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Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:35 PM

NYC annual murder tally at record low

Source: Bloomberg News

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said Friday that the city is on track to tally its fewest murders on record in 2012 while shootings have hit an 18-year nadir. There have been 414 slayings in New York so far this year, the lowest number since records began being kept in 1963. There were 548 homicides that year. The high-water mark came in 1990 with 2,245. "The fact that the safest big city in America is safer than ever is a testament to the hard work and determination of the men and women who put their lives on the line for us every day - and it also reflects our commitment to doing everything possible to stop gun violence," Bloomberg said.

Read more: http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nyc-annual-murder-tally-at-record-low-2012-12-28



Bloomberg + gun control = lower gun murder rate

yup

106 replies, 8517 views

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Arrow 106 replies Author Time Post
Reply NYC annual murder tally at record low (Original post)
jpak Dec 2012 OP
Jamaal510 Dec 2012 #1
hack89 Dec 2012 #8
CreekDog Dec 2012 #13
hack89 Dec 2012 #15
CreekDog Dec 2012 #18
hack89 Dec 2012 #19
CreekDog Dec 2012 #20
hack89 Dec 2012 #21
CreekDog Dec 2012 #23
hack89 Dec 2012 #24
CreekDog Dec 2012 #25
hack89 Dec 2012 #40
CreekDog Dec 2012 #45
hack89 Dec 2012 #49
CreekDog Dec 2012 #53
hack89 Dec 2012 #55
CreekDog Dec 2012 #57
hack89 Dec 2012 #60
Bay Boy Dec 2012 #84
CreekDog Dec 2012 #93
stevenleser Dec 2012 #29
Hassin Bin Sober Dec 2012 #35
bongbong Dec 2012 #37
hack89 Dec 2012 #59
bongbong Dec 2012 #91
hack89 Dec 2012 #92
DevonRex Dec 2012 #36
hack89 Dec 2012 #42
LTX Dec 2012 #44
hack89 Dec 2012 #54
CreekDog Dec 2012 #47
kwassa Dec 2012 #81
hack89 Dec 2012 #88
former9thward Dec 2012 #90
CreekDog Dec 2012 #94
former9thward Dec 2012 #95
CreekDog Dec 2012 #98
former9thward Dec 2012 #100
CreekDog Dec 2012 #103
Yavin4 Dec 2012 #22
Recursion Dec 2012 #66
Yavin4 Dec 2012 #79
bossy22 Dec 2012 #9
NYC_SKP Dec 2012 #26
hughee99 Dec 2012 #2
Kolesar Dec 2012 #4
villager Dec 2012 #3
hack89 Dec 2012 #12
CreekDog Dec 2012 #14
hack89 Dec 2012 #16
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #28
bettyellen Dec 2012 #30
villager Dec 2012 #32
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #34
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #38
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #43
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #72
Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2012 #78
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #86
villager Dec 2012 #80
hack89 Dec 2012 #41
CreekDog Dec 2012 #46
hack89 Dec 2012 #48
CreekDog Dec 2012 #51
hack89 Dec 2012 #50
CreekDog Dec 2012 #52
hack89 Dec 2012 #56
CreekDog Dec 2012 #58
hack89 Dec 2012 #61
CreekDog Dec 2012 #63
hack89 Dec 2012 #69
CreekDog Dec 2012 #62
hack89 Dec 2012 #64
CreekDog Dec 2012 #65
hack89 Dec 2012 #71
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #70
hack89 Dec 2012 #73
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #74
hack89 Dec 2012 #75
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #76
hack89 Dec 2012 #77
kwassa Dec 2012 #83
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #85
hack89 Dec 2012 #87
friendly_iconoclast Dec 2012 #104
former9thward Dec 2012 #89
RetroLounge Dec 2012 #96
former9thward Dec 2012 #97
friendly_iconoclast Jan 2013 #105
hack89 Dec 2012 #5
Paladin Dec 2012 #10
hack89 Dec 2012 #11
Ohio Joe Dec 2012 #17
kwassa Dec 2012 #82
happyslug Dec 2012 #6
downandoutnow Dec 2012 #7
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #27
downandoutnow Dec 2012 #33
JackRiddler Dec 2012 #39
Recursion Dec 2012 #67
JoeyT Dec 2012 #31
graham4anything Dec 2012 #102
Recursion Dec 2012 #68
Zax2me Dec 2012 #99
graham4anything Dec 2012 #101
Nine Jan 2013 #106

Response to jpak (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:37 PM

1. If anybody is still skeptical about whether gun control works,

all you have to do is point to NYC.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:11 PM

8. So what lessons do Chicago, Philly and DC teach us?

their gun control laws are just as strong.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:54 PM

13. Pennsylvania has famously weak gun control

you can peddle the propaganda here, but if you lie, we will call you on it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #13)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:57 PM

15. Don't want to talk about Chicago and DC? Don't blame you. nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #15)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:10 PM

18. i want to talk about why you tried to pull a fast one on people here.

and I didn't lie. you did.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #18)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:12 PM

19. So I was wrong about Philly. I am right about Chicago and DC

and you know it.

