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Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:46 PM

 

School gunman Adam Lanza may have snapped over fears mother was going to send him to psychiatric...

Source: New York Post

...facility

Bloodthirsty child killer Adam Lanza might have snapped, and carried out his unspeakable atrocities after learning that his mom wanted him thrown in the psych ward, according to published reports today.

Mom Nancy Lanza was the first person Adam Lanza blew away on Friday before unleashing his killing spree at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., murdering 20 little kids and six educators.

“From what I've been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and plans to have him committed," Joshua Flashman told. 25, FoxNews.com.

"Adam was apparently very upset about this. He thought she just wanted to send him away. From what I understand, he was really, really angry. I think this could have been it, what set him off....”


Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/school_gunman_psychiatric_lanza_hmU0Sl1Skq3MqZTcmEdIMJ



Getting someone committed is difficult, and should be. But there are people who really need to be committed. If this story is correct, it's unfortunate that Nancy Lanza didn't start her efforts much earlier. ETA And do a better job of keeping her firearms secured.

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Reply School gunman Adam Lanza may have snapped over fears mother was going to send him to psychiatric... (Original post)
slackmaster Dec 2012 OP
Bacchus4.0 Dec 2012 #1
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #5
SoCalDemGrrl Dec 2012 #79
MichiganVote Dec 2012 #91
southerncrone Dec 2012 #2
LisaL Dec 2012 #39
southerncrone Dec 2012 #40
TorchTheWitch Dec 2012 #83
dipsydoodle Dec 2012 #3
Major Nikon Dec 2012 #4
dipsydoodle Dec 2012 #6
cyberswede Dec 2012 #25
The Stranger Dec 2012 #70
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #7
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #8
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #9
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #13
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #14
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #22
sir pball Dec 2012 #84
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #92
Shankapotomus Dec 2012 #17
treestar Dec 2012 #58
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #67
NickB79 Dec 2012 #47
SoCalDemGrrl Dec 2012 #80
oldbanjo Dec 2012 #11
ComplimentarySwine Dec 2012 #12
kestrel91316 Dec 2012 #15
undeterred Dec 2012 #20
AngryOldDem Dec 2012 #18
undeterred Dec 2012 #21
SoCalDemGrrl Dec 2012 #81
ronnie624 Dec 2012 #29
YOHABLO Dec 2012 #10
Chemisse Dec 2012 #16
AngryOldDem Dec 2012 #19
Squinch Dec 2012 #23
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #24
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #26
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #27
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #33
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #49
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #61
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #62
SoCalDemGrrl Dec 2012 #82
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #88
wordpix Dec 2012 #96
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #97
Scairp Dec 2012 #28
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #31
aroach Dec 2012 #30
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #32
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #36
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #38
HooptieWagon Dec 2012 #41
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #52
AngryOldDem Dec 2012 #44
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #50
janx Dec 2012 #68
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #71
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #34
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #35
Dems to Win Dec 2012 #37
wordpix Dec 2012 #98
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #101
xoom Dec 2012 #48
treestar Dec 2012 #60
Disgraceland Dec 2012 #55
Shilo Dec 2012 #42
Scairp Dec 2012 #43
AngryOldDem Dec 2012 #45
Myrina Dec 2012 #54
union_maid Dec 2012 #46
treestar Dec 2012 #59
latebloomer Dec 2012 #51
Myrina Dec 2012 #53
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #56
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #57
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #63
slackmaster Dec 2012 #64
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #66
janx Dec 2012 #69
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #72
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #65
slackmaster Dec 2012 #73
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #74
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #75
mother earth Dec 2012 #76
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #77
mother earth Dec 2012 #86
slackmaster Dec 2012 #78
mother earth Dec 2012 #85
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #87
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #89
Fire Walk With Me Dec 2012 #90
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #94
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #95
mother earth Dec 2012 #102
wordpix Dec 2012 #99
anobserver2 Dec 2012 #100
oberliner Dec 2012 #93

Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:53 PM

1. the similar stories I read said he thought his mom loved the kids more than him

If today's reporting is accurate, she volunteered at the school with kindegartners last year. Thus, they are 1st graders this year and the ones who were targeted.

This guy definitely needed to be committed.

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Response to Bacchus4.0 (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:16 PM

5. Nancy Lanza had no connection to this school and neither did her son.

That mismedia report has been discredited.

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Response to MichiganVote (Reply #5)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:58 AM

79. No you are incorrect- Adam attended the school for at least 3 years

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Response to SoCalDemGrrl (Reply #79)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:39 PM

91. I give up. Earlier report said no, but USA shows he was there part of 5th grade at least.

There have been so many reports that are at variance with one another and the media is not publishing retractions.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 05:59 PM

2. This is a believeable motive.

An event that's been full of erroneous & conflicting reports, this is actually the first story that makes some sense & seems like there was a driving force behind his outlandish actions.

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Response to southerncrone (Reply #2)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:37 AM

39. It might be believable, but I don't see any evidence that it's based on reality.

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Response to LisaL (Reply #39)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:56 AM

40. Have we seen or heard much of anything based on reality on this event?

Other than, too many innocent kids & caring adults are no longer w/us.

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Response to southerncrone (Reply #2)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:52 AM

83. i think people are trying to find some kind of "rational" explanation for this

People that do these horrific acts AREN'T rational therefore whatever their motive was if there was one at all isn't going to be anything normal thinking people consider rational either. I understand that everyone has a need to know why he did this - including me - that makes some kind of rational sense, but the fact that he did do it means he was NOT rational, therefore, there isn't going to be any rational explanation for why he did it. He did it because he was mentally disturbed, and we will never know the delusions that lived in his mind that resulted in his belief that it should be done. It can't be made sense of because of the very fact that it is a senseless act and committed by someone who obviously was mentally deluded into believing that it was a rational thing to do. And the very fact that it is an irrational thing to do committed by someone unable to determine the difference between the rational and irrational there isn't going to be any rational motive if there was even any motive at all.

We've been accustomed to discovering that when someone commits such an act there are always many people that knew the person that knew they were violently mentally disturbed. That isn't the case with this guy since whatever his mental problems were he kept them locked inside his own head hidden from everyone. He was uncommunicative to the point of occasional catatonic states in order to avoid dealings with other people. He was desperately shy, fearful, and unsociable with everyone including those people he knew well and trusted - like his own family members. No one but no one had the slightest clue he harbored these violent demons since al his life he went overboard in not allowing anyone into his head with his very long history of absolute shut down from others - ALL others. We'll never know what demons were in his head and how long they were there because right up until he committed this atrocious crime he had always been able to keep them locked inside his head with know one having any inkling they existed.


