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In reply to the discussion: Meet the Predators (men need to learn how to recognize and fight rape culture) [View all]mercuryblues
(14,530 posts)238. oh my
I've heard the horrific stories about what happens to some women, and in fact my own sister was raped. But that alone doesn't mean that the "male culture" is one of raping women, as that would mean that nearly every man engaged in that behavior. I'm sure that's how you view them, but your view doesn't comport with reality.
Here I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but then you went and said this.
Look, you're trying to tell me what MY culture is, and I'm telling you that in most circles (admittedly not all, but most) rape is most certainly not condoned.
FFS I never said it was YOUR culture, but somehow you assumed I did, nor did I say it was male culture Did you mean all male culture, or just some male culture. Because you did not specify lets use YOUR default definition: ALL male culture. Therefore NO male has ever contributed to or were directly involved with condoning rape or laughing when demeaning sexual talk or gestures were targeted towards a women. You have been repeatedly told throughout this whole fucking thread that not ALL men support this, or involved in this, nor are all men rapist. Yet you still take umbrage that the OP did not specifically state some men. The definition of men : plural of man. It is not all men by default. Amazingly enough I am smart enough to differentiate between the two. Apparently you are not despite being repeatedly told throughout this thread.
But lets get back to the OP. This is every instance of the word men:
survey asks men, of men raping women. * 120 men admitted to raping; These 76 men; of the men surveyed; These 76 men,; The whole sample of almost 1900 men ; the men; young-ish men; studied 1146 newly enlisted men; of the men who; The 96 men; these men; 96 men; The vast majority of the offenses are being committed by a relatively small group of men ; Of the men who used only force against their victims, none reported raping a stranger; all the men knew; men who targeted; small group of men; that is a lot of men perhaps six or twelve million men in the U.S. alone; Im directing this to men who inhabit het-identified social spaces, and Im not really limiting it more than that.Listen. The women you know will tell you when the men they thought they could trust assaulted them; , these men need silence; , these men need silence; The women you know will tell you when the men; The men in your lives; pull six or ten or twelve million men out of; discussing rapes committed by men
Not once did I come across an instance where ALL men were even implied. Quite the opposite, there is a descriptor qualifying the amt of men. Note that this quote was not even in there "men need lessons as you quoted in a previous reply.
One interesting way to describe it is how "justice" gets meted out in prisons. Typically sex offenders are the first in line to get raped by some other inmate, and prison rape is almost all about dominance and retribution for something (whereas rape-rape is about that, what I think is probably a mental deficiency, and I'd also imagine there's some weird sexual desire there too). So even prisoners - male prisoners - punish rapists.
WTF does prison rape have to do with the topic we are discussing?
I've seen a lot of things in movies that I don't automatically assume are as widespread as a movie would have me believe. Hell I've seen movies where a regular guy was made God for like a week or something, yet you don't see me thinking that's a valid option. Now you are being absurb, and you know it
But until you can show me that men as a nearly unified group either engage in or That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I'm only saying that if it were so widespread - what? - was I the luckiest guy in the world to pick the only frat - or one of the few frats - which don't do that?
43% of college men admit to rape, as long as it is not called rape. What part of that do you not get? 51-60% say they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it.
These men do not stay in college forever, they graduate and move on. It does not automatically stop when the man receives a diploma. Then they become a part of the general male culture. . Some will continue their behavior, some will not.
Congratulations!1!1, you say you have already done that. Not every man is you and you are not every man.. Women need more help in combatting this violence. Not being told that a culture (the set of values, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic) of misogyny doesnt exist and is not widespread because you yourself have not seen it.
No, probabilities would suggest that while a very serious problem, it's not a cultural norm but is in fact a significant minority of persons who then paint their gender mates with a very disgusting brush.
But that is not what was done, despite your insistence.
With respect to the statistics, you're telling me that a statistical minority of a population somehow equals its culture? I don't know how that works precisely, but even your own statistics - assuming they're correct - show a minority figure for what you're claiming to be the majority/dominant culture. That doesn't make a lot of sense, and frankly it's offensive that you think what those cretins do is somehow reflective of what most men believe in.
This is where your logic fails. The studies targeted very specific groups of men, you conflate it to ALL men. I defined the definition of culture I was using above, but basically it is a sub-set, a culture within a culture, if you will. But go ahead and ignore, conflate and construct a strawman argument, you seem to be enjoying it.
