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Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:59 PM

Merry 'Cliffmas': Obama, Boehner Deal Dims

Source: ABC

The outlook for a deal to avert the "fiscal cliff" by Christmas is increasingly grim, though lawmakers and the White House still have hope for a deficit-reduction compromise by the end of the year.

Republicans will move forward tonight with a vote to pass House Speaker John Boehner's so-called "Plan B option" – an extension of current tax rates for Americans making up to $1 million a year while replacing some pending automatic cuts to defense and domestic programs with other measures.

The step seeks to show Republicans acting to avoid an income tax hike on 99 percent of Americans in 2013, and leverage new pressure on President Obama in the ongoing talks for a broader "cliff" deal.

...snip...

Obama has threatened to veto the legislation, calling it counterproductive and the cuts burdensome for the middle class. If the Senate were to consider the bill to stave off a looming tax hike, Democrats would surely amend it to enact more amicable terms.


Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/boehner-vote-plan-riles-fiscal-cliff-talks-obama/story?id=18026638

65 replies, 4986 views

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Reply Merry 'Cliffmas': Obama, Boehner Deal Dims (Original post)
brooklynite Dec 2012 OP
loyalkydem Dec 2012 #1
liberal N proud Dec 2012 #2
BlueStreak Dec 2012 #10
janx Dec 2012 #14
bluestateguy Dec 2012 #3
SoapBox Dec 2012 #4
Liberalynn Dec 2012 #11
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #20
John2 Dec 2012 #33
SoapBox Dec 2012 #34
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #44
SoapBox Dec 2012 #35
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #45
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #47
Plucketeer Dec 2012 #27
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #48
Plucketeer Dec 2012 #65
grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #5
brooklynite Dec 2012 #13
SoapBox Dec 2012 #17
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #22
SoapBox Dec 2012 #36
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #39
grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #43
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #50
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #52
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #54
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #56
grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #57
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #59
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #55
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #49
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #46
brooklynite Dec 2012 #38
grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #42
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #51
grahamhgreen Dec 2012 #41
mostlyconfused Dec 2012 #6
mac56 Dec 2012 #7
mostlyconfused Dec 2012 #8
mac56 Dec 2012 #9
mostlyconfused Dec 2012 #24
mac56 Dec 2012 #28
mostlyconfused Dec 2012 #29
John2 Dec 2012 #12
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #23
ReRe Dec 2012 #15
maddogesq Dec 2012 #16
Fontune35 Dec 2012 #18
heaven05 Dec 2012 #19
amandabeech Dec 2012 #21
forestpath Dec 2012 #26
heaven05 Dec 2012 #61
plethoro Dec 2012 #30
heaven05 Dec 2012 #62
plethoro Dec 2012 #63
heaven05 Dec 2012 #64
forestpath Dec 2012 #25
JoePhilly Dec 2012 #31
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #32
SoapBox Dec 2012 #37
Yo_Mama Dec 2012 #40
humbled_opinion Dec 2012 #53
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #58
amandabeech Dec 2012 #60

Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:02 PM

1. This is so fun to watch them fall apart.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:09 PM

2. So the Republicans are going to let taxes go up on the rich?

They are fucked!

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:15 PM

10. Not by much

I bet you will find that the "Plan B" bill only has the marginal rate going up by a little, and it might only be a temporary increase. I bet they don't show cap gains, dividends, or the alt min going up for the rich.

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Response to liberal N proud (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:27 PM

14. Yes.

In short, they are.

This will be interesting to watch.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:14 PM

3. Newtown is more important than this inside the Beltway crap.

nt

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:27 PM

4. Full steam ahead to the Cliff!

I'm single...I don't work too much, enough to get by and be comfortable enough (WAY down in the "5-Figures)...I'm not whoring up money by the ba-gillions and then socking it away.

So...let the Federal Tax Rates go up, on all that it will affect. Those "Job Creators" will see the biggest jump and that's fine with me.

The Military budget? START there Mr. President! Stop "hinting" about shit to set upon SS! Stop it!

We won...They did not...Mr. President, act like it. SPEND some Political CAPITAL!

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:15 PM

11. Amen to cutting Defense more rather than SS

and the President using the political capital he won in election to pressure Congress to do it.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:01 PM

20. Seriously I don't think you are paying attention.

I can't afford it. Family of four 50K combined annual, we are strapped now if my tax rate increases 5 percent with no way for me to write it off that is an effective $2500 per year hit than we lose the $800 per year we were getting frrom Obama payroll tax cut, we get hit with all the hidden healthcare tax increases i.e., Denny's, Papa John' and probably a thousand other retailers that just aren't being public about passing down the costs to consumers. My employer is already hinting at our works healthcare plan going to cost more out of both my pocket and his when the heatlcare law takes full effect.