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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:02 PM

3. The amount of conjecture by the media on this subject is absurd.

.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #3)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:07 PM

4. It's a Murdoch owned rag that's specializes in tabloid style news

It isn't fit to line bird cages and shouldn't be passed off as a legitimate source of news.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:16 PM

6. Curiously

Although being UK I don't do Fox, other than to check out Martha's legs, I've noticed they are doing the opposite - killing any conjecture.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:03 PM

25. Ugh - the writing style is abominable. nt

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Response to cyberswede (Reply #25)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:43 PM

70. I noticed that too. Too colloquial.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:43 PM

7. I cannot fathom the cluelessness of working to commit someone on the one hand and letting them

have access to your dangerous toys on the other hand.

WHAT WAS SHE THINKING??????

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 06:45 PM

8. Why do you assume that she let him have access to her "dangerous toys?"

 

We know he accessed them. I don't believe that we know that she let him. Maybe he broke into a safe.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:16 PM

9. If he was able to break in, it was a crappy, cheap safe and she still bears responsibility.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #9)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:50 PM

13. You might be surprised

 

just how easy a lot of expensive safes are. I suggest that you look at youtube to see some demonstrations.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:55 PM

14. Gun safes that aren't basically bomb-proof need to be prohibited. If somebody can break in, they

don't deserve the name "safe".

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #14)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:55 PM

22. They certainly need to be marketed more clearly, in my opinion...

 

most gun "safes" aren't actually classified as safes by the UL. If you go and look at those fancy, expensive "safes" in the big box stores, you should notice that the certification label shows that they are rated UL RSC, or Residential Security Container. From what I can tell, this means that it's not actually a "safe." Those thick "composite" doors that they have? Relatively thin steel bent over a few layers of sheetrock.

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #22)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:04 AM

84. California DOJ approval

Is what one needs to look for, and what my safe is.

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Response to sir pball (Reply #84)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:02 PM

92. I think that you need to research that further n/t

 

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #13)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:34 PM

17. I doubt he had to break in

He was a kid who didn't work and lived with his mother. As probably a virtual recluse, he had nothing better to do all day than to figure out her hiding places for her keys and almost everything else in her life.

Have the police confirmed yet whether the safe was broken in to?

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:42 AM

58. Then why pay a lot of money for them?

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Response to treestar (Reply #58)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:43 PM

67. I imagine it's a couple of factors

 

Some people may not understand what they're getting. Also, safes with actual TL-15 or TL-30 ratings seem to be VERY expensive relative to the "safes" in the big box stores.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:33 AM

47. If he was as smart as people claimed he was

It wouldn't be a stretch for him to gain access to a basic gun safe, especially if he had plenty of free time to work at it.

Not everyone can afford the $2000, Fort Knox-style gun safes on the market.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #9)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 01:59 AM

80. Yes- I second that for sure

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:41 PM

11. The brother said that she took them shooting.

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Response to oldbanjo (Reply #11)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:49 PM

12. Sounds like a controlled environment

 

Do we have any evidence that she allowed him to access them without supervision?

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #12)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:56 PM

15. He got them and shot her in bed while she slept - I think that qualifies as "access without

supervision".

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Response to ComplimentarySwine (Reply #8)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:43 PM

20. I can't believe she would even have them in the house.

If she was thinking about having him committed, she must have been afraid of him. Didn't her mind ever go to the thought that he might kill her? Did he get into her gun case with an ax? However he did it he had all her weapons at his disposal and he had enough strength imagination and money to do it.

She knew he was an intelligent young man and deeply disturbed. She was in a terrible situation. I hope other people learn from what happened to her, I really do. It is such a tragedy for that family too.

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #7)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:38 PM

18. That's what I've been asking myself since I read this story.

Surely the kid's mental health just didn't go to hell overnight.

That's why, God help me, I'm having a lot of trouble feeling the same amount of sympathy for Nancy Lanza that I have for everyone else involved in this. This all started with her guns. If she knew her kid was that unstable, then the first things to have gone should have been THE DAMN GUNS.

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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #18)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:46 PM

21. Its one of those situations where extended family should have said something.

Or anyone who knew her and could see what was going on with the son. Sure, people get into arguments over these things, but sometimes when a person is in a situation they just don't see it clearly. I wish her friend at the bar had said You are in danger and you need to do something NOW. The guns are a danger to YOU. She would have saved a lot of lives, starting with her own.

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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #18)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:02 AM

81. Yes- agreed- mentally unstable son - DITCH THE GUNS!!!

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Response to kestrel91316 (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:39 AM

29. Being a 'prepper' and all, she wasn't too stable, herself, it seems. n/t

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 07:21 PM

10. Blood Thristy?? He was mentally ill for godsake ..

The story about this mother and her son's relationship are coming out of the woodwork now. We don't know the whole story. If Adam were sane ... twenty children would not be dead. All fingers should be pointing at the mother and how she was dealing with a mentally ill son, and her enthusiasm for guns and her ideology surrounding it. I don't think "Blood Thirsty" was appropriate.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:12 PM

16. That term stood out for me too.

To me, that would describe thrill killers, not someone who killed out of mental illness. It seems more like fear, anger or perhaps hatred were the driving forces, not thrills.

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Response to YOHABLO (Reply #10)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 08:39 PM

19. It's the New York Post. n/t

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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #19)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:28 PM

23. ^^^Yep. Crappy Murdoch rag.^^^

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 10:55 PM

24. Also on FOX / my theory

The NY Post link is now coming up like this: Page Not Found!
404 Error

We're sorry, the page you are looking for cannot be found or does not exist on NYPOST.COM.

Below is a list of today's stories but if you are looking for a story that is more than one day old, please use our search tool.

To report a technical problem, please fill out the form to the right.
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------------

However, this story is also being reported online from FOX:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fear-being-committed-may-have-caused-connecticut-madman-to-snap/
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fear-being-committed-may-have-caused-connecticut-madman-to-snap/print

I agree with the poster above who said this is a plausible motive -- he did not want to be committed.

I am going to guess the disagreement his mother had with the school board, as earlier reported, prior to her yanking him out of high school, went something like this:

School board's position is that his new diagnosis means he can no longer be in "honors" classes. He now has to be in classes with other kids who have been
diagnosed with autism.

Mother's position is he has been in "honors" and done well and shouldn't be pulled out now because of this new diagnosis, which he has never
before had in school.

Mother and school board battle until Mother pulls him out, vowing to "homeschool" him.

Mother discovers it's not so easy to homeschool her very bright son. Mother gives up. Adam now officially drops out of school.

Mother looks for a school that will take him. Can't find one for some reason. Thought she found one in Washington and was willing to move.

Adam finds court papers saying Mother wants legal authority over him as adult in order to commit him to a psychiatric facility, which is Mother's
plan "B" if a school doesn't work out.

Adam, like every other bright person ever committed to a facility that the person did not want to go to, is furious and afraid.

And, well, we know the ending of this story.

Something like that is what I think happened. Just a guess. No one really knows. But, I think the problem began when he received
this autism label late in his student life. It doesn't sound like this was ever an issue before he was placed in "honors" math or "honors"
English. But once he was diagnosed, I bet the school board policy was that he was no longer eligible for "honors" classes and had to be moved.

Something like that.

As I mentioned before, every parent of every autistic student I have ever known has battled with their local school board over something.

