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Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:01 PM

 

The Problem Isn't Guns... It's CONSERVATIVES with Guns.

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by tammywammy (a host of the General Discussion forum).


Think about this, please. In a nutshell:

Here on DU, you will find the most socially responsible, safety-minded, and conscientious gun owners and advocates anywhere on the internet. I've put this to the test. Had I access to the advanced search function, I'd have one of the links right here, but if anyone wants, I'll explain it and do the digging anyway.

I know that pro-2nd DUers are an easy target because they are the closest at hand, but if anyone should decide to take an honest look at the gun violence in this nation, they will find that all liberals, including the pro-2nd ones (it's more complicated than 'pro-2nd', but for the sake of brevity...) are vested in ending the strife, corruption, and lies that lead to such tragedies.

We know damn well that Trayvon was shot because his killer was afraid of black people. We know damn well that there is an active element in the media and woven into our social networks that exacerbates those fears in people. Trayvon did not die simply because someone had a gun...

He died because a "CONSERVATIVE" had a gun.

When it comes to guns, the grown-up, thoughtful, and reverent attitude towards weapons of such power radiates from liberal types that know what they are dealing with and how important it is to educate people and relieve the pressures that cause desperate people, including misguided conservatives, to resort to deathly violence.

You have to travel a total 180º from that attitude to arrive at the ultimately childish, hyper-macho, and absolutely naïve attitude of abject disregard for the potency and potential for horror guns can cause that we find all the time in today's 'conservative' gun owner.

How difficult is it to actually point to the 'conservative' roots and ideologies that have compelled virtually every single act of violence that did not otherwise have a money or personal motive?

Let's put it this way: a stoned squirrel could figure it out.

I'd like to think that DU knows this already. Not because we're all necessarily 'stoned' or 'squirrely'... or some combination thereof, but because it has been obvious to all of us that the rejection of a civilized approach is entirely the method of 'conservatives'.

THIS is what we have to be afraid of. Not 'Guns', but the mêmes and propaganda that foster hatred and foment violence in people with guns who are too stupid to own them. We can't keep guns out of the hands of anyone who wants them without denying those who truly need them. If we tried to impose draconian gun restrictions I can guarantee you that the rabid conservative gun-nuts would have channels to obtain them, while the lawful liberals would be (slightly) more likely to turn them over. It won't work.

In the meanwhile, what this says is that we have to educate people about the danger of conservatives with guns. We have to get people to understand that the conservative mindset is based on fear and they are somewhat more likely to be carrying guns. We have to instruct people that dealing with a conservative is often like dealing with an animal that is already afraid of an unfamiliar environment and will likely respond with violence when clearly out of their intellectual, social, or conceptual depth.

I'm saying this without one ounce of humor or sarcasm. These people are DANGEROUS, and we should make sure that everyone is AWARE of that.

In the meanwhile, if anyone can think of any plausible law that would keep guns out of the hands of most 'conservatives', I'd love to hear it.

I have a few ideas myself.

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Replies to this discussion thread
Arrow 34 replies Author Time Post
Reply The Problem Isn't Guns... It's CONSERVATIVES with Guns. (Original post)
The Doctor. Mar 2012 OP
sadbear Mar 2012 #1
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #2
sadbear Mar 2012 #3
baldguy Mar 2012 #5
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #10
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #11
Johnny Rico Mar 2012 #7
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #22
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #9
BOHICA12 Mar 2012 #30
Skittles Mar 2012 #4
petronius Mar 2012 #12
2ndAmForComputers Mar 2012 #20
socialindependocrat Mar 2012 #6
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #15
socialindependocrat Mar 2012 #33
randr Mar 2012 #21
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #24
johnd83 Mar 2012 #8
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #14
johnd83 Mar 2012 #17
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #27
seeviewonder Mar 2012 #13
The Magistrate Mar 2012 #16
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #18
jillan Mar 2012 #19
randr Mar 2012 #23
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #25
mike_c Mar 2012 #26
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #28
mike_c Mar 2012 #31
Hoyt Mar 2012 #29
The Doctor. Mar 2012 #32
tammywammy Mar 2012 #34

Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:04 PM

1. And for pro-2nd, a bushelful of bad apples ruins nothing

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Response to sadbear (Reply #1)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:07 PM

2. Meaning what, precisely?

 


If you're saying what I think, then thanks much for proving one of my points.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:11 PM

3. Let's hear your ideas for keeping guns out of conservative hands first.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:15 PM

5. *crickets*

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Response to baldguy (Reply #5)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:18 PM

10. If you could please explain what 'crickets' you speak of...

 

It would be much appreciated.