And we can add other cities to the list if you want to play silly ass games. How about Detroit?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #19)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:27 PM

20. you're saying that one or two exceptions means gun control doesn't work?

can you name a medicine or antibiotic that works 100 percent of the time?

can you name a good medicine or treatment that works 80 percent of the time?

and Los Angeles' homicide rate is ranked 41st among American cities. 41st rank for the 2nd largest American city.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #20)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:36 PM

21. Did you see what the police commissioner said was the difference

between NY and those other cities?

As Kelly noted on these pages in October, “If we had Chicago’s murder rate, total would be 1,224. If we had Philadelphia’s, 1,483; at Baltimore’s rate, 2,338 — and at Detroit’s, 3,635.”

Kelly rightly attributes his success to aggressive law-enforcement tactics, including stop-and-frisk, the routine searching of people the police suspect are carrying illegal weapons or other contraband.

Chicago and Detroit don’t perform stop-and-frisks; Philadelphia used the tactic, but its hands have been cuffed by the courts this year — to predictable results.


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/fruits_of_stop_and_frisk_rxQSaUSfCuIdlM5zY9rUjP

According to ccrjustice.org, 685,724 stops were made in New York City in 2011; 88% of those stopped were not charged with any crime; 84% of those stopped were African-American or Latino.


http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/14/stop-and-frisk-racist-and-ineffective/

So we have a mayor who calls the police his "personal army" and a police commissioner who implements racial profiling.

And this is your model for the rest of the country? OK

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Response to hack89 (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:56 PM

23. again, you are basing your argument on one example to prove a trend

a dishonest tactic from a poster who has used dishonesty in this very thread to attempt to convince others of points that can't be supported by the truth.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:35 PM

24. So give me a city that did not use racial profiing

to get similar results.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #24)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:39 PM

25. San Francisco, with a homicide rate of 5.9, lower than NYC

and a daytime population far in excess of its full time population --much like NYC.

but that's just one example.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #25)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:43 AM

40. But Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Cincinnati, Newark, Los Angeles and DC

Are all large cities in states with strict gun control laws. All have high murder rates.

As for California - Oakland which is right across the bay from SF has a murder rate over 20 with exactly the same gun control laws.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #40)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:08 AM

45. i asked you if your standard for effective gun control is that 100% correlation?

is that also your standard for medicine? does effective medicine work 100% of the time?

Your list of cities with strict gun control:

Boston murder rate: 11.3 (distance to loose laws in New Hampshire: 28 miles)
Chicago murder rate: 15.9 (distance to loose laws in Indiana: 14 miles)
Detroit murder rate: 34.3 (Michigan has lax gun laws, you are being dishonest again)
Cincinnati murder rate: 20.5 (Ohio has lax gun laws, you are being dishonest again)
Newark murder rate: 32.5
Washington DC murder rate: 21.9 (distance to loose gun laws in Virginia: 1 Washington Metro stop away)

And now...

Okay, you bring up California, and its strict gun laws, but you only want to talk about two cities (one of them, Los Angeles, undermines your case by the way):

let's look the murder rate for all CA cities above 250,000 in population (and rank among those cities):

Anaheim 2.1 (tied for 5th best of 74)
San Jose 2.1 (tied for 5th best of 74)
San Diego 2.2 (7th best of 74)
Riverside 3.0 (8th best of 74)
Sacramento 4.2 (16th best of 74)
San Francisco 5.9 (25th best of 74)
Long Beach 6.9 (28th best of 74)
Los Angeles 7.6 (33rd best of 74)
=Median US City murder rate: 7.8=
Santa Ana 8.2 (39th best of 74)
Bakersfield 9.9 (50th best of 74)
=Average US City murder rate: 11.2=
Fresno 14.4 (44th best of 74)
Stockton 16.8 (60th best of 74)
Oakland 22.0 (69th best of 74)

So what you're saying is that you only want to count Oakland and Los Angeles to prove your point? What you don't want us to do is consider all the cities, including San Francisco, San Jose, etc. I assume you don't take us for complete idiots and you'd like to convince us --how do you expect that to work out what with your lies and laughable premises here?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:18 AM

49. So gun control is the reason for low murder rates in some CA cities

but completely irrelevant when we have high murder rates?

It is almost as if there is no correlation between gun laws and murder rates. As it it was a complex social issue that transcends the simplistic anti-gun memes you like to.peddle.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #49)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:28 AM

53. but there is a correlation, you just think that if it's not 100% correlation, it's zero

there is a correlation between murder rates, gun deaths and the strictness of gun laws combined with the level of gun ownership.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #53)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:33 AM

55. Illegal gun ownership you mean?

isn't the difference between safe and unsafe CA cities the level of criminal gang activity?

Because they all have identical gun laws.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #55)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:37 AM

57. and to your lies? please address your lies about Ohio and Michigan gun laws here

in this thread, you lied about those gun laws.

are you going to deal with that or does everyone have to assume that every argument you make here is equally as unreliable and dishonest?

at what point do you actually start harming the fight against gun control because poster after poster becomes convinced that your posts are so dishonest that they will assume the opposite of what you are saying or arguing is true?

now what of your dishonest posts here! i keep asking and you keep pretending they didn't happen?

what is next? the self-delete?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #57)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:42 AM

60. Still avoiding the awkward question I see. nt

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #45)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 05:38 PM

84. What determines a state having lax gun laws?

Michigan in particular.

