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yardwork

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83. The self-deleted post by dsc in essence says the same thing as Lumberjack Jeff's post downthread

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 07:05 PM

Dec 2012

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1948179

Both posters are saying that importance of an issue should be determined by the number of people affect. dsc stated that relatively few lesbians (and no gay men) are personally affected by pregnancy, therefore abortion rights are not very important to gay people. Lumberjack Jeff states that most victims of violence are men, therefore violence is not very important to women.

Lumberjack Jeff concludes that "feminism is irrelevant to justice for most victims" just as dsc concludes that abortion rights are irrelevant to most gay people.

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Is male on male violence a feminist issue? [View all] La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 OP

No, it is not a feminist issue. boston bean Dec 2012 #1

i tend to agree. i dont see people expecting the NAACP to care La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #4

Inevitably this discussion will lead to boston bean Dec 2012 #9

You are correct obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #175

no, it is not about "caring about women's issues" hfojvt Dec 2012 #214

This message was self-deleted by its author dsc Dec 2012 #10

control over your body it is not "pretty much" a non issue to any woman. bettyellen Dec 2012 #25

You are exactly right. DURHAM D Dec 2012 #32

Abortion rights are an issue for any woman, for the reasons you mention. Women get pregnant. yardwork Dec 2012 #31

This message was self-deleted by its author dsc Dec 2012 #39

This is just not true. DURHAM D Dec 2012 #42

This message was self-deleted by its author dsc Dec 2012 #48

You know, there are many,many women who have no sufrommich Dec 2012 #51

Interesting mindset, No? DURHAM D Dec 2012 #53

I am so sorry dsc Dec 2012 #56

DurhamD and I are lesbians, as you know. yardwork Dec 2012 #62

Yardie and DurhamD are lesbians, which you HAVE to know obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #179

Gay or straight,the implication is that women support sufrommich Dec 2012 #184

I was thinking about postmenupausal women a sec ago obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #185

So is the poster on record as anti-choice? nt DURHAM D Dec 2012 #189

Did he ever come back to answer these questions? Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #191

I don't know, I've been offline obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #193

I think it's a good thing I missed all of this "live" obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #177

It was really shocking DURHAM D Dec 2012 #188

I don't even know what to say to you. DURHAM D Dec 2012 #52

Whoa. Did dsc really say that? JackBeck Dec 2012 #69

I am stunned by the post something just sent me obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #180

The self-deleted post by dsc in essence says the same thing as Lumberjack Jeff's post downthread yardwork Dec 2012 #83

it's a terribly selfish world view- and beyond that- what are those two doing about violence against bettyellen Dec 2012 #91

It's possible that I'm misunderstanding them but it's difficult to converse with self-deleters. yardwork Dec 2012 #92

I'm not convinced these guys want to advocate against any kind of violence..... bettyellen Dec 2012 #116

wtf -- who even thinks like that?! obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #181

Uh. I have one person on ignore and I'm glad I do. nt sufrommich Dec 2012 #186

I don't know what the deleted post said obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #195

It's better to talk to me if you take issue with something I said. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #218

I cannot believe the deleted post said that obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #176

Yep, it assumed that only lesbians who were raped cared. Such ignorance! bettyellen Dec 2012 #228

I'm actually speechless. yardwork Dec 2012 #45

I'm not- it follows that he thinks since *some* men like himself probably, care less about bettyellen Dec 2012 #78

sorry I forgot dsc Dec 2012 #54

actually i was about to ask, i couldnt find much info La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #55

among other things they count dsc Dec 2012 #57

thanks dsc. that's super helpful info La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #58

Perhaps this will be helpful. DURHAM D Dec 2012 #63

Thanks -- was going to post this obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #172

Just want to point out that this comes across boston bean Dec 2012 #64

we were explaining to YOU, that lesbians have greatly helped out their straight sisters, so wtf bettyellen Dec 2012 #80

Opposing all violence against people Riftaxe Dec 2012 #162

Why couldn't it be a feminist issue? Threedifferentones Dec 2012 #165

what? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #170

I think violence in general is an issue for ALL humanity. alp227 Dec 2012 #249

by definition, no arely staircase Dec 2012 #2

To me, it's all pretty much in the same bucket, violence. n/t RKP5637 Dec 2012 #3

except public violence and private violence La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #5

Yep, m/m, f/f, m/f = domestic violence. RKP5637 Dec 2012 #8

right, but should feminists and womens rights orgs La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #11

