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They'll rapidly change their minds DJ13 Sep 2012 #1
Nice callout XemaSab Sep 2012 #2
thank you! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #6
Yeah, I think we do Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #244
what about storage, heating, and refrigeration? storage forms are the issue... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #245
Heating and refrigeration Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #249
We have about a third of an acre and we have planted over 20 trees since we moved in back in 1992. WCGreen Sep 2012 #256
That's one of the drawback with veggie gardens. Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #258
I think what we can grow is a small plot of corn, some bean and peas and WCGreen Sep 2012 #259
sounds pretty sweet... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #262
Conceded. Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #268
All noble and worthwhile goals, in my book... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #271
Not that I'll get any replies, but we're headed for a Plutonomy. That's WORSE than a "gridcrash". Zalatix Sep 2012 #338
Who do you think is best positioned to survive the coming crash? Vincardog Sep 2012 #3
any group with varied talents... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #12
You leave out TexasProgresive Sep 2012 #59
good point... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #63
Whoever has the most guns and ammo Shitty Mitty Sep 2012 #146
worse comes to worse... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #148
And you're unable and unwilling to learn anything about growing food XemaSab Sep 2012 #165
strange... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #166
Do the words XemaSab Sep 2012 #176
I got all but xerofluvent, mesic aeric halaquept, and thermic abruptic durixeralf a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #191
This message was self-deleted by its author littlemissmartypants Sep 2012 #252
The Amish, except that they can't/won't defend themselves. N/T GreenStormCloud Sep 2012 #211
Please no gridcrash.... nt abelenkpe Sep 2012 #4
we're working on it... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #9
Thank you! abelenkpe Sep 2012 #33
sounds good... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #37
I'd rather see high-tech (solar, wind, biomass, etc) and humane farms REP Sep 2012 #5
That's what the aker groups in my area are trying to do... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #7
I'm good with mass manufactured - especially if made here REP Sep 2012 #14
works for me! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #16
Well, you can read a lot of crazy shit on the Internet REP Sep 2012 #26
Amen to that! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #27
Amen! I think if Obama is elected, he will hit wind/solar hard to get our dependence on coal/oil Frustratedlady Sep 2012 #43
I agree. I thought that was what the op was going to be about. robinlynne Sep 2012 #104
Yes, It doesn't have to be as we are or total low tech. There are other options. nt Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #138
I like the idea of robust micro grids a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #142
Me! Me! I want us all to be Amish and sing Kumbaya around the campfire. Speck Tater Sep 2012 #8
If that's your thing, fine. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #10
So you're of two minds on this? randome Sep 2012 #23
nah... mis-linked a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #25
it would give the unemployed something to do BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #11
how about bringing those jobs back, and not relegating others to drudge work? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #13
that would be nice? BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #15
I think it would... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #18
phsyical force, market force BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #61
I call BS on that one... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #66
whatever BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #72
Fact of the matter? Need to? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #75
proof of what BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #78
interesting... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #80
no problem w/ harnessing technology to satisfy human needs BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #89
okay... if that's your story... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #128
FYI...for those who didn't know... littlemissmartypants Sep 2012 #253
Hat-tip to Littlemissmartpants a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #265
you kind of had me .... marasinghe Sep 2012 #332
right... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #335
We already do force folks to work on farms... hunter Sep 2012 #74
and I don't much like that either a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #77
It beats being unemployed. Zalatix Sep 2012 #339
Hey, fuck farmers! XemaSab Sep 2012 #22
Okay... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #24
The Khmer Rouge Forced People to Work on Farms Yavin4 Sep 2012 #49
That's pretty much my reaction... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #52
no, only poor people getting shit wages and living in shacks without running water should do it. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #160
i'll pass, thanks... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #161
I think we should be growing things everywhere we can. porphyrian Sep 2012 #17
