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Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:47 PM

 

Legislation would require educators to report potentially dangerous people to police

Source: EastValleyTribune.com

Calling it a key to preventing mass shootings, a House panel voted Wednesday to require teachers and health professionals to report potentially dangerous people to police.
Rep. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, said all the proposals to keep people safe with new regulations on guns or even police in classrooms really won't stop someone from shooting up a school. He said the only thing that really works is stopping it before it happens.
Kavanagh, sponsor of HB 2555, cited reports that various teachers and officials at Pima Community College knew about what was described as bizarre behavior by Jared Calling it a key to preventing mass shootings, a House panel voted Wednesday to require teachers and health professionals to report potentially dangerous people to police.
Rep. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, said all the proposals to keep people safe with new regulations on guns or even police in classrooms really won't stop someone from shooting up a school. He said the only thing that really works is stopping it before it happens.
Kavanagh, sponsor of HB 2555, cited reports that various teachers and officials at Pima Community College knew about what was described as bizarre behavior by Jared Loughner before he killed six and wounded 13 two years ago in a Tucson Safeway parking lot, including then-Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.
The same committee also approved HB 2618 to require additional training of police cadets on identifying those with dangerous mental illness so they can detain those people for additional mental health treatment. before he killed six and wounded 13 two years ago in a Tucson Safeway parking lot, including then-Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords.
The same committee also approved HB 2618 to require additional training of police cadets on identifying those with dangerous mental illness so they can detain those people for additional mental health treatment.

Read more: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/politics/article_08e202bc-7d59-11e2-8dba-001a4bcf887a.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter



Especially true in Loughner's case. The CC he was booted from reguired that he get a note from a mental health professional before he would be considered for re-admission.

33 replies, 3591 views

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Arrow 33 replies Author Time Post
Reply Legislation would require educators to report potentially dangerous people to police (Original post)
Leslie Valley Feb 2013 OP
greiner3 Feb 2013 #1
CreekDog Feb 2013 #27
Scuba Feb 2013 #2
xocet Feb 2013 #11
Brigid Feb 2013 #18
Aerows Feb 2013 #20
PSPS Feb 2013 #3
greiner3 Feb 2013 #4
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #5
cliffordu Feb 2013 #10
bhikkhu Feb 2013 #13
Scuba Feb 2013 #19
Peter cotton Feb 2013 #26
Sunlei Feb 2013 #6
Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #23
davidthegnome Feb 2013 #7
alp227 Feb 2013 #17
broadcaster75201 Feb 2013 #8
cliffordu Feb 2013 #9
dixiegrrrrl Feb 2013 #30
Overseas Feb 2013 #12
Grins Feb 2013 #14
Grins Feb 2013 #15
bemildred Feb 2013 #16
madville Feb 2013 #21
eilen Feb 2013 #22
Leslie Valley Feb 2013 #24
L0oniX Feb 2013 #25
southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #28
lib2DaBone Feb 2013 #29
southernyankeebelle Feb 2013 #33
Live and Learn Feb 2013 #31
lindysalsagal Feb 2013 #32

Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 01:57 PM

1. "...stopping it before it happens."

I like 'Minority Report' too!

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Response to greiner3 (Reply #1)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:11 PM

27. I just wonder how this would stop somebody

If they haven't done anything illegal and guns are as available as ever, then I don't see what this does.

Does a visit from police investigators means they'll get scared and reconsider their plan?

Not sure how this would work.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:00 PM

2. Good idea. Here's my starter list ...

John Boehner
Mitch McConnell
Michele Bachmann
Ron Johnson
Joe Arpaio
Ted Cruz
Donald Trump
Bobby Jindal
John McCain
Lindsey Graham


Please feel free to add.

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:58 PM

11. How about anyone related to George W. Bush?

For example: George P. Bush - he is an up-and-coming potential danger to the world:


Jeb Bush to donors: Help my son

Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush wrote to donors Tuesday asking they back his son George P. Bush’s bid for Texas Land Commissioner.