I generally think of domestic violence as relationship violence for lack of RKP5637 Dec 2012 #20

Making an occasional comment on a message board is not "active involvement". nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #140

Why not? Sadiedog Dec 2012 #163

You got that right. nt raccoon Dec 2012 #71

Still lots of foot dragging and moving backwards at the state level, too. yardwork Dec 2012 #81

I think most feminists already come out against male on male violence. Starry Messenger Dec 2012 #6

WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ??!?? is 99% of the time a deflection Recursion Dec 2012 #7

this is correct. And maybe some lazy piggybacking- expecting us to do the advocacy for them? bettyellen Dec 2012 #34

I guess this depends on how one wants to define the word "feminism." ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #12

Most feminists care about all violence. boston bean Dec 2012 #14

I wasn't trying to say feminists don't care about all violence, I was just saying ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #27

That's true. And I don't see a problem with that. boston bean Dec 2012 #28

I also don't see a problem with it. nt ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #50

Want you to know I wasn't boston bean Dec 2012 #61

Good points. nt ZombieHorde Dec 2012 #68

Well all violations isn't right no matter who is doing it. We all should care and southernyankeebelle Dec 2012 #13

I can feel safe in saying feminists oppose all violence. boston bean Dec 2012 #17

The irony is that what public awareness there is thucythucy Dec 2012 #15

Actually, I think women ought to care about M/M violence. The reason Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #16

women ought to care about doese not per se equal feminist arely staircase Dec 2012 #19

well put. La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #22

I would say it depends on how you define a feminist issue. antigone382 Dec 2012 #151

As an old feminist, I am in agreement with your point. CTyankee Dec 2012 #65

This is exactly right! nt Bonobo Dec 2012 #142

Yes! Well put! Sadiedog Dec 2012 #164

No ismnotwasm Dec 2012 #18

It is a human issue .... etherealtruth Dec 2012 #21

but are all human issues feminist issues? like, global warming is a serious La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #33

In a sense they are .... etherealtruth Dec 2012 #75

It is when the woman goes home with the winner of the fight. dogknob Dec 2012 #23

Perhaps it is not, but all violence is an issue for all people. MineralMan Dec 2012 #24

i agree. all people though is not a feminist issue per se La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #30

Yes. There are many issues that are issues for all of us. MineralMan Dec 2012 #41

I agree with you. Let the men's rights' groups protest male on male violence. MotherPetrie Dec 2012 #26

No, it is not an issue for feminism to address. Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #29

I think that violence is a feminist issue because it is related to patriarchy. yardwork Dec 2012 #35

ok, so policy and action wise, what should feminists do? La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #36

What we do. Activism for progressive causes. yardwork Dec 2012 #38

Those are positive by products of the successes of issues feminists work for. boston bean Dec 2012 #43

Anybody criticizing any other group for not doing enough yardwork Dec 2012 #46

I can agree with that. boston bean Dec 2012 #47

What I have always said is that feminism is humanism and you can't separate the two. CTyankee Dec 2012 #72

i am all for standing with men when they speak out about this. as a mama of two boys, seabeyond Dec 2012 #37

I raised a son with those values, seabeyond, and I know well what you mean. CTyankee Dec 2012 #74

and that is why i do not buy into "all men are violent, in their DNA" the majority are not. seabeyond Dec 2012 #86

They're only tangentially related Prism Dec 2012 #40

I think it depends on what is being discussed Major Nikon Dec 2012 #44

It could be, because the idea of "winning" or solving conflicts by violence treestar Dec 2012 #49

Both are subcategories of human rights issues Dash87 Dec 2012 #59

It seems like a lot of male on male violence is intended to put the victim in the female role. LeftyMom Dec 2012 #60

stick with the main focus mercuryblues Dec 2012 #66

Nicely put! Moonwalk Dec 2012 #125

No. JoeyT Dec 2012 #67

Don't know if it's a feminist issue... one_voice Dec 2012 #70

It's a human issue and should be the discourse arthritisR_US Dec 2012 #73

No. It is a human issue. nt madinmaryland Dec 2012 #76

Of course not. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #77

why do you think that male advocacy against violence is so unpopular and ineffective? bettyellen Dec 2012 #82

Two reasons: lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #87

I asked why men aren't more frequently or effectively advocating against violence? bettyellen Dec 2012 #90

Don't get confused. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #97

Are you criticizing feminism for focusing on violence perpetrated by men against women? nt boston bean Dec 2012 #101