Thanks!


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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #10)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:19 PM

11. 'Crickets'

 

Seriously Doc, what did you expect?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:16 PM

7. Seconded. What are these ideas that would keep guns out of conservative hands?

 

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Response to Johnny Rico (Reply #7)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:47 PM

22. I apologize if this is tricky...

 

But there is no serious way to keep guns out of the hand of anyone.

What I did there is sometimes referred to as 'tongue in cheek' or some such. The reality is that every time we create 'gatekeepers', we encourage corruption. Thus the bit in the OP about 'conservatives always having channels' to get guns.

Was there something you really wanted to know, or was that the top mystery?

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:17 PM

9. Start with an MMPI 2.

 

Then do a full evaluation to see if someone has irrational fears or prejudices.

That would screen 98% of 'conservatives'.

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Response to sadbear (Reply #3)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:11 PM

30. What about ...

 

race, ethnicity, sex, religious affiliation, marital status, political affiliation, and national origin do you not understand? Civil rights are civil rights. Just an inconvenience for some I guess. Now if everyone has to give them up, lead on McDuff but be careful - there be some serious loonies out there.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:12 PM

4. it's gun nuts with guns

gun nuts are paranoid

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Response to Skittles (Reply #4)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:23 PM

12. Can you give us a succinct and precise definition of what you mean by "gun nut"?

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Response to petronius (Reply #12)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:36 PM

20. Let me try.

Somebody who is extreme (aka nuts) about guns, as opposed to simply being pro-RKBA.

Not everybody who's pro-RKBA is a gun nut.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:15 PM

6. You Go Doc!!!

I try to present information from the NRA side. I try to present the logic
behind some of their philosophies.

I'll tell you one thing - A body can get tore up in this place!

I hate lying and spinning and propaganda and I know the Repukes can
dish it out. So far, the NRA promotes a lot of stuff about Obama doing
things behind the scenes but as a group, most of their decisions try to
protect the 2nd ammendment.

A lot of the stuff people are pissed about are the local/state laws
not the NRA stuff.

Anyway, I look forward to more discussion but hopefully with more pacts
and data and less spin. Let's compare notes...

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Response to socialindependocrat (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:28 PM

15. The NRA is not a laudable foundation.

 


But, if you have evidence they are less a tool of manufacturers and more the guardians of the right to protect oneself, let's have it.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #15)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:19 PM

33. Sometimes I just can't get a break...

frequently someone has to piss on my post - but let me take you up on your offer.

Way back in 1958 my father got me a BB gun and I learned to shoot.
In 1967 I was in the R.O.T.C. in highschool and we had a rifle team.
The Col. had us take tests to become junior members of the NRA.

I have been tought, trained, helped and supported by the NRA and friends.

Today, I can see why you would say that the NRA is a lobby for gun manufacturerd.
They are...

But I have the side of me who remembers being trained and nurtured
in the safe handling of firearms.

I hate lobbys and think they should be abolished because they are
just a means of bribing our congress to do what's best for big business.
But, I guess, what would be left would be the part that trains people to
handle guns safely and that, I think, is a good thing.

Go ahead - dump on my childhood!

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Response to socialindependocrat (Reply #6)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:45 PM

21. You would have a hard time convincing me the NRA is not a lobby for gun manufacturers

and only uses the 2nd Amendment as camo for that purpose.
I am a proud gun owner, have been most of my life. When I hear the crazy shit that many people come out with, claiming the NRA as authority, I have no doubts who I would call "gun nuts". I know people who spent their life savings on ammo 3 years ago thinking that Obama was coming down their driveways to take away their guns on his own.
I have no problems with citizens of any community creating laws that regulate the purchase and use of weapons by people of questionable character. From what I have heard so far the guy in Florida would have had a hard time convincing anyone of his lawful intentions.
Any regulation is a very sticky wicket and unfortunately it takes someone getting hurt or killed before we know how dangerous some people become with a gun. I do not have anywhere near the answer as to how we can solve the issues of uncontrolled violence in America, from either the perpetrators issue or to peoples need to defend themselves. I just believe that somehow within our great system of democracy we will come to a solution that most of us can stomach, short of mandatory life sentences for unlawful uses of fire arms.
I place my right to "the pursuit of happiness" as my greatest freedom of all. Unfortunately this part of our Constitution is less defended than others.

