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ElboRuum

(4,717 posts)
55. No, see, here is where you are missing it, I think.
Sun Dec 2, 2012, 02:36 PM
Dec 2012

I've been watching these threads with some interest, and finding myself puzzled with what is actually being argued about. Student safety should be something that should be discussed during orientation, so really, what's the issue here. I think I see the disconnect, finally.

I think the contention of all of this is that some people felt that a "how to avoid rape" portion of orientation is, in and of itself, a sensible thing. So would a "how to avoid the theft of your personal property", "how to avoid a physical attack", etc. However, the picture seemed to convey the message that her safety wasn't her specific responsibility, that the offense exists in that there was a suggestion in having a "how to avoid rape" portion of orientation indicates that somehow the university is prepared to accept rape as a part of campus life.

I think that's what started this whole fracas.

The problem with all of this is, those who say that her registering offense at having the "how to avoid rape" education rather than having the boys take a "Don't Rape" course have a point insofar as misdirected anger. The reason for that is singular.

That reason is that rape is a crime.

And that's where the disconnect is occurring.

The problem is that a rape awareness class conveys no information meaningfully, anymore than a "Don't Steal" class would. We fully expect people to know that theft is a crime, and we certainly wouldn't expect to have to tell a group of incoming freshmen not to steal things under the guise of a "theft awareness" class. People who are not thieves won't steal, and those who are will. A class would therefore be completely useless, conveying no information and having no effect on the amount of campus theft that occurs.

People who don't rape won't rape under any circumstance. They don't need the class. Rapists are fully aware of their criminal behavior and aren't given to caring about their victims. They are a waste of the class.

Of course people can control themselves, and "hormones" aren't nearly the coercive force that some people imagine them to be. That prefrontal cortex can put the kybosh on any undesirable primitive behavior no matter how strong, and a good thing too, otherwise we wouldn't have civilization.

Criminals just don't care to control themselves and care little for or believe that they won't be held accountable for the consequence. Criminals don't care that they hurt, and don't care to be responsible partners and friends.

This is the disconnect. Men aren't remedials. Rape has nothing to do with some mystical "uncontrollable impulse". All men know that rape is a crime. A criminal (rapist) just doesn't care. You aren't going to reduce rape by trying to educate a rapist any more than you are going to reduce murder by educating murderers or reduce theft by educating thieves.

The picture is, to some, a head shaker because of what I've presented here. It shows on the part of the subject a lack of understanding of the cause and effect of the situation. She actually got the best possible outcome by having the "how to avoid rape" tips during orientation.

Whether we choose to accept it or not, crime, not just rape, but all forms of crime, will always be a part of the human experience. The best we CAN do as a society at large is prosecute those who break the law after the fact, and forearm ourselves against becoming victims of said crimes before the fact.

Hope this does a little to clarify things, because quite honestly the amount of vitriolic disagreement and emotional invective with regard to this one picture is quite confounding.