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Response to Bay Boy (Reply #84)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:22 PM

93. Hack89 was calling the gun laws in OH and MI tough, like Ny, NJ and CA

But that's comparing states with almost no restrictions to states with comprehensive and strong ones.

Hack89 even conceded PA doesnt have strict gun laws after saying they did.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #23)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 06:25 PM

29. Yes, see below from Yavin4, and that is the issue. NYC doesnt border a state with lax gun control

laws. That helps us here get rid of guns. The other large cities dont have that. Philadelphia is smack in the middle of a state with lax gun control laws, DC is is affected by an influx of guns from Virginia that has no gun control. Chicago is a short ride from both Iowa and Indiana both of which have lax gun control.

Stop and Frisk also has an effect, but there are much better ways of doing that which do not involve racial profiling.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:38 PM

35. That really pisses me off when gun trolls pull that "Chicago has a handgun ban" crap.

Chicago Literally touches Indiana. Or you can just head out to the suburbs where gang-banger straw-buying has been going on for decades.

Back in the 90's there was a young rookie cop killed in the line of duty that lead to investigations of the gun shops in the near south suburbs. I forget the statistics but there was an ALARMING amount of gun crimes traced back to a handful of gun stores. Chicago sent investigators posing as gang straw-purchasers and the stores willingly sold guns to people admitting to buying for gangs.

Same scenario for Mexico. "But Mexico has strict gun laws!!!" Never mind the thousands of guns flowing in to Mexico from Arizona etc.

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Response to Hassin Bin Sober (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 09:53 PM

37. Gun liars

 

I'm seeing more and more straight-out lies from the gun humpers. They're getting nervous about limits being put on their Precious.

None too soon!

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Response to bongbong (Reply #37)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:39 AM

59. There will be no meaningful changes

you can bet on it.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #59)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:15 PM

91. I'll bet on something else

 

That your check from the NRA is bigger this month.

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Response to bongbong (Reply #91)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:19 PM

92. Not as big as yours I would imagine.

you do much to help the cause - I hope you get the recognition you deserve.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #29)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:43 PM

36. Thank You!!!! This is it!

This is the only thing that makes the difference. JFC, ATF has known that is the cause for decades. There is not one damn thing a single city can do if it's lost in a sea of lax gun laws. Good lord, the stories I could tell.

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Response to stevenleser (Reply #29)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:08 AM

42. Poverty, crime, drugs, gangs and desperation the issue here

fix them and the availability of guns becomes irrelevant.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:57 AM

44. Of course --

Anything and everything except the guns. We must first fix all of humanity's frailties. We must first develop some type of 300 million person "mental health" registry that will, presumably, label citizens as good or bad, and will for the first time in history be a magical predictor of violent behavior. We must first eliminate poverty. We must first eliminate drugs and gangs. We must first eliminate "desperation" (whatever the hell that means).

The gunners say on the one hand that the same evil government against which they must protect themselves by way of their collections of JackMaster-400's and their boxes of bullets must also, on the other hand, perfect mankind through enormous and intrusive programs that will identify in advance the miscreants among us and eliminate poverty, crime, drugs, gangs, and existential angst.

And the gunners make these arguments with no apparent shame.

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Response to LTX (Reply #44)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:28 AM

54. I think government can fix those problems.

unlike you I have not given up.

Violent crime is an easy problem to fix. Focus the legal system on violent offenders and put them a way for a long time. End the war on drugs and stop jailing nonviolent offenders. Make using a gun when committing a crime a ticket to a long staying jail. Let's take the easy steps first.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:28 AM

47. the issue in this thread is your continuing effort to lie to other posters about gun laws

as well as crime rates.

based on that, readers here should immediately discount any statement or conclusion you make.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #42)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:57 PM

81. Washington, DC. 479 murders in 1990, this year we've reached only 87.

A bit of a drop.

Hardly the murder capital anymore.

http://homicidewatch.org/2012/12/26/2012-in-review/

This is an historic year in D.C. For the first time since 1963, fewer than 100 people have been killed in our city. While we continue to mourn those who have been killed, we must celebrate and reflect on the lives not lost. On the violence avoided.

In an interview with Homicide Watch D.C., Police Chief Cathy Lanier spoke about the decline.

“When I think about the number from where I started from in 1990 when we had 479, it seems dramatic,” she said. “I’ve said since ‘07 our tipping point is less than 100 and we can do it. But I still think about 82 families who have lost somebody. So it’s certainly not, it’s not victory. But it feels like a good milestone for us. I think we passed the tipping point.”

As of this writing, 87 people have been killed in DC in 2012.