And, IMO, once Adam was yanked out of school by his mother, who may have thought she was doing the right thing for him, but, had no immediate
plan on where else he might be able to go to school - everything went downhill from there.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #24)

Tue Dec 18, 2012, 11:52 PM

26. We don't know the dispute between the mother and school,

but I'd tend to agree with you that the situation took a turn for the worse when the mother took him out of school and decided to deal with him herself. Did she also think she knew better than mental health professionals?

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #26)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:10 AM

27. Re my theory and your response - I think you missed the point about mother's battle with school boar

Thanks for your post. Agree with you - the turning point was her yanking out of school. More about her school board battle in this article:

Adam Lanza's Mom Pulled Him Out of School: Relative

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/adam-lanzas-mom-pulled-school-relative/story?id=17985433#.UNFIWYWU7dA

Someone on this forum asked a very good question -- where are the public records about her contact with that school board? What was the battle about?

But, based on what I know about the battles parents have with school boards, and, with the added element of an autistic student, I am guessing that
I am not far off in my theory above, especially with what I read somewhere in a news article: the mother, Nancy, did not like the "plans" the school board
had for her son.

Also, interestingly, IMO at least, tonight I overheard a doctor on a news show making the distinction about aspberger's syndrome, saying it is something that develops "later" if I heard him correctly. So, I sense my belief that it was in fact LATER in his school career that he was diagnosed, and then suddenly had this new label put upon him -- leading the school board to demand a change in his academic placement assignments (which is, again, my guess as to what
the school board and mother were battling about).

But as to your question - did she also think she "knew better than mental health professions?" Actually, the mother's position -- if it was indeed that
he should stay put, in "honors" classes -- is the position of many experts in mental health in terms of NOT moving someone around to new surroundings if
suffering from some mental disorder. The doctor on the news tonight kept saying this is not a mental disorder but a developmental disorder, but, still,
I am totally sympathetic with a mother who wants to keep her son in the same type of classes where he has at least experienced a lot of academic success, even though he was socially inept.

Why move him? Again, IMO, probably some policy in that school district required it and could not be changed; whatever.

I think the mother was trying to prevent her son from suffering harm in new classes that she feared would not be as challenging to him, and not have
""honors" students in those classes. She was trying to help him.

But, again - the school board policy may have been: no exceptions can be made. If he has this diagnosis, then, he's now out of "honors" classes.

I really would not be surprised at all if this is what was at the root of the battle that began this downward slide.

And, with respect to your question -- I don't know that mental health professionals are the ones who developed that school board policy;
usually mental health professionals want a kid in the least restrictive environment. But, again, that school board policy may have been that
once he has that diagnosis, he is no longer eligible to be in an "honors" class.

I am really curious to find out if this was the root of the mother's battle with the school board. And, I think there are many parents out there, of autistic
kids, who likewise have battled school boards, and hope that whatever the battle was about that Nancy the mother had, will become public knowledge, because: as I previously mentioned, I know many of those parents are always battling school boards. It seems there are some real issues parents have
with public schools when their kids are autistic. I hope this topic enters the national conversation, too. Right now it seems like some want to dismiss
it because there is no correlation to violence.

But when you are a kid who has gone through elementary, middle school and are in your sophomore year of high school, it is pretty late in the game to suddenly have a new label thrust upon you that impacts where are you allowed to be academically placed. It seems to me there is a lot of insensitivity to this by those who make school board policy, who, by the way, are not mental health professionals at all.

I just hope this battle she had with the school board is investigated by media and reported. There has to be some public records, emails or something about it. This might help a lot of other parents who go through this sort of thing, to bring this part of the story more into the picture. I think it may not be a correlation to violence, but, it precipitated a series of severe changes and events -- that may well have resulted in a lot of fear for this kid Adam, and, indeed ended in violence.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #27)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:50 AM

33. Well, I'm no expert.

I don't know about Asperger's, but isn't autism usually evident very early, like 2-3 yo? The son was described as as always having had social difficulties. And autism may have violent episodes which are apparently rare with Asperger's. The son had no police record, so there wasn't any incident of violence in his past that police had to be called for.
Now, there are forms of mental illness that develop in early adulthood...and if untreated can have cases of extreme violence.
So, while the mother was his mother, she wasn't a mental health professional. The school had a staff psychologist. Could the psychologist have seen early signs of mental illness (separate from the Asperger's) that the mother was in denial about? Then he got so bad she could no longer ignore it, and she (allegedly) was filing papers to have him committed?
So many questions, so little information so far.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #33)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:06 AM

49. I agree; a lot more info is needed on what was going on in the school situation with him

But again, that one doctor I heard on tv said asperger's is a developmental disorder that develops later (if I recall correctly).
There is a lot to look into with what was going on in school with this kid Adam, and what "plans" the school board had for him.

Any educator knows: if a student is having academic success, you don't move him. And he had a lot of academic success in his "honors" classes.

In addition, unlike the "failed joiner" label some expert gave him, he was a joiner in that he was in his school's tech club. It is very significant
that the success he had in class and in this club were both taken from him once his mother yanked him out of school, IMO. To really understand
how he may have been feeling, you have to look at what he had, and why the proposed changes were about to be made in the school, whatever those
changes proposed by the school board to his mother would have been. I really believe it is key to get to that in order to understand the
downward spiral which then happened for this kid.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #49)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:20 PM

61. I agree that removing him from school

reduced what social contact he had, and likely worsened his condition. Which is why mothers decision is an issue, and makes me wonder why she didn't consult outside experts and try to reach compromise with school...if thats the case.

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #61)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 PM

62. Yes, but read my post #56

I am wondering if those two options mentioned by expert researchers in this field were the only two options offered to the mother:
either move your son out of "honors" classes and into classes with other autistic kids (who are all lower functioning), or, move your son out of "honors" classes into classes with kids who are disruptive and conduct problems. Neither of those settings were appropriate for Adam Lanza, as his mother knew. But this can be the only choice, to provide required "services" once he is diagnosed as Aspergers. I am wondering if that's what the school board's plans were for this kid.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 02:12 AM

82. This is a very good analysis of the possible situation and with the diagnosis of autism

at an all time high, it's very appropriate to question the tactics of school boards nationwide in handling these kids.

Many times their IQs are exceptionally high and taking them out of honors classes and into classes for
"retarded kids" (yes I know it's not politically correct, but that's what these kids would call it) would be inappropriate and could cause anger and confusion for those exceptionally bright yet autistic students.

Its like a sighted person being put into a Braille only class.

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Response to SoCalDemGrrl (Reply #82)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 04:17 PM

88. Thanks and also see posts #63 and #66

Thanks and also see posts #63 and #66.

I really appreciate your comment because it seems some people on this thread are upset that it's not an anti-gun thread,
but in talking about what exactly happened with his separation from school, that, in itself, is one topic that is quite unknown at this time.
I wasn't trying to write about EVERY topic involved in this matter.