So all totaled I am facing nearly $5000 per year total increase to the federal government my employer is not going to give me a $2.50 per hour pay raise to offset these costs so now I have to somehow shave $150 spending per week, not possible. I will be taking food out of my childrens mouth, won't be able to save for anything....

I hope you understand my point I am average person here and will be devatstated.... Please caveat all of your fiscal cliff drama with a push for tax cuts for the middle class so our rates do not change...

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:37 PM

33. I don't know where you live?

 

You really think I can't provide for a family of four off 50K? Denn'ys and Papa John's would lose customers like you because of the Republicans' intransigence. I am for them extending your tax cuts and the working poor, but what I'm not for is the Republicans holding people hostage to give millionaires a taxcut.

You also bring up your employer claiming your healthcare cost more because of the impending Healthcare law. Well, you have to fill me in because I didn't know your Healthcare would even change if you already have healthcare. I thought the new law would be for people who don't have Healthcare, so what does that have to do with your employer or you? You sure he\she isn't pulling one over on you?

There is also a Tax Bill right now in the House, Republicans are holding hostage, probably for your employer to keep his\her taxcuts, if he profited over the last ten years. And Papa John's made huge profits last season.

I don't know, what kinda voters would vote for these Republicans anyway? We are in this situation because of them, not President Obama. If those Republicans are in your District, I think people in those Districts need to be calling them. I'm specifically referring to red districts in the South or anywhere else. They need to know Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid did not create the Debt or Deficit. They need to know it was Bush's huge taxcut, two Wars, and bad regulations for Banks and Wall Street that Republicans voted for. I would rather go off the cliff than to submitt to their Blackmail! I hope Boehner and Cantor gets the message. If there is any Drama, they created it and the people put them in office!

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Response to John2 (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:10 PM

34. I'll ditto to John2...and this...

"...we lose the $800 per year we were getting frrom Obama payroll tax cut..."

Just asking...are you talking about the reduction in your contribution to Social Security?

If you are...let's clarify. Obama and Congress, reduced OUR contribution to Social Security. Did you also know that your EMPLOYER, must match that amount, dollar for dollar? Note, it does NOT show that on your paycheck stub and no one ever talks about that, even the employers...why I don't know BUT, I do feel that this is part of a backroom plan by employers...by making "changes" to SS and Medicare (which the employer must also match), they will attempt/try to reduce ANY contributions, including the ones that they make...money saved for them!

BUT, BUT, BUT...when OUR contribution was reduced, the amount that the employer puts in, is STILL at the original, larger rate.

I my opinion...the reduced rate that we put in, is a danger to Social Security.

I WANT that rate to return to it's original levels, so I'm not even concerned about losing the Obama Payroll Tax Cut.

Let it go back up for everyone.

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Response to John2 (Reply #33)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:44 PM

44. First off

A family of four on 50K with a mortgage, 2 car payments (car insurance), college fund savings, food for growing boys, medical and dental insurance, clothes/shoes which they grow out of every 3 months it seems normal utilities i.e., cable, internet and my budget is completely shot and I live in the southeast. Since the economic downturn I cannot get any overtime, my wife and I forego vacations, nights out, etc just to make ends meet....

I agree that we are in this mess because of Repugs negligence and refusal to increase taxes on the rich but I also know that there are millions of people like me that will suffer if the Democrats don't do something about it, I will not forgive lawmakers that I vote for just to punish republicans, give me a break we are talking real life here not some political game.

Why can't the Democrats just let the republicans pass whatever they want and then come back with some legislation that increases taxes on the rich i.e., extend current rates for EVERYONE than introduce legislation that increases taxes on the wealthy only and dare the GOP to filibuster it. I think at that point the people would rise up and revolt against all teapublicans.

But I am definately not onboard with letting my rates go up.

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #20)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:12 PM

35. And are you saying, combined 50K NET, as in the actual amount, after all deductions,

that is taxable?

