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Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:13 PM

 

Official: US ship fires on boat off Dubai, 1 dead.

Source: AP

Things are heating up. Expect gas prices to rise.

Read more: http://www.thenewstribune.com/2012/07/16/2216203/official-us-ship-fires-on-boat.html

52 replies, 6606 views

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Arrow 52 replies Author Time Post
Reply Official: US ship fires on boat off Dubai, 1 dead. (Original post)
permatex Jul 2012 OP
grahamhgreen Jul 2012 #1
valerief Jul 2012 #6
Iliyah Jul 2012 #2
Renew Deal Jul 2012 #3
permatex Jul 2012 #4
Proud Liberal Dem Jul 2012 #10
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #14
panzerfaust Jul 2012 #44
nadinbrzezinski Jul 2012 #13
nichomachus Jul 2012 #5
Posteritatis Jul 2012 #7
hack89 Jul 2012 #8
Psephos Jul 2012 #9
may3rd Jul 2012 #20
panzerfaust Jul 2012 #41
Lurks Often Jul 2012 #11
cliss Jul 2012 #12
permatex Jul 2012 #15
may3rd Jul 2012 #21
permatex Jul 2012 #22
sarisataka Jul 2012 #23
turtlerescue1 Jul 2012 #16
sarisataka Jul 2012 #17
turtlerescue1 Jul 2012 #18
sarisataka Jul 2012 #19
Comrade Grumpy Jul 2012 #24
permatex Jul 2012 #25
dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #26
permatex Jul 2012 #27
Cerridwen Jul 2012 #28
permatex Jul 2012 #29
melm00se Jul 2012 #30
permatex Jul 2012 #31
melm00se Jul 2012 #32
permatex Jul 2012 #33
dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #34
Lurks Often Jul 2012 #35
sarisataka Jul 2012 #36
Nihil Jul 2012 #39
sarisataka Jul 2012 #46
permatex Jul 2012 #37
Ash_F Jul 2012 #40
permatex Jul 2012 #42
Ash_F Jul 2012 #49
Baclava Jul 2012 #38
panzerfaust Jul 2012 #43
Baclava Jul 2012 #45
sarisataka Jul 2012 #48
sarisataka Jul 2012 #47
Ash_F Jul 2012 #50
Ash_F Jul 2012 #51
dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #52

Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:19 PM

1. It's high time seniors on food stamps pay for another unfunded war....

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Response to grahamhgreen (Reply #1)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:43 PM

6. Billionaire tax cuts get first dibs. You know, the poverty creators. nt

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:25 PM

2. Prayers for the falling one.

Get rid of the speculators, although the greedy oil people need some excuse to make more profit.

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:33 PM

3. Weird story

I wonder what they thought the boat did. I bet it "got too close."

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:40 PM

4. SOP is to warn any closing vessel

 

to identify itself and warn it to turn away. If it gets within a certain distance and ignores warnings, then force is justified. I would like to know more about the boat. There should be more info in the near future.

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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:20 PM

10. Think USS Cole 2000

Last edited Wed Jul 18, 2012, 11:27 AM - Edit history (1)

That did a lot of damage and killed several sailors.

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #10)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:53 PM

14. Sailors, sea, navy

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Response to Proud Liberal Dem (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:07 AM

44. Sailors

 



17 KIA, 39 WIA.


US Navy Warships have sailors and marines. No soldiers.

Bush-2 made that error in a campaign speech at Naval Station Everett during his first run for office: Revealing his basic ignorance of actual military matters.

Sadly, this was overlooked by most.







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Response to Renew Deal (Reply #3)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:53 PM

13. This



Been SOP since the Cole was attacked this way.

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:43 PM

5. Could have been pirates

Those are the type of boats the pirates use.

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Response to nichomachus (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 12:59 PM

7. Or confused for same, yeah

But one group of pirates or another fails to pay their brain bill and attacks US warships about every other year in that area. It usually only goes well for the gene pool, but it's just often enough that naval vessels can get nervous.

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Response to nichomachus (Reply #5)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:16 PM

8. Smugglers are the more likely answer

there is a long history of smuggling in the region - when I was in the Gulf in 1987 every night it was like the races as high speed boats crisscrossed the Gulf.