Others seem to pooh-pooh the idea that some people on forums try to bring in some information and see if any
of it makes sense and only want "news."

So, thank you for recognizing autism is itself an issue, and has been in the news just recently, with the rise in autism in
NJ students reported to be something like 4 times higher than what it was just a few years ago.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #27)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 11:14 PM

96. trust me, there are a lot of parents who want their kids in honors and AP classes who do not belong

there. How do you know the kid was doing well in this class?

I don't know of a school that would have a student leave an honors class he did well in, no matter how socially inept he is.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #96)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 10:05 AM

97. He was on honor roll according to news reports

In addition his classmates have all said he did well in his honors classes.
I saw interviews on tv with some of those students. It was not in dispute that he was doing well in school in terms
of academics.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:28 AM

28. It's a theory

It's as good as anything else, but we may never know why. It is sounding like the two of them were holed up in that big house together, just the two of them, that was much too small for them both after all. Clearly it's something mother did that set him off but since they are both dead the real answers are not going to be found.

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Response to Scairp (Reply #28)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:43 AM

31. I real answers are out there

I think real answers are out there, but, you're right in that we can never really know for sure.

But, my initial point that I meant to make in my last post was this one: Not only did this diagnosis come very late in this kid's school career,
but think of how humiliating it must have felt for him to discover that, here he is in "honors" classes, doing so well that several of his classmates
said publicly they thought he might be a "genius" and then -- to suddenly, without warning find out that you can't continue in your "honors"
program for reasons having absolutely nothing to do with your grades. How humiliating, to be abruptly labeled a what - a "failure" - for "OTHER" reasons.

All these experts say that mass shooters tend to be filled with rage, and it is easy for me to see how this lowering of academic status, this change in academic placement (again, if I am correct), must have negatively impacted this kid.

This is what school board members do not think about, IMO, when they create policy. Who serves on school boards in this country anyway? I don't know the backgrounds of those on the Newtown School Board, and I don't mean to pick on them, as they may not even be the ones who created a policy that
erupted in a battle with Adam's mother (again, assuming that's what happened), but -- again, these battles are commonplace with parents of autistic kids and p public school boards.

IMO, it was would a tremendous leap forward for our country if we started requiring actual professionals -- like mental health professionals -- to be part of every school board in this country. There are school boards in this country where people who literally know nothing about K-12 education are the ones creating and crafting school district policy. It is a shame.

And, I suspect, it is one reason why so many parents of autistic kids find themselves in battles with local public school boards.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:40 AM

30. I don't believe the school would do that

I don't think that being diagnosed with autism would disqualify a student for honors courses. My autistic son is mainstreamed in every way and will very likely be in honors courses once he gets to middle school. I think they only look at standardized test scores and attendance here.

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Response to aroach (Reply #30)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:45 AM

32. It's different everywhere

Every local school district makes its own policies. What may be school district policy in your district may not be policy in another district.

Again, I am guessing as to what the "battle" entailed. But, I believe there must be public records that would illuminate what caused Adam's mother to be upset with the "plans" that district had for her son, and upset her to the point where she yanked her kid out of that particular school district.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #32)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:01 AM

36. It could be that he was just non-violently disruptive.

All reports are that he was "troubled" from early in life, so I don't think he was diagnosed late. Possibly he was a disruption in honors class that the school couldn't manage in that class...or the school psychologist saw early signs of a more serious nature that the school was concerned about, and the mother was in denial. Who knows? It's entirely possible the school can't release records due to privacy laws, so we may never know.

If the story is true about motive is true, that he found out about mother's filing commitment papers and his resentment of her being kindergarten aide, then it's entirely possible her pulling him out of school and caring for him 24/7 created a dependancy problem...

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #36)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:21 AM

38. Well, no one ever said he was disruptive

There were several honor students interviewed early on, and none of them said he was ever disruptive. I don't know that he was ever disruptive, since no one ever said that about him.

The reports I read said he became very troubled after his parents divorced when he was 17. That divorce, he may have thought, and perhaps correctly, resulted from a recent diagnosis of his condition. Perhaps. I don't know for sure.

But no one has said he was diagnosed with anything early on. It seems to me this happened late in his school career. I hope that is clarified in upcoming news reports if anyone in media seeks public records about the mother's battle with the school board. And, I am sure some of those records would have to be public records (emails, etc). Especially since this is a criminal investigation.

As to the 24/7 problem of caring for him around the clock; I agree, this in itself was a problem. But I have to tell you: I personally know parents who do this for their autistic kids. It is indeed a round the clock type of care they give, forever, to these kids.

So, that alone, all by itself, does not explain everything to me. The change in his status at the school, resulting from a late diagnosis which was a stigma,
and what he may have felt was discrimination because of that stigma, tells me a lot more about where his rage began, notwithstanding the fact he was
always a loner, played video games, etc. This change that happened when his mother yanked him out of school; his parents divorcing; his brother not speaking with him; no interaction with kids his own age; all this are seeds of real rage, IMO.

All the other factors, and I realize everyone is looking for something to change -- and there are factors which should change -- still does not address the hurt, humiliation, and shame someone who is a genius and academic achiever would feel when that aspect of his life is pulled out from under him. It had to be hard on him to be pulled out of those honors classes, as he was certainly successful in those environments.

I still hope his mother's battles with the school board are looked into more; I think many parents of autistic kids are hoping the same.

And, again, what a leap forward it would be if a thoughtful analysis of what happened there ever resulted in a requirement that more professionals in mental health and education are REQUIRED to have a certain percentage of school board seats. Right now this country does not require anything of the sort. And I think the failure to have professionals in policy making positions really hurts kids such as Adam Lanza (as well as parents like his mother). Just my two cents.


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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #38)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:59 AM

41. I understand your points, and agree with most of them.

However, the school's responsibility extends beyond only Adam Lanza. They are tasked with the safety and education of several hundred other students, and to support their teachers to do the best job they can. If they thought it better for Adam to be in a different environment, there likely were many factors involved in that decision. Did mother even seek outside opinion?

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Response to HooptieWagon (Reply #41)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:12 AM

52. Maybe she did but it wouldn't matter to a school board in terms of their policies

You are asking a good question, but -- would it have mattered to a school board? Often, the answer, surprisingly, is no.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:31 AM

44. Speaking as a mother of two children who receive services....

Yes, you do have to be your child's best advocate when going up against schools. The biggest thing you have to fight against is the school pigeonholing your kid based on his or her disability. That hasn't been much of an issue lately because I think teachers and administrators are getting a better idea about the autism spectrum and other learning disability factors, but when my youngest was in kindergarten (he has since been diagnosed with Asberger's) it was like talking to a brick wall about his needs vs. what teachers wanted to do, which was, in many cases, the path of least resistance, which would have done him absolutely no good.

My son, now in 6th grade, is pretty much mainstreamed except for times when he gets overwhelmed, in which case he knows to just remove himself from the situation until he's feeling better. He's not violent; he just gets to stressing. His teachers are wonderful and have worked with him (and us) as a partnership, which is as it should be with kids like him.