Rape is rape, there's no better way to say it than that. So we could always do better to teach kids who evidently don't understand that concept (according to your own sources some 60% of the surveyed females said that rape after 6 months of dating would be okay, so both groups have some work to do in my view). Yet let's not be so quick to label everyone a rapist for as it turns out those who aren't absolutely hate it.
Is that all females or some females? All kids or some kids? I am pissed at the fact that you seem to believe ALL kids need to be taught better. MY kids know better. How dare you suggest that ALL kids believe that rape is okay if they are dating? Do you think my kids are some kind of animals that need to be restrained? How dare anyone would assume my kids don't already have that capacity is offensive and wrong and participate in this. My kids have ZERO to do with that belief. Thanks for stereotyping my kids. But you know what? I understood what you meant just fine. I didnt need to create a whole thread around me and perceived persecutions.
You did say we, but what do you mean by we? Throughout this whole thread, you imply because you dont participate in the behavior nor condone it, your work is done, now you say we . Are you assuming that I do not discuss this with my children, and their friends? Are you saying that when I hear them using a derogatory term towards others, I dont call them out on it, explain why it is crude and ask them to think about it? But, I understood what you meant. I feel no need to criticize and be outraged over the use of the word we, when it does not apply to me personally.
Here I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but then you went and said this.
Look, you're trying to tell me what MY culture is, and I'm telling you that in most circles (admittedly not all, but most) rape is most certainly not condoned.
FFS I never said it was YOUR culture, but somehow you assumed I did, nor did I say it was male culture Did you mean all male culture, or just some male culture. Because you did not specify lets use YOUR default definition: ALL male culture. Therefore NO male has ever contributed to or were directly involved with condoning rape or laughing when demeaning sexual talk or gestures were targeted towards a women. You have been repeatedly told throughout this whole fucking thread that not ALL men support this, or involved in this, nor are all men rapist. Yet you still take umbrage that the OP did not specifically state some men. The definition of men : plural of man. It is not all men by default. Amazingly enough I am smart enough to differentiate between the two. Apparently you are not despite being repeatedly told throughout this thread.
But lets get back to the OP. This is every instance of the word men:
survey asks men, of men raping women. * 120 men admitted to raping; These 76 men; of the men surveyed; These 76 men,; The whole sample of almost 1900 men ; the men; young-ish men; studied 1146 newly enlisted men; of the men who; The 96 men; these men; 96 men; The vast majority of the offenses are being committed by a relatively small group of men ; Of the men who used only force against their victims, none reported raping a stranger; all the men knew; men who targeted; small group of men; that is a lot of men perhaps six or twelve million men in the U.S. alone; Im directing this to men who inhabit het-identified social spaces, and Im not really limiting it more than that.Listen. The women you know will tell you when the men they thought they could trust assaulted them; , these men need silence; , these men need silence; The women you know will tell you when the men; The men in your lives; pull six or ten or twelve million men out of; discussing rapes committed by men
Not once did I come across an instance where ALL men were even implied. Quite the opposite, there is a descriptor qualifying the amt of men. Note that this quote was not even in there "men need lessons as you quoted in a previous reply.
One interesting way to describe it is how "justice" gets meted out in prisons. Typically sex offenders are the first in line to get raped by some other inmate, and prison rape is almost all about dominance and retribution for something (whereas rape-rape is about that, what I think is probably a mental deficiency, and I'd also imagine there's some weird sexual desire there too). So even prisoners - male prisoners - punish rapists.
WTF does prison rape have to do with the topic we are discussing?
I've seen a lot of things in movies that I don't automatically assume are as widespread as a movie would have me believe. Hell I've seen movies where a regular guy was made God for like a week or something, yet you don't see me thinking that's a valid option. Now you are being absurb, and you know it
But until you can show me that men as a nearly unified group either engage in or That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I'm only saying that if it were so widespread - what? - was I the luckiest guy in the world to pick the only frat - or one of the few frats - which don't do that?
43% of college men admit to rape, as long as it is not called rape. What part of that do you not get? 51-60% say they would rape a woman if they knew they could get away with it.
These men do not stay in college forever, they graduate and move on. It does not automatically stop when the man receives a diploma. Then they become a part of the general male culture. . Some will continue their behavior, some will not.
Congratulations!1!1, you say you have already done that. Not every man is you and you are not every man.. Women need more help in combatting this violence. Not being told that a culture (the set of values, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic) of misogyny doesnt exist and is not widespread because you yourself have not seen it.