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:19 PM

9. Utter fools. The USN has not forgotten the Cole bombing. n/t

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Response to Psephos (Reply #9)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:51 PM

20. I agree

 

Better one dead fisherman than another black eye for giving them the benefit of the doubt,
and "the usual suspects" a morale boost in the name of their gods



http://eightiesclub.tripod.com/id344.htm

of course, the uptick at the gas pumps will continue even though it was
'an isolated incident'

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Response to Psephos (Reply #9)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 08:48 AM

41. 17 Dead: What USS Cole got for showing restraint

 



"The U.S. crew repeatedly attempted to warn the vessel's operators to turn away from their deliberate approach. When those efforts failed to deter the approaching vessel, the security team on the Rappahannock fired rounds from a .50-caliber machine gun..."

One hopes that the USN is telling the truth this time.

On the other hand, one might recall Iran Air Flight 655 destroyed by the poorly trained, poorly led, and panicked sailors of USS Vincennes killing about 300 civilians.

And, of course, then there was the Second Gulf of Tonkin incident in which two US destroyers - Maddox and Turner Joy - bravely battled and defeated radar ghost images and which LBJ (President Lyndon Johnson (D Tx), for those who are just joining us) used as an excuse for a huge escalation of the Vietnam War.







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Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:30 PM

11. Based on the article the

ship followed standard peace time Rules of Engagement for a ship: audible & visual warnings and when the boat continued to close, they fired upon it.

The USNS Rappahannock is a oiler/supply ship and is listed as having a top speed of 20 knots, it wouldn't be able to outrun the speedboat.

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 01:37 PM

12. According to the Swedish press,

the smaller boat was "moving towards the US ship". I'm not sure if there were any warnings.

I wonder what Dubai will have to say if this was just an ordinary fishing boat. ::yeah, trigger happy sounds about right

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Response to cliss (Reply #12)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 02:04 PM

15. Wrong

 

The ship followed all peace time rule of engagement, the craft was warned several times and when it didn't alter course, the ship took defensive actions.

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Response to permatex (Reply #15)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 06:57 PM

21. Right

 

....some people don't let facts get in the way of their pre drawn conclusions


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Stark_incident

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Response to may3rd (Reply #21)


Response to permatex (Reply #22)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 09:02 PM

23. USS Stark and USS Cole...

show the folly of believing small craft or single planes are harmless and there is always 'A little more time to wait'

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 02:36 PM

16. With all that is making new, THIS is worth fearing.

Is it the 5th Fleet stationed at the United Arabs Emerites? Democracy Now did a report from there, the next broadcast the reporter interviewed a Ships Capt about the USN ship. It took to the next night for big media to do any reporting.

This was inevitable, Iran really wants a "P------ contest" with U.S. Pouring another gallon of fuel to that arid area, and holding the match to the side.

Thanks permatex, now have to turn on the news...

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Response to turtlerescue1 (Reply #16)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 03:03 PM

17. The 5th Fleet is based at

Naval Support Activity Bahrain, not in the UAE. I believe 5th Fleet ships will often make call at Dubai or refuel there.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #17)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 03:22 PM

18. Thanks sarisataka

Fear this really is a powder keg today or soon.

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Response to turtlerescue1 (Reply #18)

Mon Jul 16, 2012, 03:36 PM

19. No problem

the brinkmanship here is just a path to eventual war.

So far everyone has been lucky that Iran has been willing to back down every time after claiming 'victory', like when Ronnie blew up old oil rigs, they had good footage of their boats 'buzzing' US ship or when they 'forced' our carrier out of the gulf.
I worry when they think one of their toys equals one of our toys and they do something stupid. Israel is not as patient as we are and while they do listen to us a lot, they are nobodies puppet.

I am glad to be retired so the odds of visiting that corner of the world again are remote.

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 02:07 AM

24. We killed an Indian fisherman and wounded three others.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/dubai-us-navy-ship-kills-indian-fisherman/271730-3.html

My condolences to the latest victims of paranoid imperialism.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #24)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:25 AM

25. Everything reported so far indicates

 

that the firing was justified, numerous warnings were ignored by the small craft. It's sad that a life was lost but they should have heeded the warnings and turned away.
The U.S. Navy will never forget the lessons of the USS Cole.

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Response to permatex (Reply #25)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:27 AM

26. Preassumes they spoke English

.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #26)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:37 AM

27. Hailing them is not the only warning

 

whistles, spotlights. Every attempt is made to warn off approaching craft, force is used as a last resort. The loss of life is tragic but after what happened to the Cole in 2000, the Navy is undestandably wary of approaching unidentified craft.
Any Navy would have acted in the same manner.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #26)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:53 AM

28. "Preassumes" they only used English

for the verbal warnings.