“Ok, what can I say? I am proud of my son. I hope you will write a personal check to George P. Bush Campaign ,” the former GOP governor wrote, as reported by the Tampa Bay Times.

Last week, George P. Bush filed the campaign paperwork in Texas for someone seeking elected office. His father wrote in the letter that though the election isn’t until 2014, it’s important to get early financial support.

“I am writing to ask that you consider making a personal contribution as he begins his quest for public service,” Jeb Bush, the brother of former President George W. Bush, wrote. “While the election is in 2014, it is important to show early financial support, particularly in a state as big as Texas.”

...

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/83862.html#ixzz2Ll2vBy6j

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:34 PM

18. Here's more:

Bill O'Reilly
Sean Hannity
Rush Limbaugh
Sarah Palin
Rick Scott
Scott Walker

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Response to Scuba (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:06 PM

20. Glen Beck

He's nuttier than a fruitcake and a pecan pie put together.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:01 PM

3. "new regulations on guns ... won't stop someone from shooting up a school"

Rep. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, said all the proposals to keep people safe with new regulations on guns or even police in classrooms really won't stop someone from shooting up a school. He said the only thing that really works is stopping it before it happens.

Um, new regulations on guns would, indeed, help "stop it before it happens." I was going to check this guy's "grade" with the NRA but, amusingly, the NRA has now hidden all of their "grades" from view.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:04 PM

4. "...identifying those with dangerous mental illness..."

"...so they can detain those people for additional mental health treatment."

Holy crap Batman, I'd have been locked up for good 40 years ago!

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:05 PM

5. The problem with this whole approach is that the base rate of bizarre behavior

is much, MUCH higher than the base rate of mass/serial homicide.

Suppose there are 100 mass killings a year in the US, and about 5 in 100 people exhibit worrisome symptoms.

Further suppose that, eliminating women and young children as potential killers, you end up with a total pool of 150 million potential killers (males in the right age groups).

If 5% of those 150 million people are screened in for further examination based on their worrisome symptoms, you have a pool of 6 million potential killers, of whom 100 will actually commit hienous crimes. What are you going to do--treat/confine 6 million in order to stop 100? And that's assuming that your net doesn't let any slip through. It would be remarkable if your net were good enough to identify half of the potential killers (the others not having shown sufficient overt signs to warrant inclusion). So now you are confining or otherwise majorly interfering with 6 million people in order to stop 50 of them. In order to stop one mass murder, you will need to somehow intervene on 120,000 non-killers who "look dangerous" but in fact aren't.

And all of this is a best-case scenario.

About 3% of the population is psychotic (schizophrenic, severely bipolar, etc.), and would surely be among the ones netted up. Yet the incidence of homicide among schizophrenics is about the same as in the general population. You will have spent a whole helluva lot of money & resources rounding up a very large number of people who are at no greater risk of doing horrific things than is the general population.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:51 PM

10. ^^^^^^^^~THIS~^^^^^^^^^

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 04:20 PM

13. True - if I had to report every nutjob-talking-crazy I run across at work

I'd be keeping our police pretty busy. Its partly because I live in a semi-rural RW area, and most of the older generation here is less educated, more inclined to believe whatever they hear on hate-radio, and used to the idea that the average person they run into is receptive to nutjob crazy-talk.

In any case, it definitely requires some competence and judgement from all parties involved. Very likely, I'll be hearing about the program at work as a new Stasi-style, Hitler-youth, Maoist conspiracy to undermine the constitution and outlaw individuality...

on edit - just read reply #7 "this is how it starts..."!!!!

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:40 PM

19. Stop making sense! We should be jailing anyone who looks suspicious. That will stop ...

... a few shootings and make the private prison industry ecstatic.