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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #44)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:10 AM

50. Thank you for this post - I think you speak for many parents in what you are saying here

I think this is exactly what Nancy Lanza was going through in her battlle, too, what you said here:

"Yes, you do have to be your child's best advocate when going up against schools. The biggest thing you have to fight against is the school pigeonholing your kid based on his or her disability."


This is a very important part of this whole story and needs to be part of this national dialogue, too.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #24)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:35 PM

68. It is also on Huffpost:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/19/adam-lanza-motive_n_2329508.html

But the young man who reported it did so as hearsay.

It does sound plausible, but since we don't know the extent of Adam's disability(ies), it's hard to tell. It appears that he was very isolated.

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Response to janx (Reply #68)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:20 PM

71. FOX TV News reported it tonight, too

FOX claimed they are reporting it exclusively, but we have seen this in the NY Post and as you mentioned, on Huffington Post as well.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:50 AM

34. I have nothing but anger and contempt for Nancy Lanza. She didn't get rid of the GUNS!!

Not "she didn't do a better job of securing the guns", she didn't get rid of the guns.

It could come out that the guns were within three nested safes and I would still believe her to be criminally negligent and morally reprehensible and stupidly, insanely irresponsible.

I believe that it is well-nigh impossible for a parent to prevent a determined teenager (especially a brilliant technokid) from figuring out the codes to a safe or safes that the parent regularly accesses in the house. It is foolish for parents or politicians to pretend otherwise.

The teen could set up mirrors to watch the parent enter the numbers. Or a pinpoint camera -- child's play these days. The teen could guess the likely combo, birthdays and such.

The teen will know where the keys are kept. No parent can control keys 24/7.

Nancy Lanza knew she had a troubled, brilliant young man in her home. She kept those lethal, indescribably dangerous toys in her home anyway.

Because it was her hobby. She enjoyed playing with guns. Woo-hoo! Fun times! Bang Bang!

Nancy Lanza's selfish refusal to part with her lethal playthings directly led to the massacre at Sandy Hook. It was her guns that shot the bullets that splattered the human brains on the walls.

I shouldn't have to be terrified that the irresponsible gun loving parent down the street's stupidity will result in the slaughter of my child.

Freedom doesn't mean cowering in fear of my gun loving neighbors and their teen boys.

We need real, serious gun control now. FOR REAL.

The necessary first step is to repeal the second amendment. We don't need, and can't live with, the constitutional right to own a weapon of mass death. No more.

Repeal the Second Amendment Now.



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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 12:59 AM

35. But about her background?

People have said she was a "country girl" from New Hampshire who "grew up" with guns and
was comfortable with guns.

It's hard to erase something ingrained like that in a person's background, though I understand what you are saying.

I think what I find so troubling is that with all that alimony money she was getting -- almost $300K per year --
she didn't have more of a plan on how her son Adam could be educated outside of public schools.

With money not an object for her, I think she should have spent less time at gun ranges and more time
trying to find a private school for him.

But, then again -- how many options in terms of private school are really out there for someone like her kid? I really don't know.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #35)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:21 AM

37. It's really crazy and counter-human to be 'comfortable' with guns.

Guns are lethal killing machines. No one should ever be comfortable around them, not even for an instant. People, if they insist on playing with them, should always be 100% alert and on guard and fearful of the slightest mishap. That's what a rational human being is like when around anything that can instantly kill you or your child!

We need a complete overhaul of the culture. No one should be so comfortable with guns that they can't see the massacre-waiting-to-happen they are holding in their hands.

Freedom is not cowering in fear of our gun loving neighbors and their teen sons.

Repeal the Second Amendment Now

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #35)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:49 PM

98. there are lots of private schools that could have taken Lanza

They specialize in bright students with Asberger's, learning disabilities and all kinds of learning problems. Their teachers are well trained. They are very expensive but it wouldn't have been a problem with the $ the mom was getting.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #98)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:08 PM

101. I wondered about that, too

I am wondering if the classification change on Asperger's, made by the American Psychiatric Council, in 2010, from "mental disorder" to a type of autism,
resulted in all these private schools coming into existence after that time -- or, if there were such private schools back in 2007 when Nancy Lanza was looking
for such a school. I don't know. She said to someone she thought she found a school in Washington state and was willing to move there for her son.
But with all the money she had, I, too, have wondered why private school placement did not materialize after her battle with the school district.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:56 AM

48. Guns are not toys. FYI

 

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Response to xoom (Reply #48)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:46 AM

60. They have that role for some possessors of guns

Even hunters - it's now a sport for most people.

Only rural people and people who actually hunt for food use them in a utility-capacity.

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Response to Dems to Win (Reply #34)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:39 AM

55. Well said

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:23 AM

42. I can't believe you guys are attacking the mother---she is a victim in this too.

Why are we attacking a woman for having guns? Would the same statements be made if this creature had shot and killed his father who had guns? She had as much right to protection as a female as the next person. We don't know the whole story and probably never will. Maybe she was secretly afraid of her own son. Wouldn't you be?

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Response to Shilo (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 05:15 AM

43. I would blame the father too

But it sounds as if he was out of the picture, not of his choice. That boy was an adult and could make his own choices. There is no way to know the true dynamic between mother and son because they are both dead and we have no idea how they related to one another inside the house alone. The primal fact that he made his mother his first victim is extraordinarily telling however, and I do believe her actions, whether they were obviously negligent or maybe even reckless in some people's minds, were a factor. Kids don't kill their parents unless they are very seriously fucked up, by the parent or by something outside the parents' control. The fact is she brought powerful guns into her house, giving him access. I wouldn't do that even if they were kids like mine, big mouths but not at all violent. People get killed by their own guns all the time and that is a good enough reason in my mind to keep them out of the house. If you feel you need the protection of a firearm, I think a single handgun would have been sufficient. It's very odd that she brought so many high powered weapons into the house. I wish someone who knew her really well would speak. That aunt they spoke to seemed to know some things about her, her paranoia about the "economic collapse", whatever. I hope her other son decides to give an interview. His viewpoint has got to be key to perhaps understanding why his brother decided to kill her and then go kill children.

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Response to Shilo (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:39 AM

45. Since when do you need a Sig Sauer, Glock, and a Bushmaster for protection?

The prudent thing to have done when she realized her son (or "this creature," as you call him) was extremely mentally ill was get rid of the guns. That's the least she could have done.

And the reason why some of us feel this way is that this whole tragedy started with HER GUNS, which DO NOT need to be in general circulation. That is our problem with Nancy Lanza.



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Response to AngryOldDem (Reply #45)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:33 AM

54. Thank you.

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Response to Shilo (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:07 AM

46. She took him target shooting

Of course I'd blame the father. Yes, the mother was the first victim, but it doesn't change the fact that she had the guns, she kindled his interest in guns and taught him all he needed to know about guns. I think she got off lucky being shot first, because she'd have to live with that guilt for the rest of her life otherwise. If I were her, I'd far rather be dead.

