Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #37)
Mon Nov 12, 2012, 09:35 PM
Diclotican (4,622 posts)
I have to admit - until GWB got elected in 2000 (dubious at best) I believed US to be a voice of reason in a rather troublesome world... But I do have a rather great "radar" when it come to lies... And I was tough never to let others made a decision for me, better to get the facts straight for yourself, rather han just shew what others told you to be the truth.. And I doesn't got the WMD stuff to be true - as I tried to plow true the facts as I was finding them... (I doesn't discovered DU before 2003 or something like that) So I had to just try to understand the truth as I found it... It was not easy as the misinformation from many places was rather great... I found the WMD stuff to just not compute.. A country who was more or less demilitarized by the late 1990s, before the Inspectors was thrown out of Iraq, courtesy of the CIA who used their spies to do anything else than get the facts on Iraq's WMD weapons the country was more or less in no shape to really hide their WMD.. And after 1998 it was at best dubious that Iraq should have been able to rebuild their WMD capacity - as the country had been one of the most Draconian sanctions ever to be experienced by a modern nation... They doesn't even had pencils to write in the school books - because it could have "dual-use" why should them have the capacity to also make WMD... It just doesn't compute for me... And even though the US Administration under Bush jr, was trying to tell that they had evidences, who they wanted to share - no evidence ever given to the UN, or to nations who the US for some reason trusted - was given away evidences that Iraq indeed was in breach of their obligations as after the seas fire in 1991.. In fact, most of their weapons possibility was destroyed - and even I could look at pictures from Iraq, and look for myself that old russian equipment was not enough to make Iraq a danger to the world.. It might was big enough to keep their own population under strict control - but nothing that was able to get Iraq go on a rampage again.. If a war was planned, the generals in iraq was indeed blind and deaf...
The UN inspectors who tried to decide if Iraq had WMDs, or that the country was in breach of their obligations after 1991 was never really given any chance to do their job.. Even as they was trying to get to the bottom of things - CIA and the then administration was hiding over 100 installation they believed to be full of factories who made WMDs.. Even as the inspectors was traveling to Iraq - the leader of the corps Hans Blix (A swede) was told by the Vice President Cheney - that He for one, would do anything to make the inspectors fail - and that he better watch his back... Mr Blix is a great diplomat - but I'm not sure what he was feeling when he was told by the US Vice president, that the chances of US not going to war against Iraq was very, very slim... The UN inspectors in Iraq never discovered the WMD the US believed to be there - rather they discovered a country who was devastated by the sanctions, and a country who was not even able to give medical help to their own... The Iraqi regime had by 2002-30 devolved to a regime where everyone was for them selfs. corruption was rampant and millions and millions of dollars, who should have been going to the needy one, was funneled to international banks all over the world - the old regime know they was living on a time scale - and specially the ones with power was absolutely sure they wanted to be able to have a comfortable life, even after Saddam Hussein.. Many bought houses, and had full bank accounts in Switzerland in France - and other comfortable places in the Middle East.. The Emirates was a favorite place for many of them - even when they officially was on Saddam's side in a potential big war in the middle east...
I understood, for a reason already early one that the Iraq war, and specially the connection between 9/11 2001 and the story behind WMDs to be a big lie - Long before the US was sending troops to Iraq, by my own discoveries - and BBC world service, who was critical on their airing for, and against the war against Iraq - they had the famous "curvball" dissected - and as the host at Panorama discovered - it was more questionings than answers there.. The man is by the way still alive, living in southern Germany - under the custody of the german police - and he is scared to hell, because he have been given a few warnings about what will become of him, if the old guards ever got their hands on him.. The iraqi secret police of old, had the habit of really making their victims have a lot of pain - then some pain, and in the end, end up dead.. He have even been on german TV, to complain that he was not given the life he was promised by the CIA over his telling of factories with WMD.. And the now rather infamous tellings about mobile gas laboratories, who was ready to make as much poisons than needed... The trucks was later discovered - in Kurdish Iraq, and had to been digged out of the ground - and off course no WMD was discovered - and in fact, it had been a LONG time since anything like chemical weapons had been on them if ever.. The trucks was later destroyed - in a "mishap" the US occupying forces told...
Clark, the old chief of the anti-terrorism organization inside the Establishment, was pretty clear about how dubious it all was And was in his book, rather clear about how He believed Iraq not to have WMDs - even if he also was unsure about it.. He wanted the UN inspectors to get more time to get the informations - time neither Cheney, Rumsfeld or Wolfowitz was willing to give him, or any others... They WANTED the war regardless of the dubious of the evidences to go to war - and they was able to make it too...
But it should be said - many others, over the whole world was against the War - and Mr Rumsfeld was given a rather cold shower by the german minister, who outright told him, that he was lying when he tried to make the case for war against Iraq in Germany.. Who in 2000-2003 still had some reservations put on them, when it come to sent soldiers in war - it goes back to the constitution of 1949, and the experiences germans had after loosing world war two.. The americans, under Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and other, never got it, why the germans was so against going to war... Mr Rumsfelds was leaving rather fast after the shower he got - and he was leaving Germany faster than he come in - to a more friendly place in UK, where Blair was shumming up to the americans, as they was twins.. He and Bush was the best of friends - and Blair was making a fool of himself - a fool that never was willing to admit, that he was wrong, even when he had many chances to do so... And Blair was going into history as one of the last popular Prime Minister in the US all together - Even though he got elected as one of the most popular Prime Ministers in modern UK History.. And I liked Blair much - before he got into bed with the neo-cons and the Bush administration...
I was not born before after Vietnam ended - so I can not say so much about it - other than the war was a horrible mistake - and that the generals, and the people in the know, already in 1967-68 admitted the war to have been lost - and that the best way had to just leave the country, and let nature take its tour in South Vietnam.. Even LBJ was against the war - but not able to just pull the plug on the war, and get the soldiers home.. He needed just "One decisive victory" to be able to get "the boys home".. He never got that decisive victory - and the war ended first in 1975 at the cost of 3 million Vietnamese civilians and soldiers - and more than 58.000 dead american soldiers.. And most of the area in turmoils it is just getting out of now - more than 40 year after the war ended..
For some reason or another I never trusted Rice, even though I believe she is a smart woman - and not easy fooled.. It is something that I got even true the TV screen, she is an arrogant woman, who will go a long way to get what she want, regardless of what become of the others, that she have to walk on top off.. I sometimes wonder, if the Ghost of past is visiting her - and she feel the ones she walk on top of, their graves... I hope that sometimes her own guilt is waking her up in the nighs - and she look at the Ghost of the horrible things she was doing in Iraq.. And I suspect the others might have the same feeling sometimes, when they wake up in the night, and look at ten of thousands of ghosts who is asking if it was worth it... Some, like Bush jr, I suspect is driking them to silence, just to be able to sleep true the night..
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