No, probabilities would suggest that while a very serious problem, it's not a cultural norm but is in fact a significant minority of persons who then paint their gender mates with a very disgusting brush.
But that is not what was done, despite your insistence.
With respect to the statistics, you're telling me that a statistical minority of a population somehow equals its culture? I don't know how that works precisely, but even your own statistics - assuming they're correct - show a minority figure for what you're claiming to be the majority/dominant culture. That doesn't make a lot of sense, and frankly it's offensive that you think what those cretins do is somehow reflective of what most men believe in.
This is where your logic fails. The studies targeted very specific groups of men, you conflate it to ALL men. I defined the definition of culture I was using above, but basically it is a sub-set, a culture within a culture, if you will. But go ahead and ignore, conflate and construct a strawman argument, you seem to be enjoying it.
Rape is rape, there's no better way to say it than that. So we could always do better to teach kids who evidently don't understand that concept (according to your own sources some 60% of the surveyed females said that rape after 6 months of dating would be okay, so both groups have some work to do in my view). Yet let's not be so quick to label everyone a rapist for as it turns out those who aren't absolutely hate it.
Is that all females or some females? All kids or some kids? I am pissed at the fact that you seem to believe ALL kids need to be taught better. MY kids know better. How dare you suggest that ALL kids believe that rape is okay if they are dating? Do you think my kids are some kind of animals that need to be restrained? How dare anyone would assume my kids don't already have that capacity is offensive and wrong and participate in this. My kids have ZERO to do with that belief. Thanks for stereotyping my kids. But you know what? I understood what you meant just fine. I didnt need to create a whole thread around me and perceived persecutions.
You did say we, but what do you mean by we? Throughout this whole thread, you imply because you dont participate in the behavior nor condone it, your work is done, now you say we . Are you assuming that I do not discuss this with my children, and their friends? Are you saying that when I hear them using a derogatory term towards others, I dont call them out on it, explain why it is crude and ask them to think about it? But, I understood what you meant. I feel no need to criticize and be outraged over the use of the word we, when it does not apply to me personally.
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Meet the Predators (men need to learn how to recognize and fight rape culture) [View all]
redqueen
Nov 2012
OP
I could say 'the ubiquitous aspects of human culture which enable rapists and the epidemic of
redqueen
Nov 2012
#13
It's about their ego.... So much so they need to deny the reality and the import
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#60
Partly true. 92-96% of men are heavily invested in the fact that they're not rapists.
lumberjack_jeff
Dec 2012
#180
so much so, they absolutely refuse to listen or to help women out, I know. So sad their egos get the
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#214
i do not define myself as a gender and love so many of them men on du.... and i dont stay out of the
seabeyond
Dec 2012
#199
Actually it is "culture" because acceptable sexism and "rights of women" or lack there of...
vaberella
Dec 2012
#143
So you're using examples from decades in the past to describe the present?
The Doctor.
Dec 2012
#270
"The rapists can’t be your friends, and..." That is where this runs off the tracks.
ieoeja
Nov 2012
#22
Sorry, but most men have literally ZERO to do with this "rape culture" of which the author speaks
TeamsterDem
Nov 2012
#27
haha speaking of bruised egos and what not, might wanna reread your frothing response
TeamsterDem
Nov 2012
#30
It is in the fucking OP: 4-8% of men are responsible for the vast majority of rapes. nt
redqueen
Nov 2012
#36
Yeah. How dare we consider the epidemic levels of sexual violene as more important
redqueen
Nov 2012
#40
Ah, so you've never PERSONALLY done the things you claim to know so well, then
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#92
Please point me to my quote where I said it's not my problem. If you can't, admit you're lying
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#176
Oh my sweet Jesus, just when I thought you couldn't possibly get any dumber you went and did
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#204
I'm not calling you a liar. I just said your account of things seemed overly defensive.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#139
Do you have difficulty reading written words? You keep saying I said something that I didn't
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#65
The OP also says "men need lessons" as if we're a bunch of idiots who don't know already that rape
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#77
Well if you really want to be honest about the world, you can't always use perfectly polite language
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#108
You claim you purposely avoid awful misogynist men-also that you've never seen or heard misogynist
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#172
No, I said I avoid types which might turn out to be bad acquaintances later on
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#175
you jumped the shark a while ago. but you go double down if your ego needs it so badly.
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#179
As I don't buy your pompous judgments of others, nor will I cede an argument I believe in
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#184
wow, thanks for allowing me to have my own opinion without the threat of PM stalking, LOL.