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Response to kwassa (Reply #81)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:39 PM

88. I know - people don't appreciate just how far murder rates have fallen. nt

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #18)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:13 PM

90. Since you love to call other posters liars

Does Philly have the same gun laws as PA?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #90)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:43 PM

94. Philly cannot by law have stricter gun regulation than PA

the poster who first said they had strong laws then said they did not now agrees with me.

and if the best you can do is defend a lie, then you aren't doing very well.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #94)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:47 PM

95. It seems the PA Supreme Court disagrees with you.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #95)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:12 PM

98. the point stands regardless of a "lost and stolen" provision in local statutes

Pennsylvania laws forbid the city from enacting laws which regulate or restrict weapons beyond state law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Pennsylvania

but you are only here to 1) undermine a gun control discussion and 2) to defend a poster who posts to the right of nearly every DU member.

ironically this morning you said that you were a liberal and bristled when you were called a conservative --yet here you are, not only defending a conservative, but defending the lies they are spreading.

if you're a liberal, you are pretty lousy at it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #98)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:49 AM

100. If you are a liberal you are one of the most intolerant I have seen.

"but you are only here to 1) undermine a gun control discussion and 2) to defend a poster who posts to the right of nearly every DU member." I am here to provide facts as I see them. Facts are few and far between in the gun discussion which is fueled by 100% emotion. I don't do a political litmus test on posters before I reply to them. I will leave that to you and others.

You are wrong about the Philly gun laws but you can't admit that because you have already gone out on the limb and called others "liars". The PA Supreme Court upheld not just one but three laws which were challenged by the NRA because they were more restrictive than state law. Your Wiki entry is beyond useless because it is not written by judges or lawyers. Any attorney who used a Wiki citation in a court brief would be tossed out of the courtroom. I won't call you a "liar" however because posters make mistakes, including me, and they are not intentional. Not everything on a discussion board that is a mistake is a lie.

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Response to former9thward (Reply #100)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 12:55 PM

103. the argument Hack made was that Philly had tough gun laws, which they don't, period.

This was the false foundation of his argument and he gave up on it once I confronted him on the fact that it was false.

Hack admitted it.

What I've said is true.

You are trying to make this thread about something else.

As for "tolerance". I know plenty of Republicans and talk to them all the time, sometimes even about politics --I perfectly tolerate their opinions.

It's not your opinions I don't tolerate.

It's that you have the opinions of a Republican while pretending to be a liberal like we are.

And you're not. It's that which bugs me in the context of you fighting Obama from the right, spewing right wing talking points, and working against social programs and principles common to nearly all members here.

While telling me to my face that you are in fact a liberal.

I even tolerate insults, I just will not tolerate that you think I'm too stupid to recognize them as insulting.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #8)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 04:52 PM

22. I Can Talk about DC. I grew up there.

It doesn't matter what DC does on guns. VA, a subway ride away, has lax laws. You can just skip over the state border and buy all the guns you want.

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Response to Yavin4 (Reply #22)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:15 AM

66. You mean VA, with its *much* lower murder rate?

Yes, neighboring jurisdictions with much lower murder rates do not ban gun possession. That tells me something.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #66)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 01:57 PM

79. Tells Me That VA Does Not Have The Same Socio-Economic Factors Driving Gun Violence

that DC does.

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Response to Jamaal510 (Reply #1)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:32 PM

9. nope

gun control had very little to do with it. I'd have to say most of the thanks should go to gentrification that started in the 1980's- I've seen entire neighborhoods go from gangs to families in less then a generation.

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Response to bossy22 (Reply #9)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 05:44 PM

26. Yup. nt

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:38 PM

2. It must be because of the smaller sodas.

A big victory for NYC's "stop and frisk" policy, I guess.

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Response to hughee99 (Reply #2)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:01 PM

4. One fifth of the number of murders there used to be

Good point about the "stop and frisk" policy.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 01:38 PM

3. Cue the NRA's snark-bots!

n/t

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Response to villager (Reply #3)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:48 PM

12. While we are waiting for them, perhaps you can explain

how cities like Chicago, DC and Philadelphia with equally strict gun control have some of the highest murder rates in the country. Thanks in advance.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #12)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:56 PM

14. Philadelphia doesn't have strict gun control --oh, they'd like to, but the state forbids it

why do you insist on lying?

are you unable to make a good argument by telling the truth?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #14)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:58 PM

16. That still leaves Chicago and DC. How do you explain their murder rates? nt

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Response to hack89 (Reply #16)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 06:22 PM

28. DC is a short ride from VA, which has lax gun control

And Chicago is surrounded by suburbs with little or no gun control.

But you knew this, right?

Why so dishonest?

RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:36 PM

30. yep, NJ also has strict gun control... and the most violent parts are adjacent to PA.

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #28)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:53 PM

32. Exactly. These areas are smack-dab next to NRA wet-dream zones.

Mix in economic implosion, let the guns flow, and the blood is right behind....

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Response to villager (Reply #32)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:23 PM

34. so, we ban the guns and continue to watch the economic implosion . . .

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #34)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 11:40 PM

38. Yeah, that's exactly what he DIDN'T say



RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #38)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:09 AM

43. no shit Sherlock. notice the question mark at the end of my Question.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #43)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:49 AM

72. No, I didn't, I noticed you making shit up

Try to keep up, the other NRA supporters are miles ahead of you.

RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #72)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:26 PM

78. thank-you, Mr. Snark. Your condescending attitude is duly noted.

go write another poem.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #78)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:25 PM

86. Ooh, now THAT is really quite the come-back...

You're so very second tier.

All the first-tier gun-nutz post their drivel, and then you jump right in with your ususal "yeah, what he said" agreement.

It's pretty funny.