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Response to Shilo (Reply #42)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 10:43 AM

59. Because she knew he needed to be committed and still didn't secure guns away from him?

He killed a bunch of innocent children, so in this case, it really did have consequences.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:10 AM

51. I don't know why, but I am obsessed

with the details of this kid and his family and what insanity may have gone on within the seething cauldron of that isolated home.

Probably it's a way to avoid thinking about the horror of what happened to those children and adults.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:31 AM

53. "Bloodthirsty Child Killer" C'mon ...

He wasn't a vampire for Chrissakes, he was messed up.

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Response to Myrina (Reply #53)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:52 AM

56. Re "messsed up" -- From research on students with asperbergers and public education needs

If you read the "conclusion" section at page 363 online in this book, you really get a sense of what this battle his mother had with the school board may have
been about -- and it goes to exactly my thoughts on this subject with respect to public education:

Asperger Syndrome by PhD Ami Klin PhD, MD Fred R. Volkmar MD and Sara S. Sparrow PhD (Feb 18, 2000)


Conclusion


"...individuals with AS have in the past been offered a choice between insufficient services for children with autism who are at a much lower level of general functioning, or, still, services for children with conduct problems, whose needs are totally different and incompatible with AS. These gaps in awareness and in services are slowly being corrected, although there is still much to be done in terms of producing a more research-based body of knowledge on effective interventions and in terms of considerably augmenting the resources available, including training of professionals, restructuring of current educational curricula and better preparation of students for the demands of independent living.

...This chapter advances the principle that our educational and treatment goals should focus on the longer-term goals of promoting increased social opportunities, of better capitalizing on the individuals' natural talents and on vocational satisfaction and independent-living skills, as well as on their general emotional well-being."





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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #56)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 09:59 AM

57. In addition to changes re guns, I think more change is also needed at the public education level

While there is no "profile" adequate to ever explain the motives of all these mass killers,
what is so heartbreaking to me is also when the mass shooter makes the incomprehensible leap to become
a mass shooter.

This kid Adam had talent, interests, and abilities with respect to the tech world and computers,
and yet, all of that seems to have led nowhere in terms of his education and future. This is a tragedy, too, although a quieter and less visible one --
and happens to hundreds of thousands of K-12 students who do not get what they need from their public education experience
for whatever reason.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:04 PM

63. NPR: Removal Of Asperger's To Change Special Ed Access

This is a very interesting Feb 2010 article - a date after Adam was yanked out of school by his mother.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123577220

Removal Of Asperger's To Change Special Ed Access

by Larry Abramson
February 11, 201012:00 AM

The American Psychiatric Association announced Wednesday that it is proposing to eliminate the diagnosis of Asperger's syndrome from the official diagnostic guide of mental disorders. The revised manual would place kids who are currently said to have Asperger's within an expanded definition of autism.

That change might affect how families get special education services in public schools. Currently, parents of children with autism turn to the federal law that guarantees a free public education for students with disabilities. Kids with autism clearly qualify, but for kids with Asperger's, it's much less clear. They are often highly intelligent but have social problems that make it hard for them to thrive in school...


More here:

...But special education is seldom that simple.

Many attorneys say getting kids recognized as eligible for services is not their biggest challenge. It's getting the services that families want, whether that's tutoring or placement in a special school. Steven Greenburg, a special education attorney in Northern California, says with or without the Asperger's category, schools draw a line in the sand.

"Schools often balk at private placement, at having to pay for a placement outside of public school," he says.

That's because private placements can cost districts tens of thousands of dollars a year per student.

Greenburg says the issue boils down to whether parents in an individual case are happy with what schools offer.

"What do you with that diagnosis?," he asks. "Does the child stay in the public school? Should they be disciplined as other students who do not have the disorder?"

It's another important question because disabled students have protections against being expelled when they act out...


So, back when Adam Lanza was yanked out of school by his mother, in or about 2007, his Aspergers Syndrome was deemed a "mental disorder" -- and not part of the autism spectrum requiring special ed services -- with 2010 being the date, years later, that Aspergers was now included as on autism spectrum requiring special ed.



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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:08 PM

64. Thank you for pointing that out. DSM-V was finalized very recently.

 

Among the conditions merged with others are Asperger Syndrom and Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #64)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 03:10 PM

66. you're welcome - and maybe it was expulsion he faced at that time, 2007

You're welcome.

And, I am now wondering>since the 2010 change in classifying Aspergers as meaning those kids are eligible for special ed classification had not yet happened in 2007 (when it was classified as a "mental disorder"), is it possible the school board was planning to expel Adam, based merely on the diagnosis of Aspergers?

And that the mother then yanked him out to avoid expulsion?

And were "honors classes" at the high school level, the ones he was in, actually considered special ed in high school (like gifted classes in elementary are actually special ed)? because if so, then the school board may have said: he is not special ed, so he can't be in those classes (since Aspergers was not yet classified with autism at that time, in 2007).

If by chance that is what happened, I am also wondering: Did the school district ever attempt to notify Nancy Lanza in 2010 that the classification for Aspergers had now changed, and her son could return to school - but this time with the special ed classification?

I know that kids with autism, in some districts at least, and perhaps under federal law, can remain in public k-12 school until the age of: 22.

So, if the school district did contact Nancy Lanza, in 2010, Adam would have been 18, and
perhaps could have come back to school under the new classification - and return to honors classes, if those were classified as special ed.

But I suspect no one reached out to Nancy Lanza, and perhaps she did not even know the classification had changed.

Lots and lots of questions here. I am also seeing a lot of information online to help parents of students with aspergers, and I am wondering if she turned to the internet to research for help. And if she did, in 2007, if she then gave up, prior to the classification changing in 2010.

Because the worst option for this kid Adam seems to have been exactly where he now was:
completely isolated alone in that house with his mother, not receiving an education other than about guns, and not having any social contact in a school setting.

Lots of questions about what happened here in terms of his schooling, which I still think aree very important to discuss and understand because so many other students are typically impacted as well in these type of matters.


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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #63)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 04:43 PM

69. I always thought that Asperger's was highly functioning autism.

?

Argh, all of these terms...For instance, people are claiming that Asperger's is not a mental illness but a developmental disorder, but they don't describe the difference.

What is the difference? Could it be that the term developmental refers to a worsening of the problem?

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Response to janx (Reply #69)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:24 PM

72. The difference is that it is a neurological problem, not a mental disorder as previously thought

I am not an expert but that is what I heard an expert say: The difference is that it is a neurological problem, not a mental disorder as previously thought.

This change in classification is really significant, I think, because it changed how the public schools have to classify these kids, as now being more eligible
for special ed under federal special ed laws. Before, when it was classified as a mental disorder (as opposed to being on the spectrum of autism), it was not so easy to figure out where to place these kids.