That 5% increase in your Federal Tax Rate just doesn't sound correct. You most certainly would not be in those upper levels of larger tax increases.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:49 PM

45. Yes that is correct but taxes will go up on everyone not just the rich....

our net is 50K and it will cost me $2500 more if we go over the cliff in addition to losing the $800 Payroll tax holiday that makes it $3300... and that doesn't include the costs I am being told come with the new healthcare law and the fact that my employer who is a government contractor is considering mass layoffs if sequestration hits them particularly hard, I have even had teabaggers at my job who have told the site manager to target obama voters for layoffs, which I believe is illegal but won't be able to prove because its only heresay...

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #35)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:59 PM

47. My bracket got

a 4.5 percent tax cut under the current rates.... Cliff means my rates go up 4.5 percent not hard to figure that out next the payroll tax holidat is a hit and the new healthcare insurance premiums are going to be a hit.... too much to absorb....

I have never been told by the President that he would allow this to happen and he better well do everything in his power to cut the taxes of the middleclass immediately after this cliff B.S.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #4)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:41 PM

27. I'm with you.

If THIS (going over the cliff) is what it takes to whittle away at the ridiculous amounts we're POURING into the military, then we're willing to take that hit to deny the damned gluttonous contractors their cream.

I get LIVID every time I think about the 60% that comes right off the top to build stuff that will make us not ONE iota safer!

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Response to Plucketeer (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:01 PM

48. Must be nice but there are

Thousands of people that work for defense contractors, what about their jobs.... I am sure there is a better way to manage the DOD budget without cuts that would put thousands into the Unemployment lines and worse the welfare lines, I never understand why people don't think about cause and effect..

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #48)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:00 PM

65. I was amongst those military hardware employees for many, many years.

The sickening fact that military hardware manufacture is all this nation has left in the way of industry, is a sad statement in itself. Why not sell their output directly to the nations we're now using said same hardware to patrol and wreak havoc on??? Workers keep their jobs - American troops come home - foreign folks take care of their own matters.

World Cops! Meddling in others business. That's what spurred extremists to attack the twin towers. Now we're blowing away innocents on mere suspicion they LOOK like bad guys. What the HELL sorta seeds are we planting???? I'd rather we struggle with unemployment than have another horrific attack perpetrated on us.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:46 PM

5. My God! The bias of ABC! "Increasingly grim" indeed! The old deal is the best deal for Americans!

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:23 PM

13. Not what they're saying...

They're saying the chance for any deal is dimming, and while people here may be willing to go over the cliff, there will be financial repercussions affecting everyone.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #13)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:43 PM

17. Let's list all those Financial Repercussions...

Federal Tax rate goes up. (...so be it)

Increase in taxes on Dividends and Capital Gains. (...dividends? What are those? OH...that 59 CENTS that my SAVINGS account earned last quarter? Capital Gains? Ha! I ain't got none of those!)

More?

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #17)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:03 PM

22. Really here is the list...

Average family making 50K combined will see roughly $5,000 increase in outlays to the federal government this year....

How are we supposed to suck that up?

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:15 PM

36. $5000 of $50K...is a TEN percent increase.

I just don't think so.

And you mention, "combined"...The main item to go up to "Clinton" era rates, is the FEDERAL TAX RATE.

Nothing about SS...Nothing about Medicare...

Anything with insurance is a WHOLE different ballgame, in and of itself.

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:01 PM

39. He's correct

Among the Bush tax cuts were large marginal tax percent cut for the poorest workers, an increased child tax credit, increases in EITC for higher earners, etc. Plus next year the 2% payroll tax cut expires.

Here is an article explaining this:
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/Tax-VOX/2012/1220/Fiscal-cliff-could-impact-low-income-families-the-most

Among families whose taxes go up, the average increase will exceed $1,400 for families in the lowest quintile and $1,600 for families in the second quintile


To that you have to add the payroll tax increase.

For example, the child tax credit rose from $500 to $1000 per child, so a family of four with two children would see an increase of $1,000 just from that change in the law. The child care tax credit is hit too - some of the worst affected will be head of households who make a decent amount (but nothing that anyone would consider well-off).

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #39)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:19 PM

43. When you're running a deficit, you're not getting a tax cut,

your BORROWING money that you will have to pay back with interest!

And the 2% payroll "tax cut" is money you are taking away from our retirement!!!

Not only that, but, because the negotiations are secret, there is no guarantee that any of these will be included in the deal.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:04 PM

50. Are you actually arguing

that the current economic conditions warrant these tax increases that would hurt the most vulnerable?

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:08 PM

52. I agree that the 2% payroll tax cut should be rescinded

As you point out, it is a fraud.