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Response to Jackpine Radical (Reply #5)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:04 PM

26. +1

 

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 02:11 PM

6. That reporting goes for police and security training 'schools' also right?

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Response to Sunlei (Reply #6)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:30 PM

23. Yes, of course. If they don't seem dangerous,

they don't get in.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:19 PM

7. McCarthyism

Did I spell that right?

Teachers are not, I repeat, NOT mental health professionals. Their job is to teach academics, to maintain control over a classroom. I think they have enough to do as it is, without referring millions of children to police and psychiatrists for "re-education".

Sick. It's sick. The mentally ill are so frequently made the scape goats in these cases. It's assumed that, because someone is mentally ill, their chances of being a psychopathic murderer are much higher. Now unless we redefine mentally ill to mean "total asshole", that's completely inaccurate. Mentally ill people are those who suffer from mental illness, not serial killers, not deranged lunatics who will rape your dogs and steal your toilet paper to wear on their head.

Ugh. This is how it will begin. Next, perhaps you'll be rewarded for informing the authorities of neighbors who have "odd" habits, you know, like they spend too much time alone, watch too much porn... or frequent a forum that's considered politically active, maybe even radical. This is a damned slippery slope.

Treatment? If our facilities for treatment and our professionals were truly competent on an overall scale, these problems would be greatly diminished to begin with. Rather than being the solution, I would argue that our psychiatric industry is a part of the problem. Treating symptoms with drugs, instead of truly attempting to heal the mind, or to cure illness.

Do these officials have any idea just what they're dealing with? Do they understand mental health? Do they know the first thing about the system? I'd suggest researching psychiatric hospitals and the quality of the treatment as well as the way the mentally ill are actually "treated". Try visiting a psych hospital some time. The staff, (this is Nation-wide, as far as I know, with no known exceptions) that is, nurses and psychiatrists both, spend very little time talking to or interacting with patients. They are afraid of the mentally ill, they are suspicious, they are aloof.

As someone who has spent years in therapy, I am all too painfully aware of these things. Now people like me are to be locked up and forcefully treated because we MIGHT go crazy and kill people? I suppose we had better put the whole fucking Country in a psych hospital then.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #7)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:21 PM

17. When I saw "-R" after his name I went "good grief".

I thought Republicans wanted to defend individual freedom from all those government "busy bodies" who snoop in everyone's business...but it's all the more convenient to create a nation of snitches for possibly mentally ill people? And you thought it was crazy for Eagle Forum (Phyllis Schlafly's org) to argue against "mandatory reporting" laws for suspicions of child abuse!

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:43 PM

8. I just don't have the time or energy to report everyone in the Tea Party. Lock me up I guess. n/t

nt

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 03:49 PM

9. My most FAVORITE part....

"The same committee also approved HB 2618 to require additional training of police cadets on identifying those with dangerous mental illness so they can detain those people for additional mental health treatment".

Kind of implies that the individual being detained already HAD 'mental health treatment'

How long can we be detained and "Helped" ? Is due process of any kind at play here?

This smacks of soviet-era "psychological treatment" - grab people off the street and detain them for "additional mental health treatment"

Will I still get my phone call??

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Response to cliffordu (Reply #9)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:50 PM

30. That scares the shit out of me.

Right now, esp in Fla. the police already can bring in someone who is acting "crazy" esp. if that person is making threats, under the Baker Act.
Ala. has similar law.
But the criteria for invol. 72 hour hold is for what a person has done, not what he "might do" at some future point.

What criteria of probability are they going to use to grab someone?
What is the criteria for "dangerous" mental illness vs. "safe" mental illness. All the years I worked in the Mental Health field, there was no way to gauge when a person might go off meds and act out.
There definitely is no way to judge when a person might go ON meds and act out.

Stupid legislation like this will overwhelm the police, for sure.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 04:13 PM

12. Hope they all phone in about Wayne LaPierre !

And Richard Allen Cheney

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 05:03 PM

14. About which the police would do....what?

"to report potentially dangerous people to police"

About which the police would do....what? There's nothing police can do until it it's too late because no crime has been committed (not to mention the big-brother-ism of the whole idea).