I am still wondering if the school board in Newtown wanted to expel him because of this diagnosis, and if this diagnosis - as a mental disorder, back in 2007 -
led to the divorce, and the isolation from his brother. It seemed to be among the first things the brother pointed out to law enforcement, that Adam had been diagnosed with Asperger's. But's it is not clear if anyone in the family realized the classification was later changed from a mental disorder to a neurological disorder.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 01:11 PM

65. So putting him in a psychiatric ward was the "right" thing to do AT THAT TIME in 2007

Based on my previous post above (the NPR article), it seems like a psychiatric ward was a logical next step at that time in 2007.

And, I think it is key to remember what the American Autism Society is saying: kids with autism are not known to be violent; but they can act aggressively iin response to a situation.(From below:" Individuals with autism who act aggressively typically do so because they are reacting to a situation.")

I really believe that may be what happened here: he was actually acting aggressively in response to the threat of being placed in a locked-down psychiatric
ward because at that time, in 2007, he was deemed to have a "mental disorder."


http://www.autism-society.org/news/press-releases/autism-society-statement-on.html

Autism Society: No Link Between Autism and Planned Violence

December 18, 2012
By Autism Society


The Autism Society continues to mourn the lives lost on Friday in Newtown, Connecticut. We join the nation as we keep our collective attention focused on those directly impacted by this tragedy.

In the nation’s rush to understand the reasoning for such an awful occurrence, the conversation evolved to include the alleged shooter’s possible diagnosis on the autism spectrum. The Autism Society feels it is imperative to remove autism from this tragic story. Race, ethnicity, gender, and sexual orientation are seldom, if ever, linked to the actions of an individual in a causal relationship. It is imperative that developmental disorders and disabilities be treated in the same vein.

Further, the Autism Society is committed to informing, educating and securing appropriate services by providing reliable and unbiased information. To that end, we are compelled to dispel any myths about individuals with autism:

No evidence exists to link autism and premeditated violence. Suggesting otherwise is wrong and harmful to the more than 1.5 million individuals living with autism in the United States.1

Individuals with autism and those with other disabilities are more likely to be victims of violence than the perpetrators.2

Many of individuals with Asperger’s syndrome who have committed crimes had co-existing psychiatric disorders.3

Individuals with autism who act aggressively typically do so because they are reacting to a situation.

Please do not judge any individual with autism based on the discourse surrounding Friday’s tragic event. Instead, please strive to educate and inform your communities. Help the Autism Society ensure that individuals with autism are not marginalized due to a misunderstanding of a complicated disorder.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #65)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 06:26 PM

73. Clearly having a condtion on the autism spectrum was NOT Adam Lanza's only problem

 

I think it's a mistake to focus on that aspect and ignore whatever else was going on with him.

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #73)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 07:47 PM

74. Well, obviously that's true - other problems existed, too

But understanding exactly what caused his mother to yank him out of school has not been explained,
and is indeed probably part of this whole matter as well, since that led to a very different
environment for him -- one without peers, without academic success, and without any social interaction.
So, it matters. And, true, it can't be explained in one post. One would have to look at what caused his
mother to pull him out of school. I do think that part matters as well.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #74)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:02 PM

75. Also - so many parents have these issues to deal with

It would be a shame to ignore this aspect of the matter, that here was a kid who
separated from school for some reason and ended up playing a lot of violent video games.
Not being able to get asperger kids off computers is what this blog's topic is full of, with
60 comments from parents:

My son with Aspergers doesn’t want to go school and just wants to play computer games
Filed under:Aspergers Education — posted by admin on April 7, 2009 @ 11:24 am

http://parentingaspergers.com/blog/education/my-son-doesnt-want-to-go-school-and-just-wants-to-play-computer-games/

And, again, obviously there were other problems that can not and should not be ignored.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 08:15 PM

76. How accepting & condoning we have become over rumor in lieu of factual and confirmed "news".

Somebody wake me when they have the facts.

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Response to mother earth (Reply #76)

Wed Dec 19, 2012, 11:00 PM

77. I think law enforcement is still searching for a motive

A motive is not so easy to find when the gunman is dead, too. That has been "confirmed."

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #77)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:06 PM

86. Oh please, law enforcement is capable of much more, it's the journalism that sucks. Gossip, plain &

simple...it's a poor excuse, but every little crumb is sensationalized & we eat it up with a spoon.

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Response to mother earth (Reply #76)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 12:47 AM

78. Sometimes rumors turn out to be true.

 

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Response to slackmaster (Reply #78)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:03 PM

85. Yeah, except RUMORS should not be presented as an objective piece of journalism, aka the "news".

Our standards have really declined if this is now acceptable.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 03:21 PM

87. "But there are people who really need to be committed"

 

Whoa whoa whoa. Everyone's suddenly a doctor with enough personal experience of this kid that they know what to do for or about him. We still know Nothing. Whatever happened to waiting for all the facts before making a decision? That's a part of Democracy :/

And does no one at DU even begin to understand the feelings and betrayal he must have felt if he'd heard this from his mother? I do not condone what he did in any way, but imagine if you heard similar from a parent. If there weren't dozens of guns laying around things may have been different.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #87)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:15 PM

89. I think you make good points

I think those are the questions that I have asked myself in thinking about this tragedy:

"Imagine if...(if you were faced with whatever)"

and

"What would have made things different for this kid Adam?"

So I think those are good points you are making.

I also can't help but wonder: Would he have committed this shooting (if there had been different security at the school, no guns in the house, no opportunity to learn from his mother how to use guns, no divorce, and...) if there had been no separation from school?

Because I think this is where any rage might have come from -- this change in status he suffered for reasons that are right now unclear.

At the beginning of 10th grade, he was a member of a student body, in high school, with his peers, in honors math and honors English, polite to the bus driver, making good grades, considered a "genius" by his classmates, and a member of a tech club, as well as a member
of a family unit consisting of contact with the other men in his family, a father and brother.

A year or so later, all that had changed dramatically: now, he was forcibly ousted from school due to whatever "plans" the school board had in mind for him verses his mother's belief that what they wanted was no right for him; and, now, ousted, his status in every way had changed from above.

This had to be impossible for him to reconcile: how many other high school drop-outs do you know who come from honors classes and are not behavior problems and are academically successful?

I keep remembering that the Columbine and Virgina Tech shooters were still physically in their school communities and became shooters (and so, were psychologically isolated more than physically isolated), but, here, like in Aurora, there was now a physical isolation from the
academic community.

I somehow feel that had this particular kid Adam remained at school, and remained a member of that school community, where he was, in those honors classes, in his tech club, that this shooting might not have happened as the change in status would not have occurred, along with the rage, the isolation in his basement, learning about guns and access to guns, etc.


Maybe I am totally wrong in thinking that. But when a kid who is academically successful is no longer in school, and then becomes an outcast even in his own family (with no contact with his father and brother), imagine how that kid must have felt, when all these changes, if they happened as a result of a diagnosis, happened through no fault of his own -- and how you would feel. I think the physical isolation in this case is really relevant. And that began with his separation from school, which I hope is investigated more for the sake of all other kids and parents like him and his mother at that point.