it should be for both young men and women, and early in HS, the latest. bettyellen Dec 2012 #1
I second that ... Vox Moi Dec 2012 #2
thinking on it both sexes need to know what the laws are in specific scenarios as well as tips on bettyellen Dec 2012 #17
This. CrispyQ Dec 2012 #54
I think middle school would be good Marrah_G Dec 2012 #5
you're right. most were saying college before- but it;s obviously way too late. bettyellen Dec 2012 #18
I would say to such people who think nothing of a need for radical change to "Go to Hell." NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #3
Please do explain ... what radical change, specifically? Vox Moi Dec 2012 #7
What an idiotic picture, we teach people how to avoid being robbed. Kurska Dec 2012 #68
I think you were missing the point of the picture Marrah_G Dec 2012 #4
The problem with the picture was that it set up a fight rather than a discussion Gore1FL Dec 2012 #12
She was trying to raise awareness to the problem Marrah_G Dec 2012 #13
Except that she didn't start the discussion one would assume she actually wanted to have. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #38
the fact that it set up a fight says far more about the people who are upse with the sign than niyad Dec 2012 #15
I am not against the rape awareness class. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #46
no, that picture said nothing of the kind--nowhere was there a mention of a self-defense class, niyad Dec 2012 #47
Nevermind. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #50
really? I am simply asking you to show where these things are that you are talking about. nice try, niyad Dec 2012 #83
it's odd how many posts are angry/ dissaproving about things never said here...... bettyellen Dec 2012 #59
"strident"? Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #21
It attacks rather than discusses. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #39
'Strident'means loud, harsh, grating and is almost always used to refer to women. Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #41
I meant that it was used to pick a fight and not have a discussion. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #44
Well, I disagree about the nature of the sign. Sheldon Cooper Dec 2012 #45
how about ACCURATE? niyad Dec 2012 #48
No. That's not the word either. n/t Gore1FL Dec 2012 #51
can you tell us what you mean by "rape awareness"? CTyankee Dec 2012 #73
Whatever she meant by "Don't Rape" in her sign. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #80
No, I mean what YOU think rape awareness means. What subjects would be considered in CTyankee Dec 2012 #81
Course design isnot my speciality, but if I were going to design one Gore1FL Dec 2012 #82
I would center it on what we know about why men rape and how societal norms have CTyankee Dec 2012 #85
her poster was pithier, stronger voice and more effective- bettyellen Dec 2012 #56
If the point is to be pithy you and she win. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #60
i forgive you- everyone gets confused Gore1Fl.... I'm sure you meant to be helpful and had no idea bettyellen Dec 2012 #62
welcome to DU niyad Dec 2012 #49
no, it set up a men's pity party and multiple attempts at thread jacking bettyellen Dec 2012 #22
This would be an example pof what I was talking about. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #40
I relayed the truth of what happened on that thread. Why would you object? bettyellen Dec 2012 #57
The college my niece attends did do this for the young women and it counts as a credit Hestia Dec 2012 #32
I think the rape awareness class is a good idea too. n/t Gore1FL Dec 2012 #43
Did it offend your delicate sensibilities? Tsiyu Dec 2012 #33
This is my point exactly. Gore1FL Dec 2012 #42
So, should there also be "how to avoid being beaten up for your effeminate behavior" classes? NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #6
Here's a class: 'Dangerous Situations that we don't cover because we don't think they should exist.' Vox Moi Dec 2012 #8
I would have motherfucking zero tolerance for any assault based on sex, gender, or orientation. NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #10
Let's make that any assault at all ... and thanks. Vox Moi Dec 2012 #11
thanks, but hate crimes and sex crimes are special status for a reason..... bettyellen Dec 2012 #24
i think peer group sensitivity classes work for kids though... and we sorely need to set higher bettyellen Dec 2012 #25
K&R !!! n/t RKP5637 Dec 2012 #9
I took one of those. redgreenandblue Dec 2012 #63
I think we should give the poster a chance to describe what he/she means by rape CTyankee Dec 2012 #76
you missed the point of the sign, apparently. "avoiding dangersous situations"?? sounds a bit niyad Dec 2012 #14
Do you lock the door to your home? mythology Dec 2012 #26
But rape prevention instruction DOESN'T blame the victim. DirkGently Dec 2012 #86
You lost me on the last line: thucythucy Dec 2012 #16
don't forget the sentence above that "it isn't a question of right or wrong". niyad Dec 2012 #19
That too. thucythucy Dec 2012 #23
You are looking for enemies where there are none. Vox Moi Dec 2012 #31
I have no idea what you think you're trying to do. thucythucy Dec 2012 #36
It wouldn't and didn't prevent me from being raped. salin Dec 2012 #20
It especially doesn't work if the woman is physically handicapped... Odin2005 Dec 2012 #29
Point well taken. salin Dec 2012 #30
It is also the method which gets the better overall outcome. /nt TheMadMonk Dec 2012 #27
frankly I think that a class on avoiding being a victim of crime would make sense dsc Dec 2012 #28
cross the street... right. and we are being attacked in another thread for crossing the street seabeyond Dec 2012 #71
I guess you forgot to read the class for both genders part dsc Dec 2012 #84
There also need to be classes for men on HOW NOT TO RAPE Tsiyu Dec 2012 #34
No, see, here is where you are missing it, I think. ElboRuum Dec 2012 #55
What is your area of expertise on this that you feel qualified to come "clarify for us"? experts bettyellen Dec 2012 #58
Why so tense? ElboRuum Dec 2012 #61
wow, calm down dude, LOL. So, you admittedly have NO expertise and yet you shot down bettyellen Dec 2012 #64
Calm down? ElboRuum Dec 2012 #72
Calm down-you seem really agitated. bettyellen Dec 2012 #74
bettyellen... ElboRuum Dec 2012 #78
I wasn't any more excitable than you, seriously.... bettyellen Dec 2012 #79
I will accept any critique... ElboRuum Dec 2012 #87
You are wrong in a very profound way Tsiyu Dec 2012 #66
I am willing to accept the idea that I am wrong. ElboRuum Dec 2012 #69
Thank you. You just made my day Tsiyu Dec 2012 #70
Which do we hear more often: "don't drink and drive" or "avoid drunk drivers"? NYC Liberal Dec 2012 #35
Excellent point! thucythucy Dec 2012 #37
common sense tips loyalsister Dec 2012 #52
good point- and most stats say people do NOT understand the law, it needs to be clarified in detail bettyellen Dec 2012 #65
Do it Prometheus_unbound Dec 2012 #53
This is an important part of it, yes. bettyellen Dec 2012 #75
How about this? Eyes of the World Dec 2012 #67
Stop talking reason naaman fletcher Dec 2012 #77
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