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Response to Grins (Reply #14)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 05:05 PM

15. Replying to my own post...

Maybe this is a good idea!

A Dem should stand up an volunteer his support/sponsorship of the bill as long as the state RAISES THE TAXES needed to pay for the enforcement.

There. Dead on arrival.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 07:13 PM

16. May I suggest that turning teachers and health care people into stoolies for the cops

could have pernicious "side effects"? But Oh heck, we don't care about our schools or health care system any more anyway.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 08:12 PM

21. If it saves just one life right?

If it saves just one life right? Isn't that the line we have been hearing about destroying our rights since 9/11

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 09:14 PM

22. My friend is a teacher

and she has reported dangerous people in numerous cases under the mandated child abuse reporter law. And they do nothing about it. I really don't know what the bar is for neglect for CPS, it must be pretty low.

Seriously, she knits and makes up mittens, socks as well as multi sized used clothing in to keep in her closet because children come to school in the winter with no winter coat, in summer/spring clothing, holes in their shoes and no gloves, no hat etc; They stink of cigarette smoke, have had no breakfast. It gets really cold here in Syracuse.

I'm a nurse but don't work with children. However, I have had to report people for elder abuse when I've found medication missing.

Teachers are not qualified to assess mental illness of the type that massacres with a gun. They can spot red flags to refer these kids to the school psychologist for early assessment and intervention. The school district superintendant may just have to hire more than one or two school psychologists and social workers for their district. As it is, teachers have little tools to deal with disruptive students, are given many special needs kids in large classes without adequate support.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sat Feb 23, 2013, 11:54 PM

24. Ok, so that idea won't work

 

What is the solution?

Lincoln was assassinated with a ball and cap single shot pistol.

Kennedy was cut down with a bolt action rifle.

Reagan was wounded by a 6 shot 22 cal. revolver.

And we stand around all day arguing about "assault weapons" and "Hi-cap" magazines and daydream about eliminating all firearms.

The paste is out of that tube people.

Loughner was known to the local authorities. Gifford's staff was aware of him. The college he was expelled from, Pima County Sheriff Dupnik and the Tucson city police dept all had contact with him.

And yet he was able to run free and kill 6 and injure 12 more.

Maybe if it would have saved 6 lives and allowed Gabby to serve in congress it would have been worth a little prevention.

Just my take on it.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:01 PM

25. I'd start with reporting the entire congress ...then move on to the Koch brothers and like ilk. n/t

970 Park Ave NY, NY is a terrorist org.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:24 PM

28. I have lots of worry about this. This is down the road of nazi Germany. We

 

should walk carefully on this road. Today they are asking teachers to report mentally ill people. What will it be tommorrow? Who are the gays? Who are the dems or independs? Who is a catholic, Jew, Muslim? Well you see where we are going. That is how it worked in Nazi Germany and before long you didn't know who to trust.

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Response to southernyankeebelle (Reply #28)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:48 PM

29. Especially since the U.S. is so fond of secret prisons and torture.....

 

Now we have the NDAA (which Mr. Obama claimed he wouldn't sign... but he DID sign).

In 1942 when the Nazis sent officers to SS training.. they gave each officer a puppy.

On graduation day... the Officers were given a command to shoot the puppy in the head.

This example is for people who say.."Well.. if you are not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about".

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Response to lib2DaBone (Reply #29)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 02:40 PM

33. Wow I didn't know that. Before you know it our children will be reporting us.

 

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:53 PM

31. Just another way to lock people up without any real treatment.

The money needs to go to Mental Health research, outreach and real treatments.

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Response to Leslie Valley (Original post)

Sun Feb 24, 2013, 01:53 PM

32. ...at the same time they're trying to take away our tenure, they think we'll report crazies?

THAT is the definition of crazy.

Society is just going to have to decide: Are teachers important, or are we simply well-educated hired help?

Would someone please tell me what I am????????

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