We can do roof top and vertical gardens, and then put up blue houses in the desert. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #20
Blue house? Like this...? porphyrian Sep 2012 #28
I was thinking of Blue houses as something that sheds heat, instead of keeping it a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #29
Ah, OK, nice. I like the verticle garden idea for urban areas, too. n/t porphyrian Sep 2012 #31
If we combine the old WWII victory gardens, with vertical farms, we start getting large crops in a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #35
If we get architects onboard, we can manipulate sun exposure through reflective surfaces, too. porphyrian Sep 2012 #38
good point! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #41
I'm not much of a metalurgist, but I wonder if we can make something that uses lightening... porphyrian Sep 2012 #305
or... we could try and use inductance coils around the lightning rod...hooked to a giant capacitor g a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #306
Yeah, could be dangerous. Better get clearance. porphyrian Sep 2012 #307
well... the heat could flash water into steam, running thermocouples or a a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #308
Right, I was thinking a closed system... porphyrian Sep 2012 #322
that's why I suggested the induction coil a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #323
Here's a heatsink that will make electricity at 80% efficiency. kentauros Sep 2012 #301
hmmm... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #303
I don't know enough about electricity, kentauros Sep 2012 #309
you can use capacitors and isolation transformers to "shield" the rest of the circuit from a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #311
Maybe write to Novack kentauros Sep 2012 #313
kentauros... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #315
She's a wise one, then. kentauros Sep 2012 #318
that's out of my price range... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #319
Yeah, we can do that and have "farms" that are 100% dependent on large chemical companies XemaSab Sep 2012 #44
my wife and i have a food garden... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #45
Where will these urban plants get their nutrients from? XemaSab Sep 2012 #46
you're kidding, right? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #48
You really haven't thought this out very far, have you? XemaSab Sep 2012 #53
okay... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #57
Do you even know what clover does? XemaSab Sep 2012 #65
here you go! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #67
WRONG ANSWER! XemaSab Sep 2012 #70
really? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #71
Since your magic solution to the nutrient problem was clover, I asked you if you knew what it did XemaSab Sep 2012 #73
really? where am I wrong? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #76
You didn't supply any "facts" XemaSab Sep 2012 #79
I'm supposed to bow to your "facts" a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #82
Where did you get your degree in soil science from? XemaSab Sep 2012 #83
If we're going to play this game... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #85
I got my degree in soils from Humboldt State University XemaSab Sep 2012 #88
okay then... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #92
This is where a smart man would say "Wow, I really need to stop talking about my ass... XemaSab Sep 2012 #97
glad to see that you are willing to discuss things, in spite of your issues... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #101
what is your obsession with strangers on the internet "forcing" you to do things BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #102
nice clip... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #106
which is better. shedding crocodile tears over dead peasants BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #109
right... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #113
this conversation is a waste of time, even by internet standards BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #118
That's the nicest thing you've said all day! Thank you! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #119
alert a mod if you want BOG PERSON Sep 2012 #120
Why would I alert a mod? you're a fun one... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #122
also... WHY is it okay to force people to leave cities, and go farm, low tech? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #117
The WWII victory gardens were a fairly short-lived event NickB79 Sep 2012 #180
then feel free to show proof. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #194
I didn't realize you were a hippie-puncher, that explains a lot. nt bananas Sep 2012 #124
What can I say? XemaSab Sep 2012 #201
as well as.. nebenaube Sep 2012 #177
This all totally works on a farm that has inherently good soil XemaSab Sep 2012 #178
nebenaube, I think friend X has an agenda... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #192
Where is he wrong? Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #139
You and me both... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #140
I think it has to do with the intensity and scale of the gardening NickB79 Sep 2012 #181
but that's the thing a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #195
Organic farms seem to be able to do it Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #226
With existing organic farms, you're starting with native soil XemaSab Sep 2012 #227
The soil can be improved for vertical farming Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #228
How do you plow on a rooftop? obamanut2012 Sep 2012 #105
I'd add air fixing via lightning, but I like lightning. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #107
