (The FBi authorized to do so in 1930, did not issue a report till 1935).

It was hypothesized 80 years ago that the fall of the Roman Empire was due to lead plates, goblets leveymg Jan 2013 #1
Proving it, for the current era, is news. truebluegreen Jan 2013 #2
Maybe it is "news" to others who do not already have that information. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #28
Great point! Do me a favor Orrex Jan 2013 #29
I stand corrected. People have known for at least 1900 years that ingesting lead is dangerous leveymg Jan 2013 #72
Thanks--that's a nice summary of the part about general ill health due to lead Orrex Jan 2013 #75
I think too much is being made about this story. I don't view it as news or even as original leveymg Jan 2013 #76
Also lead pipes for water supplies. Jackpine Radical Jan 2013 #51
I don't buy it. what is the mechanism through which increased exposure to lead increases HiPointDem Jan 2013 #3
From Wikipedia: Ptah Jan 2013 #4
i remember when similar studies were done in the 70s. there were problems with them then, & HiPointDem Jan 2013 #5
Well, absent any other information, I'll go with Wikiedia's summary. Ptah Jan 2013 #6
here's some information: HiPointDem Jan 2013 #7
How does that information differ from the Wikipedia citation? Ptah Jan 2013 #9
how do you explain the pre-1925 rise in murder and the drop circa 1937-1965? Lead began HiPointDem Jan 2013 #10
Good point. Ptah Jan 2013 #14
The relevant poisoning is on developing brains, not adult brains jeff47 Jan 2013 #32
yes, they line up well for the crime of aggravated assault, in the cities chosen, in the time HiPointDem Jan 2013 #52
Based on your memory. jeff47 Jan 2013 #59
Prohibition ended on 12/5/1933 and professionally manufactured alcohol became more readily available AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #34
'it's possible....' but unlikely to have had such a large effect on murder rates. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #39
Ever heard of a lead pipe? zeemike Jan 2013 #35
yes, i have. presumably they existed 1937-1965 as well. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #37
"adjusted for confounding factors" AllyCat Jan 2013 #38
why should it adjust for *any* causes? it's a graph of the murder rate, period. i'm not shouting HiPointDem Jan 2013 #43
Because there are other sources of lead in the environment, AllyCat Jan 2013 #47
Did they go away between 1937 and 1965? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #48
The rate of people being Killed in Europe in 1946 was a HUGE DROP from from 1944 happyslug Jan 2013 #69
Military deaths/war deaths aren't part of the murder rate statistics. They're part of the general HiPointDem Jan 2013 #98
Lead paint, and the switch from lead pipe water systems after 1900, better reporting happyslug Jan 2013 #62
i'm not convinced by all the ad hoc, maybe this maybe that stuff on lead pipes & lead paint, HiPointDem Jan 2013 #79
Prior to 1935 we had NO national data base for crime happyslug Jan 2013 #83
I already acknowledged the point about national data. But we do have data for a lot of big HiPointDem Jan 2013 #86
Chipping paint in tenement slums? MADem Jan 2013 #103
There was chipping paint in rural homes too. And there was chipping lead paint circa 1910- HiPointDem Jan 2013 #111
Well, a lot of people were very busy for the first five years of the forties... MADem Jan 2013 #113
lead was used for many things KT2000 Jan 2013 #105
Yes, & what was the lead source that declined precipitously in the 1910s-20s such that the murder HiPointDem Jan 2013 #108
that is what I mean KT2000 Jan 2013 #112
industry pr? what industry has a vested interest in lead these days? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #114
Please note: KT2000 Jan 2013 #120
lead is a *proven* toxin, & has *proven* effects on physical & mental development (i.e developmental HiPointDem Jan 2013 #122
Your math is wrong. 1935 plus at least 20 years (more for cumulative effect) is 1955 SharonAnn Jan 2013 #66
lead began being added to fuel about 1925, not 1935. murder rates dropped dramatically ~1937-1965. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #74
But most Americans did NOT use cars till bout 1954 happyslug Jan 2013 #82
200 cars/1000 people in 1930 = 200% increase from 1900, 100% increase from 1920. And car HiPointDem Jan 2013 #87
Purchased of cars were concentrated in the Rural and Suburban areas prior to WWII happyslug Jan 2013 #96
Here's the problem with your analysis. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #97
Hmmm... krispos42 Jan 2013 #88
'Freakanomics" is right-wing garbage, Steve Levitt is a right-wing hack, and this lead theory HiPointDem Jan 2013 #89
The book didn't mention race as a factor, as far as I can recall. krispos42 Jan 2013 #90
The authors absolutely mention it. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #99
I don't doubt it was in the paper they wrote krispos42 Jan 2013 #106
it was in the book too; not directly, but the whole argument turns on differential abortion rates HiPointDem Jan 2013 #107
Gas isn't/wasn't the only delivery mechanism, though--lead paint was an issue too. MADem Jan 2013 #102
No, it wasn't, but none of the other sources you mention disappeared in the teens and 20s, which HiPointDem Jan 2013 #110
Well, in the teens, a lot of potential criminals went off to war. MADem Jan 2013 #115
not really. us ww1 deaths were .13% of its population. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #116
Well, they didn't all have to die--they could come home wounded, or with PTSD, or healthy-- MADem Jan 2013 #117
same could be said of vietnam vets, but it didn't happen. this is all ad hoc rationalizing because HiPointDem Jan 2013 #119
I'll admit I like the lead hypothesis--it seems very logical to me! nt MADem Jan 2013 #121