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#190
Does that pass for wit in your circles? Or is it pretty much seen as every bit as pathetic as it is
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#194
No, you're engaging in stereotyping by supporting someone who said "men need education"
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#45
You claim you're completely ignorant that misogynistic behavior happens, but are
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#53
Sometimes I think DU's biggest problem of all, is people's compulsive need to engage in sophistry.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#83
It most certainly IS NOT the culture despite the fact that unfortunately it does happen
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#215
DERP-you think there's just one single culture of men out there? Every school,company,neighborhood
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#237
For reference, I didn't call you childish because you're female, I did so because it's the truth
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#123
I didn't make the topic about males, the OP did that by saying "men need to learn"
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#137
I wouldn't call you a misogynist, but you do seem to be belittling the subject of misogyny.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#135
Show me one example where I stereotyped anyone or put words in their mouths
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#141
I think the point is you've been SEVERELY OVERREACTING this whole time.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#133
Ahh yes, everyone who takes offense at being stereotyped is always overreacting and emotional
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#170
The point is you threw a fit about "stereotyping" in the midst of a thread
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#151
No, in a thread about men's attitudes towards rape I both gave my own attitude
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#156
Your *whole argument* is a strawman. Again, *no one* on this thread is lumping all men together
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#159
"men need to learn" with reference to not supporting rape is the very definition
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#164
"Stow the attitude"? Considering what she just described, that's a really self-centered post.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#122
I didn't cause their suffering or misfortune, thus I don't deserve the attitude for it
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#128
It just wasn't the thing to say right at that moment. Came off as insensitive.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#160
Tough. I don't owe anyone niceties or sensitivity. I do owe them the truth and that's what I've
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#167
The truth about an ex frat boy marine who's heard nary a misogynist word spoken his whole life?
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#174
LOL, your reply is about how you successfully stereotype people who "look" misogynist? Ha ha.
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#181
Uh, making judgments about who you want to be friends with based on their attitudes
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#185
Human behavior isn't divided into black-and-white categories. It's a CONTIUUM.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#79
"Who said I was 'squeaky clean'"? You just gave an exaggerated impression of such, that's all.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#99
Uh, saying I haven't hung around with rapists is hardly giving an impression of prudishness
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#114
Yes, it is serious. Your taxonomy of the degrees of offense doesn't diminish what others feel
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#134
How is being "stereotyped" anywhere near as serious as being fucking RAPED???
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#153
Maybe not such an unreasonable post, but it comes off as awfully self-centered.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#74
The holier-than-thou part was intentional as I find it holier-than-thou that
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#78
Again, why so defensive? It seems completely out proportion to any potential harm done you.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#110
You just contradicted yourself. Either this stuff is serious and important, or it's not.
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#157
Man you're either dim or intentionally obtuse to a degree I've never seen before
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#166
and either he's seen not one bit of misogyny in his whole life, or he's worked to avoid associating
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#177
If you're not saying majority then stop using the universal word "men" which means all of them
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#47
It's not so much about you. More about the poster who took over this whole thread
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#158
It wasn't in reference to that particular post, rather to the broader theme
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#70
i have often found your "rape culture" posts to be accusatory and offensive
arely staircase
Nov 2012
#37
Not as petty as some of the responses on this thread (not necessarily yours). Just saying...
nomorenomore08
Dec 2012
#105
I'm beginning to think you are right too.... One warning sign it took me a while to learn
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#240
We have rape culture proponents right here at DU, men who post stuff like this:
geek tragedy
Dec 2012
#260
After reading this op and the responses I find myself thinking of what happens when
retread
Dec 2012
#121
People insisting upon fair treatment are often "cacophonous" and seen as "rigid"
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#196
I agree. That would be more than fair, it'd be human. And about past time that they do, too. nt
TeamsterDem
Dec 2012
#205
it makes me think of my cousin, I remember how he'd have people wincing with some of the nasty shit
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#230
but you see, many guys will argue that the pocket of culture you stumbled upon doesn't exist at all
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#226
One male 'genius' on DU said since he didn't personally think that women felt any more fear than men
redqueen
Dec 2012
#208
Family is tricky. I'd base my reactions around his current situation. Is he still having exploitive
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#241
yep, assholes drag everyone into their messy lives one way or another if you let them
bettyellen
Dec 2012
#248
One thing I'd ask, don't women have just as much of a responsibility to combat it too?
Hippo_Tron
Dec 2012
#263