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Response to Cerridwen (Reply #28)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 09:11 AM

29. Correct

 

It is my understanding that several languages are used to warn off approaching craft.
Should have stated that in my earlier post.

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Response to Comrade Grumpy (Reply #24)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:29 AM

30. what does a pirate look like?

Can you tell the difference between a boat of pirates and boat of fisherman?

if you can, I am sure that you could find gainful employment (at a very good wage) consulting with ship masters and owners that operate off the coasts of Africa, Indonesia, Viet Nam and other pirate hot spots around the globe.

remember, the Rappahannock can transport 150K barrels of fuel oil and jet fuel. Think of the environmental damage if she were damaged or destroyed.

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Response to melm00se (Reply #30)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:34 AM

31. Also a suicide bomber

 

I didn't even think about the cargo it was carrying, your right, it would be an ecological catastrophe if somehow a suicide bomber was able to blow up the ship.

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Response to permatex (Reply #31)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 10:55 AM

32. there is a very interesting

(albeit a little dated having been printed almost a decade ago) book entitled "Dangerous Waters: Modern Piracy and Terror on the High Seas". The author posits one of the biggest threats out there is if pirates were to hit a VLCC in some of the congested chipping choke points and leave ship to it's own devices after killing, kidnapping or incapacitating the crew.

Imagine losing a cargo of 2.1 million barrels of oil in an area as confined as the Malacca Straits.

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Response to melm00se (Reply #32)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 11:03 AM

33. I read that book

 

and the scenario the author painted is indeed terrifying. The untold damage it would do for decades is breathtaking.
Hell, their still dealing with the Exxon Valdez disaster, and that was in 1989.

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 04:42 PM

34. US ship gave no warning, says Indian survivor - Hindustan Times

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #34)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 06:12 PM

35. Does anybody really expect the men in the fishing boat to say

yeah, we screwed up, it was all our fault?



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Response to Lurks Often (Reply #35)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 06:50 PM

36. Some expect that

and would rather believe a fisherman than the Navy, who has an SOP for everything, including how to wipe. They are willing to ignore that the ship would have records of the actions they took and many ships and shore stations would be able to hear to radio warnings, or lack thereof.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #36)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:21 AM

39. Yeah ... the USS Vincennes also had a SOP for everything and kept records of the actions they took.

Not that any of the "fuck 'em they're only foreigners" posters around here
would care to remember such an event ...

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Response to Nihil (Reply #39)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:41 PM

46. They did, it was well recorded

and clearly some mistakes were made. However the Iranians said they should have know because it was a daily scheduled flight yet,

they {USS Vincennes} were being attacked by eight Iranian gun boats. Vincennes was defending themselves from this attack when the plane was shot at with two standard missiles. Crucially, the Vincennes misidentified the Iranian Airbus as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter aircraft. A radio warning had been sent to the aircraft on the international air distress frequency.


Why were the Iranians attacking a US vessel, known for its strong AA defenses, right at the time they will have a civilian aircraft passing overhead?

I look to see who has more to gain/loose by telling the truth. We are trying to keep as many countries on our side so Iran can be isolated without violence. Lying about shooting a fishing boat, very easily verified through third parties as was the USS Vincennes incident, will put countries in the Iranian camp more than ours.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #34)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:14 PM

37. I see

 

one person says no warnings given as opposed to a whole ship full of people and probably recordings and you believe the one person.
I'll believe the Navy over one person.

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Response to permatex (Reply #37)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 07:46 AM

40. "A whole ship full of people" have not said anything.

What you read was from a military spokesman who was not there. The survivor's name has been given and he has been directly quoted. Therefore he is the only primary source available at this time.

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #40)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:19 AM

42. All involved would already have been interviewed

 

and those interviews sent to the Pentagon. Plus there will be video and audio recordings of the whole incident. The Navy records all radio transmissions, bottom line is that the small craft ignored numerous warnings including shots across the bow. The ship was well within it's right to defend itself against a possible threat.

What else do you expect the survivor to say, sorry folks, we fucked up?
Gimme a break, I think I'll belive the Navy on this one.
But you go ahead and believe what you will.