RL

p.s. Sorry, did not not snark / rhyme enough for you?

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #34)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:43 PM

80. ideally, we tackle both....

n/t

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:55 AM

41. Yet VA has a much lower murder rate then DC so how can it be the guns?

wouldn't all those lax gun laws resulte in more gun violence?

Could it be that DC is where the poverty, crime, drugs and gangs are? That is people that are the issue here?

And what is your excuse for Chicago?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 09:13 AM

46. minutes away from lax gun laws in Indiana

not saying gun laws are the full explanation --just dealing with your contention that gun laws are strong in the surrounding area --they aren't. the surrounding area is in large part in Indiana, practically at the border of Chicago.

also, Retrolounge explained this to you in this very thread but you chose to ignore it.

or are you being dishonest again (even though we can all see it plainly)? maybe you are being dishonest, because you've peddled lies throughout this thread, continually characterizing numerous cities as having strict gun laws only to have that proven false, see: Cincinnati, Detroit, and Philadelphia.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:11 AM

48. One thing we do know

every city has seen significant drops in gun violence over the past 30 years. Even as gun laws have become more lax and gun ownership has increased.

So we know it is complex issue that transcends the simplistic meme of "more guns equals more violence".

NY sees racial profiling as the solution. I see the solution as drug legalization, jobs and education.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #48)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:23 AM

51. one thing we know: you continually post lies to win arguments

that's one thing we all know now.

your misrepresentation and perhaps outright lying about gun laws in states shows a contempt for DUers that are reading your posts.

you've done it again and again.

lied about gun laws in Philly, Detroit, and Cincinnati. in different posts, not just one.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #46)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:22 AM

50. So those surrounding areas have equally high rates of violence

due to their lax gun laws? Isn't your equation a simple one: "easy gun availability = more gun deaths"?

Here we have all these areas in America with lax gun laws and low murder rates. How is that possible?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #50)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:24 AM

52. before we move on, what about your lies about the gun laws in Michigan and Ohio?

added to the one you started this thread out with, Philadelphia.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #52)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:37 AM

56. All those states have enjoyed historic drops in gun violence

like the rest of the country. Looks like their laws are working just fine.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:39 AM

58. you said they had strict gun laws, you are lying

or ignorant of the topic you were posting about.

which is it?

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #58)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:44 AM

61. If they work then they are strict enough.

and they appear to be working just fine.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #61)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:50 AM

63. everyone sees your other posts, they know you are dissembling

you are completely discrediting the argument against gun control through very obvious dishonest and false arguments.

people will walk away from this thread and automatically give less credit to anti-gun control arguments because of what you've done in this thread.

you have HARMED the people whose rights you think you are protecting.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #63)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:45 AM

69. And you hurt your cause by refusing to acknowledge

that states with lax gun control laws also enjoyed historic drops in gun violence. The meme of "more guns = more gun violence" has been discredited

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Response to hack89 (Reply #56)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:47 AM

62. you still won't talk about the lies you posted about Ohio and Michigan

while using those lies to convince people that gun control was ineffective.

you are afraid to even mention it at this point, because after admitting to getting Philadelphia gun laws wrong, to have to admit it in two of your other, later examples will just blow your argument out of the water and shred your credibility.

so keep pretending you didn't post the falsehoods.

i'll keep reminding you of it.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #62)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:52 AM

64. And you will keep ignoring the awkward issue

that states with lax gun laws have also enjoyed historic drops in gun violence. How is that possible?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #64)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 10:59 AM

65. gun control is MORE likely because of the way you've argued in this thread

you have harmed your movement.

you have decreased support for your ideas on DU by putting forward arguments that were easily shown to be false and even deliberate attempts to pull fast ones on fellow DUers.

whatever question you ask of me, is likely complete BS based on your tactics in this thread and everyone will see that.

if you want me to answer all your questions, start with coming clean about why you posted false information here about PA, OH and MI gun laws.

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Response to CreekDog (Reply #65)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:49 AM

71. There will be no significant gun control legislation.

they will introduce some bills that will die in the republican controlled House.

Have you seen where House Dems are already backing away from an AWB and proposing just a ban on high capacity mags because they know they need repuke votes?

Savor that feeling of righteousness you are feeling right now - that as good as it will get for you.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #41)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:48 AM

70. My excuse for chicago?

First, hack, learn the difference between Excuse and Possible Explanation.

Next, Try reading what I already wrote for a change, hack.

"And Chicago is surrounded by suburbs with little or no gun control."

Nice try, hack.

RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #70)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:52 AM

73. Yet Chicago has enjoyed historic drops in gun violence

since the early 1990's with those gun laws in neighboring areas in place. How is that possible?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #73)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:54 AM

74. I answered the question you ignored above.

Keep lying and dissembling your lies...

It's enjoyable to watch.

RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #74)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:09 PM

75. And I showed the illogic of your answer.

so tell me what role those weak gun laws played when Chicago's gun deaths steadily fell for 20 years.

You say Chicago has a gun problem because of the towns around them. Yet their "problem" has never been better. So those lax gun laws have caused no harm have they?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #75)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:12 PM

76. You only think you did



RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #76)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 12:22 PM

77. The facts speak for themselves

that is always the issue with anti-gun folks like you. Your response to guns is emotional not rational. You never bother to dig into the statistics and trends.