No, I'm criticizing some feminists who try to pretend otherwise. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #103

you think feminists "pretend" what exactly? nt boston bean Dec 2012 #146

I said some feminists pretend that feminism is about equality. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #156

You appear to be blaming women for men not doing enough about this? I hope I'm confused... bettyellen Dec 2012 #104

You are. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #120

That is because you believe men are oppressed and women boston bean Dec 2012 #121

The words in my mouth? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #133

My apologies, consider iy as it was meant. boston bean Dec 2012 #135

I reserve the word "oppressed" for the truly disenfranchised. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #143

The pretense appears to be that you care about the issue bettyellen Dec 2012 #168

It takes a superhuman effort to move the ball one inch lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #171

Men's rights groups are NOT widely advocating bettyellen Dec 2012 #174

"to equate being "pro man" and against violence is just nonsense." lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #178

What a lazy excuse. Women hear the "what about men's" crap here all the time and it doesn't stop us! bettyellen Dec 2012 #190

You react to the "what about men crap" in the same way every time. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #194

Unlike you, the feminists are continuing a history of effective activism. They don't need "advice" bettyellen Dec 2012 #223

Effective? Undoubtedly! lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #225

We don't have parity yet, but we're working on it! You shld take a lesson from feminists! bettyellen Dec 2012 #227

We do and I am. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #233

7% would be significant enough to merit activism bettyellen Dec 2012 #238

7% is less INaccurate than the rest of popular reporting on the issue. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #241

But you are happy with the 7%, and pleased to make excuses bettyellen Dec 2012 #244

For some people, "reasons" look a lot like "excuses". lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #246

I think the OP is asking a perfectly reasonable question bettyellen Dec 2012 #248

So it's totally a numbers game? yardwork Dec 2012 #84

Violence IS a problem for women. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #88

You seem to be disregarding the many posts in this thread that say the opposite. yardwork Dec 2012 #89

Not disregarding. I'm agreeing with the OP's rhetorical question. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #94

here is what I think you seem to miss boston bean Dec 2012 #96

If "breaking free of gender roles" means more men go to college, or more women dying in wars... lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #99

Are you upset about your gender role, or not? boston bean Dec 2012 #100

I'm not anyone's monkey. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #105

Do you blame feminists for this? nt boston bean Dec 2012 #108

Of course not. The wellbeing of men isn't and shouldn't be feminism's problem. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #111

You are not a feminist, correct? boston bean Dec 2012 #112

That's correct, on both counts. nt lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #115

Feminists are bigoted towards men, is that a fair characterization boston bean Dec 2012 #117

No. It is not. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #122

Because feminist groups should be advocating for men's issues on equal par boston bean Dec 2012 #123

I advocate for the disabled. I don't pretend that I'm simultaneously advocating for everyone else. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #132

You don't think it's possible gollygee Dec 2012 #134

Advocating for equality IS possible. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #137

Why do you think a group can't advocate gollygee Dec 2012 #147

Because one-sided equality is gibberish. It's an oxymoron. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #153

Advocating for one side of equality doesn't mean equality is one-sided gollygee Dec 2012 #207

What is the feminist position on college enrollment? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #211

My personal opinion gollygee Dec 2012 #219

Yes, but not under the banner of feminism. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #154

So feminists are not advocating for equality? boston bean Dec 2012 #136

Ms Bean of Fort Lee New Jersey asks lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #157

That's completely not fair Tsiyu Dec 2012 #106

How about humanism? Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #166

I guess. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #197

The word seems to ha e different connotations for you than for me. Jackpine Radical Dec 2012 #212

"Feminism isn't about equality" wut? Dash87 Dec 2012 #239

Take it up with the OP. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #242

Doesn't child rearing come into play here? xchrom Dec 2012 #79

That is my feeling etherealtruth Dec 2012 #182

Women are mothers of sons Tsiyu Dec 2012 #85

My female teacher in high school said fistfights are a normal guy thing LittleBlue Dec 2012 #93

Your experience is similar to mine. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #102

That is bologne. boston bean Dec 2012 #107

Feminism focuses on issues that are important to women. True enough. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #109

The question remains, then, where are the men groups boston bean Dec 2012 #110

Aside from the guys derided as "MRA" groups, there aren't any. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #114

By refuting feminists and feminism? boston bean Dec 2012 #118

An admirable goal Tsiyu Dec 2012 #139

There is little need for me to focus on that side of the room. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #187