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Response to permatex (Reply #42)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:05 AM

49. What else do you expect the shooter to say, "sorry folks, we fucked up"? Gimme a break

You made several presumptions about what you think should have happened and presented them as fact. That is misleading to people who may not have read the article. The "ship full of people" was a complete fabrication on your part and only your part. Even the spokesman did not say that.

This is a principal of journalism as well as investigation: No primary source is less credible than a real primary source. Read enough stories over the years and you will see that this is how things tend to turn out. No one from the ship has come forward to say anything and no video has been provided. What will you say if, in a couple of months, some sailors speak out and it conflicts with the official story as has been so common in the past? The Navy is still conducting an investigation so obviously even they don't think the matter is closed, despite the initial response. What will you say if the official story changes, which is also quite common?

Believe what YOU will, this post not for you but for people who might be mislead by your nonsense.

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Response to dipsydoodle (Reply #34)

Tue Jul 17, 2012, 08:15 PM

38. Did they miss the warning shots from a 50cal machinegun across their bow?

"The crew aboard the Navy ship sent out repeated warnings, including radio calls, flashing lights, lasers and ultimately warning shots from a 50-caliber machine gun."

"When the boat failed to heed the warnings, the crew was ordered to open fire with the 50-caliber gun."

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/16/12769508-us-vessel-fires-on-boat-in-gulf-killing-one-and-injuring-three?lite

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Response to Baclava (Reply #38)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 09:26 AM

43. Depending upon wind direction & sea surface: YES

 

It is quite possible to miss the relatively small water columns from .50 cal rounds. If the small craft was upwind, hearing either a hail or the firing of light arms could go unheard.

Depending upon the lighting and sea surface, the latter could also be unseen.

Presumably though, the ship would have sounded its siren or ship's whistle - either of which can be heard for miles upwind in anything short of a gale.

It is not beyond possibility that the guys in the boat could have been completely oblivious, or they could have been playing at jihad.

In any event, speaking as ex-navy and given what happened to USS Cole I think that the crew of Rappahannock made the right decision to fire on the oncoming small craft - especially given that Rappahannock is an oiler & would not have survived an explosion the size of which USS Cole suffered.





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Response to panzerfaust (Reply #43)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 10:31 AM

45. maybe they didn't recognize it as a military vessel



USNS RAPPAHANNOCK (T-AO 204)
Fleet Replenishment Oiler

• Length: 677 feet, 6 inches
• Beam: 97 feet, 6 inches
• Draft: 35 feet
• Displacement: 40,900 long tons



http://www.msc.navy.mil/inventory/ships.asp?ship=146

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Response to Baclava (Reply #45)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:46 PM

48. The Persian Gulf has a lot of military traffic

every sailor in the region can identify military vessels. They see them from many countries at sea and in the ports.

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Response to panzerfaust (Reply #43)

Wed Jul 18, 2012, 01:44 PM

47. Correct me if I am wrong

It is quite possible to miss the relatively small water columns from .50 cal rounds. If the small craft was upwind, hearing either a hail or the firing of light arms could go unheard.


You have never been shot at with a .50 cal? Were you around when they fired those suckers?

The warning shot had to have been fired when the boat was between 150 yards and 900 yards. They is the reported distance from sighting to engagement. You can't miss an M2 firing if you are that close.

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:15 AM

50. "Usually, we know alarms and sirens are sounded by ships. But there were no warnings.”

Sounds like the fishermen were used to working around Naval vessels since they had a certain expectation.

“When we came close, we slowed down to let pass to avoid any accidents. Once we crossed them from behind, they started firing at us. Usually, we know alarms and sirens are sounded by ships. But there were no warnings.”

http://world.time.com/2012/07/18/u-s-navy-shooting-incident-india-calls-for-an-investigation-in-the-u-a-e/?xid=gonewsedit

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Response to permatex (Original post)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:24 AM

51. Investigators say the boat did alter course

In the interview, Tamim said: "…investigation shows the small vessel was on its right course and it stopped when it saw the navy vessel. It tried to change route so it would not look like it was attacking. That should have given the navy a clear indication that it was not dangerous. Whoever made the decision to shoot made a clear misjudgement."

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/dubai-police-us-naval-ship-crew-firing-on-indian-fishermen/1/209150.html

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Response to Ash_F (Reply #51)

Thu Jul 19, 2012, 07:35 AM

52. a clear indication

mooning over the side of the boat might've have got their message across.

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