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Response to randr (Reply #21)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:50 PM

24. Thank you.

 

For exemplifying what the OP means about 'thoughtful, responsible gun-owners'.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:17 PM

8. Can we replace "conservative" with the more general term "idiots"?

I don't think all conservatives are idiots that can't handle the responsibility. How is it you can't drive a car, fly a plane, or even scuba dive without a license that requires classroom and practical training, yet you can buy a gun whose sole purpose is to dispatch death and injury at a distance without one? Yes, guns exist and they are protected. That doesn't mean every idiot should be able to have one.

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Response to johnd83 (Reply #8)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:26 PM

14. Conservatives are more dangerous than Liberals.

 

Because they tend to be less civilized.

We should educate people about this.

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #14)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:33 PM

17. I think it depends person to person

We tend to think of conservatives as a bloc, but just like liberals they are all individuals. I do agree that conservative culture has taken a really ugly turn as of late.

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Response to johnd83 (Reply #17)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:58 PM

27. On average, conservatives are more likely to abandon civility.

 

By far.

You might want to believe otherwise, but the proof is everywhere. Fox uses fear-based messages to control and direct their audience. There's a reason that they have millions of viewers.

Those people possess a fear-based psyche and are easily manipulated because of it.

I'm talking 'tendencies' here, and those tendencies are STRONG.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:23 PM

13. I consider myself quite liberal and I have been

a contributing member of DU for about 3 years now. I love the time I spend with other DUers even if we aren't in person. That being said, I own guns. I love shooting them and as a beginning collector, I love the hobby. I understand why some people aren't thrilled that others (including DUers) own guns, but that doesn't change anything for me. I am responsible with my guns and I always will be. I just ask that fellow DUers be open-minded when it comes to responsible gun owners.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:30 PM

16. Hell, Doctor, The Problem Is Conservatives

With guns or without....

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Response to The Magistrate (Reply #16)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:36 PM

18. This is understood.

 

You would agree then, that the problem is compounded when we put the two together?

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:36 PM

19. How do you know that Zimmerman was a conservative? Did you see his voter id?

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Response to jillan (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:48 PM

23. The reports of Zimmerman's frequent calls to 911

indicate an unbalanced mental condition. I am not sure I would make a leap to call that "conservative". Certainly it should have raised red flags with local authorities.

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Response to jillan (Reply #19)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:52 PM

25. He has a fear-based psyche.

 

I'd bet my DU profile he votes for 'conservatives'.

I'm wrong, I'm gone. That might be fine with me. I know there'd be a party in a few forums.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:56 PM

26. the problem isn't guns, it's gun owners....

I'm talking about a special class of gun owner, for the most part. Not hunters who keep their weapons in locked gun safes with trigger locks and ammunition stored separately. Rather, I'm talking about people who carry non-sporting weapons for "self defense" and the like.

They are the first to protest any infringement of their right to own and use deadly weapons, yet EVERY SINGLE GUN CRIME has a gun owner at it's heart and-- at least at that moment-- the kind of gun owner I'm talking about. Somehow we have no problem distinguishing the problems inherent in allowing the nuclear industry to regulate itself, or of permitting the police department to investigate itself, yet we listen to the desires and "needs" of gun owners and wannabe gun owners when we need to debate whether to regulate gun ownership, despite their having a clear conflict of interest AND being the source of every single gun related crime and needless gun related death.

And you know what motivates most of them?

Fear.

Plain, old, loose bowel cowardice. They're afraid of pain, they're afraid of confrontation, they're afraid of embarrassment, and they're afraid, in many cases, of people whom they perceive as different, or threatening, or weird.