Ah. So this all boils down to a bad divorce Tsiyu Dec 2012 #220

No, you don't "get it" at all. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #222

feminists don't examine the patriarchy? LOL. they kind of invented that field of study! bettyellen Dec 2012 #229

The only person you didn't speak for in that post was yourself. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #234

Wow. Sorry this "protection of a man" thing is so outmoded bettyellen Dec 2012 #237

"Where are the men's groups?" Bonobo Dec 2012 #144

The (all male) mods wanted to deny a men's group? bettyellen Dec 2012 #240

I haven't talked to the admins about the issue directly. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #243

But it is EXACTLY the opposite that happened here. Bonobo Dec 2012 #247

bullshit. wouldnt be involved with a man that thought fighting was the answer. ever. i have spoken seabeyond Dec 2012 #159

Whoa! pecwae Dec 2012 #206

All three posters who replied to this misread, intentionally or otherwise, what I said. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #213

Pretty close... Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #149

In that violence begats violence libodem Dec 2012 #95

Fighting fair in a sport fight? Fine... Lightbulb_on Dec 2012 #150

It most certainly IS a feminist issue. How boys and men define themselves through force is always ancianita Dec 2012 #98

excellent book, real boys. i bought it a decade ago to read. my then 8 yr old picked it up seabeyond Dec 2012 #160

Violence among men is an issue burnsei sensei Dec 2012 #113

No. Violence is the divider between genders. It IS part of the male identity construct. ancianita Dec 2012 #138

Violence is a violence issue. nt rrneck Dec 2012 #119

For indigenous peoples, women and the hearth were protected by the males, as they bore and libdem4life Dec 2012 #124

That's not really what the post was about. Bonobo Dec 2012 #126

First of all i did not cherry pick. I picked what stuck out to me La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #129

Do you agree with this statement Bonobo Dec 2012 #131

to me, feminism means boston bean Dec 2012 #145

I think as human beings we should be concerned about any Cleita Dec 2012 #127

+1 nt Zorra Dec 2012 #158

any woman who has a father, brother, husband, or son should care liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #128

Not a feminist issue, but a human issue gollygee Dec 2012 #130

The irony of this thread... Bonobo Dec 2012 #141

Many of us women do take male on male violence seriously liberal_at_heart Dec 2012 #148

i didnt know this was about your thread. i didnt see this thread discussing m/f violence more than seabeyond Dec 2012 #161

+1 nt lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #169

i agree with you (which isn't to say that feminists don't care about such violence personally) fishwax Dec 2012 #152

Duh! RobertEarl Dec 2012 #155

No, because women can be isolated from the culture of violence and degredation Romulox Dec 2012 #167

I agree, Priyanka obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #173

If we are to hold to the standard that everyone is equal Rex Dec 2012 #183

to me it is a progressive issue, but not a feminist issue La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #192

To a person who is primarily interested in equality... lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #198

i think a lot more men believe in feminist principles, than say you do La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #199

I think they're subconsciously invested in the patriarchy. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #202

True Rex Dec 2012 #226

I don't think it is a feminist issue obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #196

It is a progressive issue but not a feminist issue. lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #200

"feminist marketing terminology" obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #205

You don't agree? lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #209

lololol obamanut2012 Dec 2012 #210

I guess the problem must be the way I'm saying it. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #215

There are some things that shouldn't be compartmentalized and violence is one of them MrScorpio Dec 2012 #201

"To say that women shouldn't express concern about male-on-male violence" lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #203

" To say that women shouldn't express concern about male-on-male violence" sufrommich Dec 2012 #208

of course not njcamden_25884 Dec 2012 #204

Thank you for illustrating the distinction between progressivism and feminism. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #216

or advocating for gay rights and progressivism, or advocating for climate change La Lioness Priyanka Dec 2012 #217

There is no contradiction between the two gollygee Dec 2012 #224

isn't that like saying distinction between progressivism and health care for all ? JI7 Dec 2012 #230

Of course it is. JackRiddler Dec 2012 #221

I think feminism has and can do more against male vs male violence than men's rights groups. Evoman Dec 2012 #231

What is needed in that regard is a men's advocacy group without the RW politics and hate. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #235

No. But it's a Humanist issue that can affect Feminism johnlucas Dec 2012 #232

Thanks John! lumberjack_jeff Dec 2012 #236

Wow. This site is humongous. I had no idea. johnlucas Dec 2012 #245