But it is also true that increasing taxes on top of that on lower to middle-income families is going to be disastrous. It's a huge tax increase (by percent) for some of these people - much higher as a percentage than the higher taxes on the wealthy and well-off. The most the rich will pay extra will be 4.6%, and some of these families will be seeing a 20-40% tax increase. That doesn't make sense.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #52)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:12 PM

54. Sometimes it's helpful

to mention to the cliff lemmings that the rich can abosorb or pass on these increases where those of us in the middle and bottom can't pass them on and they will break our backs. Many don't seem to get that point.

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #54)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:43 PM

56. I can assure you that bankers get it

They're sitting there adding up the potential loan defaults.

The increase will amount to two month's mortgage or rent for many families, so it's game over. First you feed your kids, then you pay the mortgage. Unless you're a lunatic.

Jesus, do they expect these families to live in their cars? Rents are going up, food is going up....

This isn't a question of piano lessons, it's a question of survival.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #52)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:23 AM

57. The Bush tax cuts did not cut taxes for the lower class by

20-40%!

And if you think the Republicans would agree to a deal that would, I'm sorry, but it ain't gonna happen.

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #57)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 02:03 AM

59. No but they did cut them

by 5 percent and the cost of living now is much more than it was then. I cannot afford a 5 percent income loss not many of us can and on a macro scale it will devastate the economy,

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #43)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:40 PM

55. Your point is good

but I still don't think that we can fantasize that we can take this out of the hide of the lower and middle income households.

A regressive tax increase of this magnitude will widen the deficit rather than lowering it, because it will push us into a hard recession, raise unemployment, lower tax receipts and increase federal spending on welfare programs.

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #39)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:03 PM

49. Thank you for showing so plainly

what I was trying to explain....

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Response to SoapBox (Reply #36)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:55 PM

46. Did you forget

that we all got a $800 payroll tax holiday from Obama but that goes away too... and the costs that the Healthcare bill bring where your plans have to meed certain thresholds my employer already told us that ours is going to cost both them and me more in the end the effect is a 10 percent increase...

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:55 PM

38. Add to that the non-defense spending cuts...

...and the loss of unemployment insurance.

...and the loss of value in retirement accounts when the markets tank.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:16 PM

42. History suggests the market will tank if we do strike a deal.

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Response to brooklynite (Reply #38)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:07 PM

51. Some people happy

to be lemmings and jump off a cliff because they don't really know how many millions it is going to impact and hurt terribly, all they know is that somehow they hope it can be blamed on the repugs.... No that won't work, I blame the President squarley he understands who will be hurt and it is within his power and scope to stop this nonsense that's what I voted for..

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Response to humbled_opinion (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:14 PM

41. Source?


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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:52 PM

6. "deficit-reduction compromise". Who are they kidding?

Neither side is making any real effort to reduce the deficit.

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Response to mostlyconfused (Reply #6)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:00 PM

7. Neither side? Sure about that?

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Response to mac56 (Reply #7)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:08 PM

8. Positive.

A 4% increase in the top marginal tax rate would not raise enough additional tax to account for much more than a rounding error on a $1.1 trillion deficit. That's not a serious deficit reduction proposal.

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Response to mostlyconfused (Reply #8)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:14 PM

9. Ah, but wait, there's more!

From http://www.ThePeoplesView.com:

"The President, as his counteroffer, has asked for tax rates to go up for at least those making more than $400,000, in response to Speaker Boehner’s offer of letting the rates go up on incomes over $1 million. The proposal would also cap the value of itemized deductions to 28%, basically preventing the rich from taking a greater percent of their incomes in deductions than middle class families. This, along with the President’s proposal to raise capital gains and dividend rates, as well as increasing the estate tax, should bring us pretty close to $1.2 trillion."

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Response to mac56 (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:28 PM

24. Two points...first, you're talking about 10 years

So increased tax receipts of $1.2 trillion over 10 years, to a government that is racking up deficits of about that much every year. That addresses 10% of the deficit problem. Plans for the other 90%?

Second, I sure hope that 28% cap on itemized deductions is only for very high income earners, because that would absolutely crush middle class and lower income earners who on average deduct a far, far greater percentage of their adjusted gross income than do the wealthy.

Based on 2009 IRS tax data, the most recent year where details are available, the only income brackets in which the average return had a difference between gross income and taxable income that was greater than 28% was among people who earned less than $100,000 per year. The average rich person may deduct a lot more from their return in terms of dollars, but they deduct much less in percentage terms.

