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Tue Dec 4, 2012, 10:41 PM

Protesters attack palace, party headquarters in Egypt

Source: CNN

Cairo (CNN) -- Protesters marching on Egypt's presidential palace Tuesday night broke through barbed wire around the building and hurled chairs and rocks at retreating police.

Officers lobbed tear gas back at them.

After initial clashes, police drew behind fences and protests were peaceful for several hours.

More violence broke out at the headquarters of the Freedom and Justice Party in Menia, south of Cairo. At least 19 protesters were injured, according to Mahmoud Amin, who is in charge of ambulance operations outside the palace.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/04/world/meast/egypt-protests/index.html

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Reply Protesters attack palace, party headquarters in Egypt (Original post)
oberliner Dec 2012 OP
Purveyor Dec 2012 #1
leftlibdem420 Dec 2012 #4
iandhr Dec 2012 #6
Kurska Dec 2012 #7
Alamuti Lotus Dec 2012 #10
Kurska Dec 2012 #12
JDPriestly Dec 2012 #17
leftlibdem420 Dec 2012 #20
Ford_Prefect Dec 2012 #2
alfredo Dec 2012 #3
Kurska Dec 2012 #5
riverwalker Dec 2012 #8
Alamuti Lotus Dec 2012 #9
Kurska Dec 2012 #13
Alamuti Lotus Dec 2012 #15
Kurska Dec 2012 #18
riverwalker Dec 2012 #11
Catherina Dec 2012 #16
David__77 Dec 2012 #14
dipsydoodle Dec 2012 #19

Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:14 PM

1. Anyone have a clue as to what happens if Morsi falls? If one thinks it will be one of israeli

/western influence...good luck with that.

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Response to Purveyor (Reply #1)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:53 PM

4. That would be disastrous...

 

The last Egyptian leader propped up by the Zionists and the West made billions of dollars off the back of the Egyptian people.

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Response to leftlibdem420 (Reply #4)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:59 PM

6. So Morsi trying to have absolute power when Egyptians want a democratic government...

...is okay with you?

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Response to leftlibdem420 (Reply #4)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:01 AM

7. "The Zionists" huh?

Gee I wonder who you are actually talking about.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #7)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:27 AM

10. yes, Mubarak enjoyed wide support from Israel and its backers in the US..

 

and those same people have rather consistently mourned his fall in the pages of much bathroom wiping material since then (less so lately, because Morsi is proving to be a somewhat acceptable replacement for their interests, though he is provoking too much interest and negative attention at the moment). What phrase for this situation would be acceptable to you?

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Response to Alamuti Lotus (Reply #10)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:08 AM

12. Well if they were talking about Israel, Israel would work wonderfully. ;3 n/t

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Response to Kurska (Reply #12)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 03:46 AM

17. Yes. If they had a real democracy like Israel with respect

for people of all religions in Israel, education as in Israel and the stability and innovation that would encourage foreign investment like Israel, Egypt could do very well. Perhaps they should ask Israel for some advice about how to structure their government. After all, there are people of different religions and backgrounds in the Israeli Knesset and they work in harmony, agreeing to disagree peacefully, in Israel. Egypt would do well to emulate learn from Israel.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #7)

Sat Dec 8, 2012, 04:11 AM

20. Morsi's a tyrant.

 

Are there really only two possible outcomes? I have no love for Morsi or for the religious extremists supporting him and would love to see him toppled by real democrats. I just think that replacing him someone who answers to Bibi and his crazy White supremcist sidekick will make things better. Israel let Mubarak and his death squads hide in the Sinai Peninsula during the revolution. The people of Egypt deserve better than a choice between the Shah and the Ayatollah. In this respect, we must all support their struggle.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:38 PM

2. Since the reaction is over the excessively conservative constitution and the power grab by Morsi

It will likely be some other arrangement. At least I hope so. The powers have in the past come from either the military or some version of the previous presidency. That may be done for the moment. No obvious leaders aligned with the protests as yet according to western MSM.