Not so much...for example, it's pretty well-accepted that lead exposure = decreased IQ. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #123
There has been a drop in violent crime in almost every big city. WCGreen Jan 2013 #8
why would lead just affect violent crime rates? rather than crime generally, i mean. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #11
Because it's specifically violent crime that's linked to lead poisoning? Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #41
lol. i read your link. the theoretical construct cited has to do with impulse control, which isn't HiPointDem Jan 2013 #46
Impulse control, aggression, and low IQ... Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #53
none of which are specific to aggravated assault or violence. but speaking of drugs: HiPointDem Jan 2013 #54
Again... Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #63
...your first link... HiPointDem Jan 2013 #70
That was a drug war, something generally removed when it comes to overall murder rates happyslug Jan 2013 #68
and did the authors of such studies control for effects of 'drug war'? & how is it possible to HiPointDem Jan 2013 #71
Pay the $39 a get the actual report. happyslug Jan 2013 #77
wait, you seem to know all the details, why can't you just explain it? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #78
Because report of violent crime are more reliable then other crimes happyslug Jan 2013 #65
that's a reason we might pay more attention to violent crime stats rather than other crime stats, HiPointDem Jan 2013 #73
around here we used to have many murders, shootings by the foreign gang bangers..then Obama was Sunlei Jan 2013 #56
Except the correlation between eliminating leaded gasoline and declining violent crime... Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #12
I don't believe that just because someone says so in a news report. I can see it doesn't HiPointDem Jan 2013 #15
Except someone didn't just say so in a news report. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #17
but i haven't read those papers, and no one has posted them on DU. they posted news reports. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #19
Except this says precisely what it's claimed to. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #21
as you are the sort of person who thinks name-calling is an acceptable discussion tactic, you HiPointDem Jan 2013 #26
No, I haven't called you any names. Spider Jerusalem Jan 2013 #27
I posted a Wikepedia link that links to that research. Ptah Jan 2013 #22
First yes, if you read the article you would know fasttense Jan 2013 #24
i didn't say incarceration rates always follow violent crimes rates. i posted the stats on incar- HiPointDem Jan 2013 #33
Thank God for the uk/eu news and uk medical reports or Americans would never know what harms them. Sunlei Jan 2013 #55
except most of the research was done in the us & reported in the us as well. HiPointDem Jan 2013 #57
not these days, the corporations have much stronger control and our American news has declined. Sunlei Jan 2013 #58
yeah, that's why outlets like "forbes" are discussing this research (done in the us), because of HiPointDem Jan 2013 #100
You mean biochemically? Recursion Jan 2013 #31
Where are the people in our country getting lead contamination from? Maraya1969 Jan 2013 #13
Soil, paint and coal burning power plants come to mind Fumesucker Jan 2013 #16
Plus, if you read the MJ article, old windows being lowered and raised Hestia Jan 2013 #67
the main way used to be leaded paint & gas. since both were banned, average blood levels of lead HiPointDem Jan 2013 #18
Check the CDC, which keeps stats on lead across 50 states. Their data do correlate high lead ancianita Jan 2013 #20
can you link to one of those pages where these correlations are shown or described? HiPointDem Jan 2013 #36
My mistatement. I meant that their lead measures data are correlated by others with crime. I'm ancianita Jan 2013 #81
and here's some more analysis from a public health researcher: HiPointDem Jan 2013 #101
Thanks. There's data from national to local levels, and it's all helping to make this case. ancianita Jan 2013 #104
you apparently didn't read what i posted. It says two things: most of the data just shows HiPointDem Jan 2013 #109
decades of lead shot,old pipes,soils,dust,silt beds everywhere water runs off. Sunlei Jan 2013 #30
China, in part. AnotherMcIntosh Jan 2013 #42
We live in a house that is over 100 years old. AllyCat Jan 2013 #44
Firing ranges. morningfog Jan 2013 #84
Are bullets made out of lead? Maraya1969 Jan 2013 #93
Check this out: morningfog Jan 2013 #94
Most recent Mother Jones: America's Real Criminal Element: Lead Fuddnik Jan 2013 #23
+1 xchrom Jan 2013 #25
perhaps the answer today is the medical treatment with chelators as a routine health care. Sunlei Jan 2013 #40
We asked about chelation treatment for our kids when they had levels AllyCat Jan 2013 #45
That experience must have been very upsetting for you parents! Sunlei Jan 2013 #50
I wonder if lead could also be responsible (partly) dotymed Jan 2013 #49
Weird bit of trivia here dmallind Jan 2013 #60
The threat of lead was sown long ago. Remmah2 Jan 2013 #61
Mercury is very close to lead on the periodic table No Compromise Jan 2013 #64
The real problem is Lead is under Carbon in the table happyslug Jan 2013 #80
Too bad you are already tomb-stoned. Now you'll never know what's silly about that statement. cthulu2016 Jan 2013 #91
Close the firing ranges! morningfog Jan 2013 #85
Shut down the bullet manufacturers! ancianita Jan 2013 #92
I thought that was common knowledge noamnety Jan 2013 #95
It may be "trace" quantities of lead that are responsible jmowreader Jan 2013 #118
Latest Discussions»General Discussion»Yes, lead poisoning could...»Reply #62