Cover crops in containers can be done as well as in your yard Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #141
How about via aquaponics? Autumn Colors Sep 2012 #131
A long time back, I read up on a group called New Alchemy a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #198
My husband has become obsessed Le Taz Hot Sep 2012 #250
start with the 40% of our food that is wasted. called compost. natures been doing it for a while.. piratefish08 Sep 2012 #184
Under this kind of agricultural system XemaSab Sep 2012 #247
Lowes snooper2 Sep 2012 #242
If all of our food is grown in vertical structures, where are the cows going to graze? XemaSab Sep 2012 #246
Um, the cows will graze where they are grazing today.. snooper2 Sep 2012 #275
I'm not sure we can break up the cities down to 2 or 3 floor structures... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #276
I meant on a 10-20 story building snooper2 Sep 2012 #278
Okay...sorry for the misunderstanding... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #283
That's not true. I'm saying that under a system with "roof top and vertical gardens," XemaSab Sep 2012 #280
What if we add those other nitrogen fixers... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #284
Find an exact quote where I said that I wanted to be a dark ages peasant XemaSab Sep 2012 #293
really? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #294
Do you grow your plants in the ground? XemaSab Sep 2012 #295
actually... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #296
I'm done here XemaSab Sep 2012 #297
you've said that before... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #298
Their wish won't happen. bluestate10 Sep 2012 #19
i like it a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #21
Wishful thinking. Machines already do most of the work. joshcryer Sep 2012 #273
Growing tunnels. bluestate10 Sep 2012 #316
sorry, you're going to have to start getting used to the idea that tech driven farming xchrom Sep 2012 #30
okay then... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #32
I want a country of farms that are well positioned to survive climate change and peak oil. kestrel91316 Sep 2012 #34
I think that's totally doable, especially if we rethink how we use urban space... porphyrian Sep 2012 #36
vertical farms, roof top gardens, and turning some parking lots into a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #39
People here are fighting over low-tech, high-tech Marrah_G Sep 2012 #190
Absolutely. The obvious problem is that research is expensive, which is why so much is done... porphyrian Sep 2012 #204
I'll admit, being a long time and hopelessley enmeshed Maker... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #206
would you explain what a Maker is Marrah_G Sep 2012 #215
My apologies for using jargon... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #219
Ahh okay- makes sense now Marrah_G Sep 2012 #224
If you want to get a feel for the size of "the movement" a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #231
"Man the Maker". Aristotle Smickey Sep 2012 #248
I figure Aristotle got something right a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #261
Not a huge fan either. Smickey Sep 2012 #334
Same here... I still remember the burn party. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #337
There's a difference between "want" and "think it's inevitable". GliderGuider Sep 2012 #40
Then you'll pardon me... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #42
Knock yourself, man. I'm growing vegetables. Comrade Grumpy Sep 2012 #47
Same here a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #50
Exactly. I am doing the same. Have for years. nt Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #143
Why spit? Does it help anything, or is is just a display of your own arrogance? GliderGuider Sep 2012 #51
Thank you! I'll take that as a compliment! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #55
I'll even laugh if it succeeds. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #60
ah! the pop-psychology game a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #64
Why do you think they are the problem? GliderGuider Sep 2012 #90
ah... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #93
"Fetish" is your word, not mine. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #99
the unfixable... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #103
My starting point is in the older articles on my web site. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #108
Thanks for the links! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #111
I am a low tech, low energy farmer. The work is relentless, backbreaking and doesn't pay well riderinthestorm Sep 2012 #54
While I admire your work and honesty, I wish I could offer you some labor saving devices... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #56
If the grid did crash... MercutioATC Sep 2012 #127
Frankly, I consider the Deep Ecology people to be delusional romantics. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #58
Odin, I like the way you think... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #62
The native Americans quaker bill Sep 2012 #186
Soylent chomping idiocracy JVS Sep 2012 #68
Okay... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #69
Sorry, I should have said that I expect us to descend into a world like depicted in Idiocracy but... JVS Sep 2012 #91
well... I DO like a good burrito... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #95
"...Now with more MOLECULES!" porphyrian Sep 2012 #100
Then I am starting the noble band of technical guerillas a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #110