You will never admit that you have never been safer because you cannot reconcile that hard fact with your emotions.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 05:31 PM

83. I'm not certain that your conclusions are complete, either. There are causes beyond the ones

mention. It is a complicated set of ideas that interact with one another.

The Rise and Decline of Homicide—and Why
Annual Review of Public Health

Abstract

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.publhealth.21.1.505

A dramatic rise in homicide in the latter half of the 1980s peaked during the 1990s and then declined at an equally dramatic rate. Such trends in homicide rates can be understood only by examining rates in specific age, sex, and racial groups. The increase primarily involved young males, especially black males, occurred first in the big cities, and was related to the sudden appearance of crack cocaine in the drug markets of the big cities around 1985. This development led to an increased need for and use of guns and was accompanied by a general diffusion of guns into the larger community. The decline in homicide since the early 1990s has been caused by changes in the drug markets, police response to gun carrying by young males, especially those under 18 years old, the economic expansion, and efforts to decrease general access to guns, as well as an increase in the prison population and a continued decline in homicide among those over age 24. The lessons learned from the recent homicide trends and the factors associated with them have important implications for public health and the criminal justice system.



One additional reason for lower homicide numbers is better medical care for gunshot wounds.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324712504578131360684277812.html

BALTIMORE—The number of U.S. homicides has been falling for two decades, but America has become no less violent.

Crime experts who attribute the drop in killings to better policing or an aging population fail to square the image of a more tranquil nation with this statistic: The reported number of people treated for gunshot attacks from 2001 to 2011 has grown by nearly half.
......................................

In other words, more people in the U.S. are getting shot, but doctors have gotten better at patching them up. Improved medical care doesn't account for the entire decline in homicides but experts say it is a major factor.

Emergency-room physicians who treat victims of gunshot and knife attacks say more people survive because of the spread of hospital trauma centers—which specialize in treating severe injuries—the increased use of helicopters to ferry patients, better training of first-responders and lessons gleaned from the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan.


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Response to hack89 (Reply #77)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:22 PM

85. Yeah, those 20 kids were safe too

until they weren't...

MORE GUNS!!!!



RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #85)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:38 PM

87. I am not arguing for more guns.

I doubt you even know what I think on the issue of gun control.

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #85)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:06 PM

104. When backed into a corner- Lovejoy!

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #28)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 06:53 PM

89. You can try and fool other posters but you can't fool me.

I used to live in Chicago and also the surrounding suburbs. What exactly do you mean by "little or no gun control"?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #89)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 07:54 PM

96. I also grew up in Chicago, and the laws used to be a lot less restrictive

But you are correct, and I did some more digging and found I was wrong

Most suburbs followed Chicago's recent lead and banned handguns or restricted them.

Morton Grove, Evanston, Highland Park to name a few.

But Isn't Indiana less restrictive and less than an hour away?

RL

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #96)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 08:01 PM

97. Yes IN is.

But if you are an out of state resident then federal laws apply and you can't buy guns generally without going through a FFL dealer in your home state. Now if you are going to say people violate the law and do private purchases -- yes of course they do. Just as they do with illegal drugs or pretty much anything else.

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Response to RetroLounge (Reply #28)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 02:32 PM

105. Houston has 1/2 the murder rate of Chicago, with few gun restrictions

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:09 PM

5. Fruits of stop-and-frisk

As Kelly noted on these pages in October, “If we had Chicago’s murder rate, total would be 1,224. If we had Philadelphia’s, 1,483; at Baltimore’s rate, 2,338 — and at Detroit’s, 3,635.”

Kelly rightly attributes his success to aggressive law-enforcement tactics, including stop-and-frisk, the routine searching of people the police suspect are carrying illegal weapons or other contraband.

Chicago and Detroit don’t perform stop-and-frisks; Philadelphia used the tactic, but its hands have been cuffed by the courts this year — to predictable results.


http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/editorials/fruits_of_stop_and_frisk_rxQSaUSfCuIdlM5zY9rUjP

When you regard the police as your personal army and disregard civil rights then anything is possible I guess.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #5)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:39 PM

10. There Were 20 First Graders Whose Civil Rights Were Disregarded, Recently.


Happened in a town in Connecticut a few days ago; maybe you heard about it......

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Response to Paladin (Reply #10)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:43 PM

11. Are you familiar with stop and frisk?

the police stop people that look "wrong" or "suspicious" and conduct a pat down search. Purely by chance they mostly have non-white skins.

Do you think police should have the power to stop and search people based purely on a whim? Amazing how guns seem to bring out the authoritarian side of liberals. Here we have progressives ready to go down on a man who called the police his "personal army". Amazing.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #11)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:59 PM

17. I think it is more then mostly

From a few paragraphs into the article:

"According to ccrjustice.org, 685,724 stops were made in New York City in 2011; 88% of those stopped were not charged with any crime; 84% of those stopped were African-American or Latino."

And the start of the very next paragraph:

"Did you know that guns are found in less than .02% of stops? So while it may be getting a few guns off the street and save a few lives, it’s at the cost of violating a targeted group’s Constitutional rights."

http://tv.msnbc.com/2012/12/14/stop-and-frisk-racist-and-ineffective/

Stop and frisk is simply a racist policy.