In 2009, tax returns where the adjusted gross income was $30K to $40K on average had a taxable income that was 44% lower than that. Returns with adjusted gross between $100K and 200K on average had taxable income that was 27% lower than that. The smallest gap between adjusted gross and taxable income is among the $1+M group, where taxable income was 13-14% lower than their adjusted gross.

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Response to mostlyconfused (Reply #24)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:45 PM

28. Your solution?

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Response to mac56 (Reply #28)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:56 PM

29. There isn't an easy one

To approach a balanced budget taxes need to go up on everyone, and spending needs to be reduced significantly, across the board. I say reduced because both sides are giving us a line of BS when they talk about cuts. Baseline budgeting includes mandated increases in federal spending every year. The politicians propose reducing the rate of that increase, and call it a cut when spending is actually still increasing. The more that spending can be reduced, the less the tax burden ends up having to be on lower income people. At current spending rates a top marginal rate of 100% on both wages and capital gains would not come close to closing the budget gap. The rich cannot be taxed enough to balance the budget.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:21 PM

12. Let the taxes go up!

 

I think people will still be living after they do.

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Response to John2 (Reply #12)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:04 PM

23. You going to feed my kids?

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:29 PM

15. Hot Damn!

Please let this be true!

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:35 PM

16. In pirate voice: "Off the cliff ya scurvy dogs."

"We can fix it later laddies."

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:47 PM

18. Spam deleted by OKNancy (MIR Team)

 

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:48 PM

19. chained CPI??????

Our President is playing with rethug clowns. He won't hurt retirees now or ever in any compromise to rethug hostage takers. Period. He knows what a majority of democratic party VOTERS reelected him for. Period. I just don't believe he will stab we the people who waited in line 9hours to vote for him to appease rethug hostage takers.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:02 PM

21. I want some of what you're drinking.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #21)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:40 PM

26. Must be some good stuff!

 

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #21)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:33 AM

61. and

he didn't! still drinking. Still here after collapse of Mayan calender at 0612 this morning.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #19)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:58 PM

30. He absolutely will!.............nft

 

dddddddd

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Response to plethoro (Reply #30)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:35 AM

62. and

he absolutely didn't. still drinking. feels so good to be right sometimes.

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Response to heaven05 (Reply #62)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:47 AM

63. Apparently your drinking has increased your prescience. nft

 

sssssssss

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Response to plethoro (Reply #63)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:13 AM

64. ????

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:39 PM

25. Obama is too determined to cut SS not to find a way to save the evil deal.

 

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Response to forestpath (Reply #25)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:06 PM

31. When we go off the cliff, will that mean Obama caved on caving?

Those predicting Obama was going to gut SS have been predicting that for much of the last 4 years. Still hasn't happened. After each time it doesn't happen, they go silent for a few months, then pop back up announcing that THIS TIME, its absolutely, positively, going to happen.

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Response to brooklynite (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 06:32 PM

32. Let the Republicans boil in their own stew.

They weren't worried about the deficit when George W. Bush was causing it.

They seemed to think that borrowing a lot of money to fund two wars and pay for tax cuts for the super-rich was a good idea back then.

The deficit will go away when the economy improves, and it won't improve if you impose austerity measures right now, just as the economy is starting to create jobs.

The Republicans are anti-American. They always were. They still are.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 07:16 PM

37. Super ditto.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #32)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 08:07 PM

40. Yes, but if we go over the cliff it is imposing an austerity measure

There's no doubt that we will collapse into a pretty sharp recession.

The average low to mid-income family just cannot find the money to pay those increases without imposing personal austerity (and in some cases, defaulting on loans), and so the economy will tank.

You have to pay attention to the details!

Please read what CBO had to say about it:
http://www.cbo.gov/publication/43694

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #40)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:10 PM

53. Again thank you

for trying to explain to cliff lemmings what the actual impact on millions of Americans will be a terrible, terrible 2013....

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Response to Yo_Mama (Reply #40)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:44 AM

58. And what do you think will happen if you instead impose the austerity on seniors?

They too will have to live in personal austerity, and they have even fewer options that working people.

We need to look at our trade policies.

So many people here object to imposing federal value added or sales taxes, but I favor them. They would not be as regressive as these austerity cuts, and they would improve employment and tax revenue by making the production of goods overseas less advantageous when compared to production here.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #58)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 05:26 AM

60. How about an offsetting tariff based on labor and environmental standards?

I dislike sales taxes intensely.

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