As opposed to, you know, regular literacy? XemaSab Sep 2012 #112
That was a fun thread... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #114
I'm good with that. porphyrian Sep 2012 #115
We'll have to have someone write up our guerilla's "little red book" a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #116
as long as we have electrolytes for the plants we will be fine KurtNYC Sep 2012 #202
It's what plants crave. porphyrian Sep 2012 #269
For those of you who freak at grid crash ruffburr Sep 2012 #81
If grid crash happens a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #84
Easy. randome Sep 2012 #86
I can grok that... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #87
I think this betrays a simpler explanation Major Nikon Sep 2012 #175
Makes sense a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #221
"Malcontents" isn't always pejorative Major Nikon Sep 2012 #225
Low tech living is about as far from my utopia is it is possible to get... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #232
This message was self-deleted by its author littlemissmartypants Sep 2012 #254
This topic, through a side door, floated up on another discussion group... Eleanors38 Sep 2012 #94
All good points. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #96
I lived through the rolling blackouts, I'll pass on grid crash, I hate to say it but I wutang77 Sep 2012 #98
This message was self-deleted by its author littlemissmartypants Sep 2012 #255
People who want that tend to forget/ignore something. Ready4Change Sep 2012 #121
In/on other threads, I've mentioned solutions to these problems... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #125
Something for you to consider, MadHound Sep 2012 #123
Good to hear from you! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #126
Certainly we can curtail grid crash with a little work, MadHound Sep 2012 #129
At this point, the movement to re-build the grid makes the big oil/Ag/etc. obsolete... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #130
What percentage of the electricity produced in this country is done by green energy? MadHound Sep 2012 #134
and we can make switch over pretty easily, as I've posted in this and other threads a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #135
I agree with you, technically we can make the sort of switch-over you are talking about, MadHound Sep 2012 #152
hmmm... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #154
A wind turbine, of any size, is not going to go on a standard quarter acre urban home site, MadHound Sep 2012 #162
a solar furnace is a LOT cheaper and more robust than a PV system... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #164
I agree with you. It would take a huge uprising Mojorabbit Sep 2012 #147
This is sort of why I'm working with local people... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #149
if it happens, it won't be from necessity, but because of politics. we are supposedly running HiPointDem Sep 2012 #174
Why is this presented as a certain event? WinkyDink Sep 2012 #132
Okay... I'm confused... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #133
I do not want grid-crash. However, I was born in 1941 on one of those low energy, low tech farms jwirr Sep 2012 #136
the question at hand is... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #137
I don't think that is even a possibility as it was not that way even back then. Until recently the jwirr Sep 2012 #150
I can see some of that a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #151
Now there I can help you. I remember the house parties that my parents went to and sometimes jwirr Sep 2012 #156
and that's where *I* can help YOU... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #157
That is great. You are really making a difference when you do something like that - especially the jwirr Sep 2012 #237
SHHHH!!! You'll blow my cover! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #240
Okay - I like that too. jwirr Sep 2012 #279
My wife says - at times - that I'm studying for two roles a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #282
LOL jwirr Sep 2012 #291
hey... I've got the specs and the belly a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #292
The implications of your question.. sendero Sep 2012 #144
actually, to me, it sounds like more than a fair number want gridcrash... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #145
a lot of people who never actually lived on a farm or had to make a living from one. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #153
bringing in a crop is hard work... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #155
i know (knew) lots of people who did it low tech, and they're unanimously glad it's over. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #158
my wife says "yup, that works" a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #159
i'd be happy with roughly the life of a middle class person in the 50s. HiPointDem Sep 2012 #163
Only if I can hook up wtih the old school a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #167
:>) HiPointDem Sep 2012 #170
to add on... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #171
I lived off grid for 12 mos last year. It wasn't necessarily low tech. FedUpWithIt All Sep 2012 #168
and when did I say off the grid was low tech? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #169
You accused ME of desiring a low tech lifestyle FedUpWithIt All Sep 2012 #183
I never said that I wanted a low tech life style... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #185
Mayan Calendar? Nostradamus? Gridcrash? Y2K? wtmusic Sep 2012 #172
nah... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #173
I want a country of local food farms.... MrMickeysMom Sep 2012 #179