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Response to Ohio Joe (Reply #17)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 05:09 PM

82. on the other side of this, because of stop-and-frisk

only 0.02% are foolish enough to be carrying guns on them. That was the original intent of the law, as I read it years ago. Get people to stop carrying guns on their persons.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:09 PM

6. So New York went from BELOW the national average in Murder, to the top, then down?

Notice the peak year is 1990, Gun Control peaked in 1968 with the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. With that act, the Murder rate went UP. As Congress weakened that act in the 1980s, it lead to a DROP in murder after 1990. The effect of any law is often 5-10 years later, thus the 1968 Act full affect started around 1975-1980, the full effect of the drop in Gun Control in the early 1980s, came if effect with the drop in murder rate after 1990.

Side note: It has been extremely hard to get a hand gun permit in New York State since the Passage of the Sullivan Act in 1912 (a product of the New York State Legislature). Similar restrictions on owning pistols have been on the books in New York State since about the same time period. The vast majority of weapons used in crimes in New York, before and after the passage of the Federal Gun Control Act of 1968 has been illegal under New York State Law, and after 1968, illegal under Federal Law.

Now, before I go into an argument that Gun Control had no effect, the Studies I have read all pointed out the raise and drop in the murder rate do NOT correlate with increase (or decrease) Gun Control laws, increase prison sentences (or decrease prison sentences) etc. There is one report that shows a slight connection with Abortion, but it appears to be more coincidence then a real connection (restrictions on Abortions staring in the 1980s did NOT seem to have an affect on the murder rate).

The two trends that seems to have affect is the migration of African Americans to northern urban centers starting in the 1920s and increase spending on Children and Youth starting in the 1960s. These trends are 15-20 years trends but seems to be the answer.

Migration of African Americans from the Rural South to Urban Northern Cities.

The vast majority of African Americans lived in the rural South prior to WWII, they started to immigrant north during WWI, and this accelerated during and after WWII (For example Mississippi was Majority African American in the late 1880s till the 1930s, then became majority white). These African American lived in and were the product of the American South. Historically the American South had the highest Murder rate in the Country. In fact if you remove the South AND African Americans from the Murder counts, US Murder rate is lower then Europe's.

African Americans of the 1880-1940 period were a product of this Southern tradition of violence. This culture was a product of who settled the South (former Herders from Scotland, England and Ireland) whose traditions were never to take an insult without a response, to response to any perceived act of "disrespect" with violence and to seek violence revenge if someone did that person "harm" (including slights and other interactions that most people laugh off). This culture of violence started with who settled the South, but made worse by the introduction of Slavery, which required instantaneous violence to prevent any widespread slave revolt.

The post Civil War era did NOT see a reduction in violence (even when firearms were outlawed). African American were both victims of this culture AND part of that culture and thus absorbed those norms, as norms within the African American Community. The African Americans who moved North, starting during WWI, brought with them this culture of violence.

While I am concentrating on African Americans, you also see this in Southern Whites who moved North. Southern Whites had two advantages over African Americans, first, most of the Southern Whiles did NOT come from the deep South (As did most of the African Americans), but the more marginal areas of the south (such as Appalachian). In these marginal areas the Southern culture of violence was not as deep and thus easier for these Southern Whiles to adopt Northern Standards. The Second reason is Southern Whites were better able to mix with people already in the Northern Cities and thus were quicker able to absorb Northern Traditions (i.e. you had better mixing of Appalachian Hillbillies, with other foreign immigrants AND other whites from the rural areas of the North then between any of these three groups with African Americans).

This is complicated for statistics were race based NOT where the person who did the crime come from, thus a lot of ex-Southerns acts of violence was called "violence by whites" (and thus diluted by white population from other areas of the US and from overseas) while African American violence were recorded as being done by African Americans. Thus African Americans were shown to be violent, but the similar Violence of Southern Whites was diluted by the larger northern white and foreign white immigrants and they much lower rates of violence.

Most African Americans moved north After WWII, but they were of the age (Generally over 30) when they are settled and having a family takes them out of social groups that interact other then for work. On the other hand, they children, also a product of the South AND a product of the African American Community that was still dominated by people from the South, took with them into life of the inner city, this Southern, don't back down, fight for respect tradition. Thus you saw the increase in Murder Rates in Northern Inner Cities starting in the late 1950s, and accelerating in the 1960s.

Now, people absorb the dominated culture they are raised in. In the North it is a much less violent culture then the Rural South. Thus as African Americans became more and more removed from the Rural South, they replaced rural south traditions with Northern Traditions (i.e. Laugh off slight insults, work with each other, respect is internal, not what others think of you, but what you think of yourself). Along with these Northern Traditions is a tradition of NOT fighting over minor issues (and a tendency to view everything as minor). Starting in the 1980s you had mostly third generation of African Americans in Northern Cities (i.e. it was their Great Grand Parents who moved north, not their parents or grandparents). The Southern Tradition of fighting over Respect and one's "Manhood" became something of a distant memory, something to talk with relatives about long dead ancestors. This overall change in African American Culture lead to a less violence inner city and with a less violent inner city, less murder.