Have to wonder just how the Muslim Brotherhood is going to come out of this with any credibility after steering the constitution so far to the right of the voters.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:40 PM

3. There will be a churning of leadership before the revolution runs its course.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Tue Dec 4, 2012, 11:59 PM

5. When the seed you planted grows into a poisoned tree, you burn it down and start over n/t

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:17 AM

8. video

VIDEO: CSF troops abandon their posts after security barricades are breached
Presidential Palace

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:25 AM

9. the Muslim Brotherhood has discredited itself in a remarkably short period of time..

 

the opponents of the Ikhwan could not have hoped for a better scenario than the failure of the movement that is unfolding in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and Syria. They have built the movement up for 80 years for this moment--decades of collaborating in the anti-communist hysteria for naught!--, but have largely squandered it in less than one!

Khalifah Morsi is provoking so widespread opposition with his dictatorial policies which only continue to support the military, the richest Egyptians, US/Israel, the IMF, etc etc.. his provisional government, this pro-West, collaborationist dictatorship in waiting, seems to be finding itself in the midst of its proverbial "October", just a few months late.

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Response to Alamuti Lotus (Reply #9)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 01:12 AM

13. I was actually agreeing with you through that entire first paragraph, it was a magical moment I

thought would never come.

You managed to fix all that in the second, but it was fun while it lasted.

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Response to Kurska (Reply #13)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:28 AM

15. happy to oblige, I suppose...

 

For reasons I will have to explain to myself later, I'd like to pursue this.. nothing in the first part is contradicted in the second, except perhaps for a couple points:

* I obliquely compare Morsi to Kerensky (which suggests a great deal more if the line of thought is followed further)
* I suggest that the Ikhwan pseudo-dictatorship differs little from the Sadat-Mubarak regime that was toppled

The first point is a bit optimistic and needs to be interpreted in the knowledge that I view the events of October 1917 as one of the greatest events in human history, but was almost immediately squandered also (a combination of foreign invasion and Stalinist treason). To the best of my knowledge, there is not presently any analogous figure to titans like Lenin or Trotsky in Egypt at the present, but idea of a movement to 'complete' the initially aborted revolution cannot be ruled out. The "October" reverence and reference is not one that I expect agreement, so I am moving on.

The Sadat-Mubarak regime faced much of the same protests that the Ikhwan gov't does now--the latter merely hijacked the proceedings after being on the fence about them. This was both for their own benefit and the maintenance of the status quo--slightly re-arranged, but really just business as usual. Is this a point we still agree on? The Brotherhood relied on the patronage of rich Egyptians and foreign donors (heavily from Qatar, while the Saudis backed the Salafist sheikhs and businessmen) to sweep the elections, and continues to favor their class as much as the previous dictator had. This can be expected, as nothing short of a really genuine revolutionary movement (which the Brotherhood most certainly is *not*) would shake up the status quo overnight--but no attempt has been made, nor ever will.

They certainly have continued (under some foreign pressure) to favor the IMF and its enforcement of euphemistically-named 'austerity' measures in shaping the economy, to the detriment of the nation. Is this disputed?

The suggestion that the Ikwhan government remains as much of a pro-West/Israel pseudo-dictatorship as the fallen pharaoh can be disputed, but only on superficial grounds. The thaw in relations between the Ikhwan and the Islamic Republic (over which the Zionists frothed so much upon in publications barely worthwhile as toilet paper) seem to only be ceremonial, not substantial. The dispute over Camp David and Egyptian backing of the Saudi-led counterrevolutionary camp remain intractable issues.