With the ongoing drought in the Midwest, I think we may be seeing at least some return of local a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #189
Ha-Ha... you didn't know... MrMickeysMom Sep 2012 #199
Not a problem... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #200
kick & rec but NO grid crash upi402 Sep 2012 #182
yeah... I'd like to avoid the whole thing... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #197
I have no problem with that. Marrah_G Sep 2012 #187
I don't expect any joy and/or happiness to come out of a Gridcrash... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #188
I absolutely know it will be hard work Marrah_G Sep 2012 #193
If that's your thing... go for it. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #196
I think there can be a mix of tech Marrah_G Sep 2012 #216
Overly simplistic bianary thinking. 99Forever Sep 2012 #203
Oh? Please, say on... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #205
Ahhh yes... 99Forever Sep 2012 #207
As you've accused me of binary thinking... perhaps you'd care to show your evidence? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #208
"Accused?" 99Forever Sep 2012 #209
If it's a problem imagining how we can continue our current power structure... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #210
There's many people already... 99Forever Sep 2012 #213
These reasons are why I still support the Occupy movement a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #217
I'd like to see the implementation of this idea: kentauros Sep 2012 #212
I love it when you talk dirty... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #218
So sez the Thread Dominator kentauros Sep 2012 #223
Thank you, thank you! a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #230
Well, let us know how it works out! kentauros Sep 2012 #266
I have - with the help of my wife - possibly found a flaw with the lights... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #267
Build a Terminator scarecrow. kentauros Sep 2012 #299
I think my neighbors might mind something that targets people... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #300
Okay, makes sense. kentauros Sep 2012 #302
I've got one room in the attic that seems to pulse purple, then green a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #304
Pulse at the same time with yellow and then orange, kentauros Sep 2012 #310
nah... the purple and green is better than a burglar alarm... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #312
Oh, I thought it had more to do kentauros Sep 2012 #314
nope... I'm kind of boring in that regard a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #317
You probably know about this site: kentauros Sep 2012 #320
I know that site quite well... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #321
I'd like to cut back on the books I have, kentauros Sep 2012 #324
we stopped counting at 15,000 a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #325
No philosophy, huh? kentauros Sep 2012 #326
hmmm... could make reading and insulation a mutually exclusive thing. a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #327
That's cool :) kentauros Sep 2012 #328
hmmm... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #330
Seems rather minimal on their part. kentauros Sep 2012 #333
eh... the didn't want to cover the books... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #336
most pot growers all ready know about this..... madrchsod Sep 2012 #257
Okay, kentauros Sep 2012 #260
Rural folks don't Tsiyu Sep 2012 #214
is there a point to your statement? a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #220
No Tsiyu Sep 2012 #222
so, then... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #229
You know, I read a great many of your replies in this thread before I posted Tsiyu Sep 2012 #239
The delay is cool... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #243
Hoping for gridcash here. The Midway Rebel Sep 2012 #233
gerbster? n/t a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #234
After a month of eating cockroaches, you will be begging for gerbster. The Midway Rebel Sep 2012 #235
Hell... I'm pushing for BarterTown with good medical benefits, food a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #236
can't we have a mix of both like we do now? snooper2 Sep 2012 #238
**I** think we can... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #241
This message was self-deleted by its author littlemissmartypants Sep 2012 #251
for your baby chicks... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #263
Not the country quaker bill Sep 2012 #264
Gridcrash? Ignoranuses! Instead of a crash why not advocate for smart grid? We could put a bunch lonestarnot Sep 2012 #270
that's kind of what I'm advocating... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #272
Good. lonestarnot Sep 2012 #274
It doesn't really matter who wants it or who doesn't GliderGuider Sep 2012 #277
ah... the wishes and dreams bit... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #285
I have no problem whatsoever with math. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #287
in that case... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #288
Kunstler is a funny guy. GliderGuider Sep 2012 #289
thank you for the book suggestions... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #290
Pretty much our level of civilization is directly correlated with the amount of energy 4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #281
pretty much... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #286
If that's what you want drthais Sep 2012 #329
I think you misread my interest a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #331
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