Go to the DU gungeon and try to have a rational discussion about gun regulation. You will be shocked, if you've never done it before. The most vocal defenders of gun ownership cite the need for self defense over and over, yet most readily admit to never having actually needed to defend themselves with deadly force. Yet they still fear the possibility of "attack," or "home invasion" so much that they feel the need to protect themselves from it constantly. Confident people don't go around worrying about the need for protection all the time-- their lack of irrational fear is sufficient. Only cowards worry about protecting themselves from a world they perceive as inherently violent and challenging.

Yes, sometimes the world is dangerous, but rational people accept the risks of daily life and work to mitigate them rather than living in fear and anticipation of them. Yes, that means bad things sometime happen to good people. In other contexts, we call that "normal life."

I have had conversations with gun owners in which I've tried to determine where the line is that separates the need for killing from other forms of self defense, and gun owners are nearly ALWAYS more inclined to move that line toward violence than away from it. Would you shoot someone for trying to shoot you? OK. Has that ever happened? Would you shoot someone who is threatening you with a knife? Does it make any difference knowing that you might get cut, but if you resist-- or run away, or simply stay out of range-- it's much less likely that you'll be killed or even seriously harmed? OK. Would you shoot someone who hit you? With a club? With their hand? Would you shoot someone who threatened to hit you? Would you shoot someone who argued with you if you didn't know them, but they're big and scary? Would you shoot somebody who plopped down drunkenly on the subway seat next to you and began loudly demanding that you let them have your lunch money? Would you shoot someone you see walking home at night through your neighborhood who doesn't look like he belongs there? What if they were cutting through your back yard? In the dark?

Most people have no trouble understanding that most of those scenarios will likely result in non-fatal outcomes UNLESS someone brings a gun to the party. Gun owners routinely defend their right to shoot people simply because they perceive them as threatening, or because otherwise they might sustain a black eye or a bruised ego.

Sometimes gun owners fear property loss even more than the likelihood of personal defense. Even liberal democratic gun owners-- presumably that's the only kind DU attracts-- often cite the importance of defending their property from "attack" or theft. I think the willingness to kill or maim someone to avoid the personal disappointment of property loss or damage says a lot about a person, little of it good. Those of us who have been the victims of property theft or vandalism can attest that it's unpleasant, it hurts one's pride more than anything ("How DARE they just come into my house and take what they want?!"), and I'll bet that just about every one of us has indulged in revenge fantasies. Gun owners PREPARE for revenge fantasies.

I sincerely believe that most folks who buy guns for "self defense" are the last people who should ever own weapons. There are nearly always better ways to protect one's self, and any way that starts by lowering the probability of killing someone is inherently a better way.

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Response to mike_c (Reply #26)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:05 PM

28. Here on DU, you will find the most socially responsible, safety-minded, and conscientious gun owners

 


I hate repeating myself, but there you have it.

See... what you think of as 'contention' is more complicated than 'an aversion to gun control'. No, it's an aversion to crap that won't work or more of the same crap that isn't enforced properly to begin with.

I believe self-defense is an issue of proper connection to the human super-consciousness. That doesn't mean that guns don't have a place in that dynamic.

Meanwhile, neither I, nor anyone who believes in the right to self-defense, would deny a beset and infirm man or woman that right if they are under legitimate threat.

There's a single question that separates us. Would you like to hear it?

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Response to The Doctor. (Reply #28)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:12 PM

31. shoot....

Pun intended.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:07 PM

29. Exactly. But those who can't walk out of their house without a gun, don't care.


As long as they have their guns, the Zimmermans and Loughners are just the price we have to pay to coddle people who need to learn how to interact in public without a gun or two in their waistband.

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Response to Hoyt (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:18 PM

32. Or maybe,

 

They are the price we have to pay so that beaten women have a chance to survive their exes?

They are the price we have to pay so that seniors aren't seen as 'easy' targets for home invaders?

They are the price we pay for the hundred-thousand to over a million people that are saved by a defensive gun use in this nation every year?


Tell you what, I'm TOTALLY on board for the banning of guns. No shit. You know why? Because I know damn well that all the 'lawful' citizens would become sheep and keeping guns from people would be the same joke that the 'War on Drugs' told us too many times.

You want REAL violence in this country?

Ban Guns.

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Response to The Doctor. (Original post)

Mon Mar 19, 2012, 09:23 PM

34. Please repost in Gun Control & RKBA

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