Israelis and certain ex-Mossad translating services (if that's what you can fucking call them) have made much hay out of anti-semitic utterances by Brotherhood figures. Certain of their statements are indeed virulently anti-semitic and disgusting, but none of this prevent them from still being paradoxically pro-Israel. Hell, Sadat was an unrepentant nazi sympathizer and Abu Mazen spent his college years (possibly later) denying the Holocaust, but that did not stop either from being the most useful and subservient allies Israel has ever had. What this proves is that actions speak louder than words; on superficial grounds only can it be claimed that the Morsi regime is not pro-Israel.

The government still takes enormous sums of money from the United States and the corresponding influence that it buys, in spite of the absolute lack of popular or national interest. Camp David is off the table, despite the majority support of the population to revisit that extremely unpopular capitulation of previous dictators. No doubt part of the reason to continue taking this bribe money--(calling it what it is)--is to maintain the loyalty of the military class interests. Aside from supplanting their provisional position in the most outward manifestations of government, no attempt has (or will) been made to alter the privileged position that the generals hold.

The gov't also uses its influence with Brotherhood splinter groups in Gaza to continue to enforce the economic blockade and secure Israel's interests in other facets. The extent to which the latter act is performed will be disputed but again, only on superficial grounds and from a parallel universe where words trump action.

If you could respond with some detail, I'd appreciate. I'm trying to understand how you think, but it's hard to really get too far on that with the prevailing drive-by personal attacks amid brief replies that I usually get from you.

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Response to Alamuti Lotus (Reply #15)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 04:00 AM

18. My thinking is that young men and women didn't die in the streets for democracy so that a

fundamentalist Islamic dictatorship should emerge from the background and steal the nation after doing none of the work. I watched people earn their democracy with their blood, and I'm entirely supportive of them getting it. Political Islam is not in and of itself incompatible with democracy, but the Muslim Brotherhood certainly is. The Muslim Brotherhood has shown that it has no respect for the democratic process, outside of how they can use it to seize the greatest amount of power the quickest. I do not believe that is what all those good people died and fought for. The Egyptians deserve a parliamentary democracy that has a healthy division of power, peaceful elections and which protects a free/open society.

I don't view the matter as about Israel in the slightest. I think if you measure the revolution in terms of the eventual government's difference with Mubarak's on Israel you're missing the point. I'm confident any government elected in Egypt outside of perhaps a Salafist theocracy will maintain peace with Israel, if only because Egypt has nothing to gain from open conflict with Israel. Egypt's economy is already weak, and frankly I don't believe it would survive a war with a regional power like Israel. These aren't the 70's. Who would be the benefactor that will provide military equipment to an openly hostile and anti-Israel Egypt? Where would the revenue come from to finance such a stance after the American military aid is yanked away? I'm pro-Israel, I don't deny that, but that isn't the only issue that defines me as a person. Mursi could emerge from the presidential palace wearing a yarmulke, waving Israeli flags and singing the Hatikva; I would still think he was a tyrannical piece of human trash and should be replaced. Peace bought in American Dollars from dictators never lasts anyway, why bother?

I don't care if IMF is told to go fuck itself. All I want is for Egypt to get a real and functioning democracy like it deserves, and the Muslim Brotherhood will most certainly not deliver that.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 12:28 AM

11. video "To the Western Media"

few hours ago

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Response to riverwalker (Reply #11)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 03:35 AM

16. Great video n/t

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 02:15 AM

14. Morsi, the people's choice.

Morsi's party won each election since Mubarak's fall. The liberal elements that are protesting have little support.

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Response to oberliner (Original post)

Wed Dec 5, 2012, 05:03 AM

19. Egypt's Mursi back at palace after night of protests

(Reuters) - Egyptian President Mohamed Mursi returned to work in Cairo on Wednesday, although scores of protesters angered by his drive to push through a new constitution were still blocking one gate of the presidential palace.

The Islamist leader left the palace in the northern Cairo district of Heliopolis on Tuesday evening as tens of thousands of demonstrators surged around it, clashing briefly with police.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/12/05/uk-egypt-politics-mursi-idUKBRE8B409O20121205

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