Children and Youth Spending

The other major influence was the increase funding for Children And Youth Services as part of Lyndon Johnson's Great Society program. In many abusive situations, the children learn to be abusive, as they see their fathers beat up their mothers and get away with it. These boys (it is mostly Males who are violent, the girls learn the lesson of being "helpless" and thus something to be beat on) will absorb the norms they see in their lives. Above I mentioned how African Americans absorb the norms of the Rural South, in abusive situations, these children absorb the norms in their own home and learn violence is the way to go. These same children slowly grow up and become violent in school and other social groups, and tend to be the people who are violent in their 20s and are the role models for their own children (and the cycle continues),

The increase spending on Children And Youth (and the related development of Protection from Abuse law) permitted Governmental units to intervene is such situations and correct the errors. The Children, seeing that they family were being "Punished" (Punished in the child's eyes as they see themselves removed from their parents and put with "strangers") internalize that such violence is NOT good and make efforts to break the cycle, i.e. Males try NOT to abuse their wives/girlfriends and women learn it is NOT right to be a punching bag (I do a lot of PFA work and you be surprised how often you find an abusive husband/boyfriend with a submissive wife/girlfriend, they find each other). This change often takes generations to work its way out of the family (i.e. each generation gets better at NOT getting into the abuse cycle). A side affect of this is, each generation also learn Violence is NOT the answer to problems within. This is again compatible with the murder rate increase in the 1960s (as the Children and Youth became more aggressive) but the effect would NOT kick in for 20 or more years (1990 is 20 years AFTER 1970, most of the Great Society Programs kicked in from 1966-1970, thus the decline after 1990 fits the drop in murder rates after 1990.

Now, the above two reasons are NOT incompatible (i.e. BOTH could be working together), but I mention them for they provide a better explanation for the drop in the Murder rate then the various Gun Control laws passed since WWI (and the claim that Legalized Abortion is the reason, i.e. less unwanted children, mean more children that are loved as children and thus such children grow up to be less violent).

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 03:11 PM

7. Not surprising, as you need at least $250K a year to survive in NYC -

 

no more poor people left!

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Response to downandoutnow (Reply #7)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 06:04 PM

27. So only poor people murder?

That's only the first of your ridiculous premises.

It may cost a fortune to live comfortably here, but five or six million out of eight million people manage to do so in households that earn $35,000 or less. Being poor here sucks, but on the whole about no more so than being poor in most other US locations. We have a pretty mean and abusive social welfare system, but unlike some places it actually exists and sort-of helps some people.

Really your comment deserves more ass-kicking than I'm going to give you. I've decided not to pass up the opportunity to correct your appalling and insulting misconceptions.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #27)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 08:09 PM

33. Sorry! -- I was joking about the whole "250K to survive" thing.

 

The most money I ever made was in the mid-50s a few years ago -- in New York City. Not in Manhattan, yes, but one of the nicest parts of an outer borough. Threw a lot of money down at a nice local bar on the weekends, and ended up saving money as well without even really trying. I wish I could get even close to that again, but I won't.

Sorry again!

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Response to downandoutnow (Reply #33)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 04:00 AM

39. I'm sorry too - it's all good.

I should know a joke when I see it!

This city can really drive you mad.

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Response to JackRiddler (Reply #27)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:16 AM

67. Only? No. Mostly? Yes. (nt)

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Fri Dec 28, 2012, 07:41 PM

31. Bloomberg is a good guy? Really?

I don't care what policies Bloomberg advocates, he's not my friend, he's not liberal or progressive, and I don't want to be associated with him. You might not want the push for new gun control associated with him either.

Edited to add: The attitude that the vile peasantry shouldn't own guns, but it's fine for the rich from a man that bought his way into office is about as nasty a sentiment as you can get a politician to admit to. And apparently a sentiment as you can get progressives to admire.

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Response to JoeyT (Reply #31)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:55 AM

102. Bloomberg is the singular biggest populist in the nation & the biggest enviornmentalist

 

If Hillary45 don't run for some reason, I would want him to rejoin the democratic party as he is the only person besides Hillary45 who can defeat Jeb Bush.

and he is a lifetime liberal from Mass.

and he will in 2014 finance any candidate who is for getting guns off the street.
Therefore one hopes its the democrats, but the killing of children is not a partisian issue

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:17 AM

68. Just about every city's murder rate every year has been a record low for several years

Got to love downward trends.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sat Dec 29, 2012, 11:12 PM

99. Too bad Chicago and strict gun laws are at a record murder pace.

 

Kind of F's up Bloomberg's argument.

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Response to jpak (Original post)

Sun Dec 30, 2012, 11:52 AM

101. Congratulations Mike Bloomberg. Rejoin the Democrat party, and if Hillary45 for some reason don't

 

run, you never know. Being that there is no other 2016 option that will lead to victory.

Sometimes an issue falls into someones hands like a message from above
The Gun issue is that perfect storm of an issue.

and before he was mayor, he was a lifelong democrat. So haters of Bloomberg get over it.

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Response to graham4anything (Reply #101)

Tue Jan 1, 2013, 02:54 PM

106. (ahem) DemocratIC Party :) nt

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