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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #89)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 05:34 PM

90. Thank you. This is the conversation we all need to begin to have.

 

What are the =situational= issues which contributed to the tragedy, versus "he's just nuts". Can anyone imagine the feelings of rejection he may have experienced? From peers up to and including parents, and the utter failure of society to recognize and help him in this situation? If this is what occurred to him, it must have been horrible. Failed by every level of our culture. Bad parenting and gun culture/easily available weaponry certainly contributed or even enabled him, if that is what occurred.

That he may have been enduring an extremely emotionally destructive experience must be factored into things, or at least examined. If you want to solve problems such as these, begin through attempting to understand and thus heal them/head them off through positive situational adjustment. I look forward to learning more about this horrible tragedy in the interest of helping to improve things for the troubled that this might not need to again occur.

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #90)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:37 PM

94. I totally agree with you -- but others do not

I totally agree with what you are saying here. But it is amazing to me that others think
the one action -- and only action -- we need to do from this tragedy is to change the gun laws - yes to changing those laws, IMO. Of course.

But there is a lot more to learn, too.

However, we can only learn more if we are brave enough and patience enough
to look and ask the questions that need to be asked. (Including: What "plans" did this school board have for this honors
student that his mother did not like?)

Yet, you can tell on this thread as well that some people think changing the gun laws, alone, will solve every problem.
I believe it is necessary to change gun laws, and, it will indeed help our nation to change gun laws.

But there is more to do is my point.

Unfortunately, look at how this columnist sees it:

Details are a distraction in Newtown killings

By Juliette Kayyem
| Globe Columnist

December 20, 2012


http://bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/12/20/details-are-distraction-newtown-killings/0DEmIPXe7wZpXGt01KKwjI/story.html

...What we do know now is basic and undeniable. We know that rampage murderers use high-volume, rapid-firing guns.

We can pretend, as we surely do now, that the particular details of this tragedy should make a major difference in formulating the policy choices ahead. They do not. Whatever facts unfold, whatever gems of explanation are unearthed, some narrative will have already been settled based on the attention span of the American public. This is what happened with Columbine.

As the Columbine mythology suggests, the focus on the details of a particular case is not the right way to think about our obligation to those children who died. A nation cannot design a policy around what it thinks it knows about one incident. There are too many incidents to speak of and too many consequences for the choices that need to get made, particularly on gun control. One “eureka” moment, bound to be erroneous, doesn’t matter.

Indeed, the search for facts makes us stupid. By focusing on these details, we perpetuate the notion by those who would want to maintain the current gun laws that we could be safe if only we knew more about the individuals who threaten us. Maybe by rejecting knowledge, we can finally reclaim our common sense: There is a difference between safer and safe. The former is an achievable policy and points to concrete steps we can take; the other is a futile, childish hope. The world will always have “evil” and “sociopaths.” But, we are smart enough to know we can’t be completely safe; we just need to be safer.

Harris and Klebold are nothing. Lanza is irrelevant. Even though we don’t know everything, even though what we think we know will likely be proven wrong in the years to come, we can be guided by the one fact that is irrefutable: On average, over the course of a single day, eight children die from gun violence.

We know enough.


-------
See, this columnist knows "enough." She doesn't want to know anything else.

I think she is wrong. Yes to changing gun laws.

AND - yes to finding out more about what happened here, because while we mourn the loss of all those lives, it seems to me something inside this kid who was the shooter also died and then became enraged.

It's not merely that he was a "weirdo" as Bill O'Reilly has said, or that this kid "didn't take his medications" as I have heard others say.

Something, a series of events, happened. Then this terrible tragedy happened.

But, in addition to changing gun laws -- which I support, but, I note, did not stop that guy in Norway from killing 70+ people last summer --
you have to look more at other issues, too.

Otherwise, you just have these situations that erupt over and over with other weapons. And, I also believe sometimes the situation can't be changed,
as in the case of a Manson type murderer.

But with this kid Adam, I just feel his life was going fine, but that all he did to play by the rules - showing up at school, working hard to get good grades -- all of this turned out not to matter a hill of beans in the face of what - a diagnosis of a mental disorder that was later changed to another classification only three years later? Whatever happened is worth finding out more.

And again, yes to changing gun laws. But the other details matter, too.

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #94)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 10:45 PM

95. P.s. From NYTimes: "Police Dept. to Use Internet to Try to Stop Mass Shootings"

It seems to me law enforcement is very interested in understanding more about the "details" --

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/21/nyregion/police-dept-to-use-internet-to-try-to-stop-shootings.html?ref=nyregion&_r=0


Police Dept. to Use Internet to Try to Stop Mass Shootings


By MICHAEL WILSON
Published: December 20, 2012

Top intelligence officials in the New York Police Department met on Thursday to examine ways to search the Internet to identify potential “deranged” gunmen before they strike, Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said.

“The techniques would include cyber-searches of language that mass-casualty shooters have used in e-mails and Internet postings,” Mr. Kelly said in a statement. “The goal would be to identify the shooter in cyberspace, engage him there and intervene, possibly using an undercover to get close, and take him into custody or otherwise disrupt his plans.”

The meeting came almost a week after a gunman killed 26 people, 20 of them children, inside Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn.

There are plans to send officers to Newtown and to scenes of other mass shootings to collect information, Paul. J. Browne, the department’s chief spokesman, said. ...

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Response to anobserver2 (Reply #95)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:09 PM

102. Sorry, but this is such BS, when they pay zero attention to online purchases of gobs of ammo &

bullet proof vests. Oh, yeah, this'll do it alright. They can't even handle pedophiles & porn, but somehow this is a good tactic?
Just yet another reason to watch & listen in to innocent people...who polices this I wonder?

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Response to Fire Walk With Me (Reply #87)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 12:56 PM

99. where are people committed TO these days? All the "insane asylums" in my state are gone

Yes there were many abuses and some facilities should have been shut down but how about reforming others? Now there is nowhere for the mentally ill to go if their parents/family cannot handle them and their issues/problems.

My friend with a mentally ill, very academically smart son (age late 20's) took him to the hospital's mental ward and they said he was sane and there was nothing they could do. So he is at home with his parents, still threatening them, punching holes in the walls, and doing very weird stuff. My friend says if they ask him to leave he'll be homeless b/c he cannot function in society.

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Response to wordpix (Reply #99)

Fri Dec 21, 2012, 03:05 PM

100. very sad situation -- and good question

With respect to this one aspect of this whole matter, I think that is a good question -- where do these people go?
It is also a question that I have seen asked on the other end of age spectrum, with the elderly, when they become demented
and can no longer function in society. Right now there is not much to choose from - staying with a family member,
or a lock-down facility, which is a very frightening place to a high functioning elderly person with mild dementia. I have seen some
group homes, but not many.

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Response to slackmaster (Original post)

Thu Dec 20, 2012, 09:09 PM

93. New York Post is a RW rag

And Fox News cited to boot.

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